For some reason these types of rifles are my favorite - may be its genetic... My brothers all love them as well. My next rifle purchase will be Bushmaster's version. I loved the FAMAS, and the SA-80 When I was across the pond I had chance to try both. The Steyer AUG is a dream - spendy as all get out, but probably worth it. I have fired one several times, but haven't decided yet if it worth it to me. I have seen a bullpup'd muzzle loader. It looked pretty cool, but that was about it. Are there any folks here with bullpup exerience? I am interested in hearing about the Bushmaster, as I will have to lose money if it sucks.
Bullpups
- Thread starter Kodiac
- Start date
Kodiac,
Haven't shot the SA-80 and I heard that they have problems with parts breakage. I recall examining one and it struck me that it was a repackaged Armalite AR-180.
Funny how bull pups haven't caught on in the LE world. You'd think it would be in demand as an entry weapon. Say you couldn't approach with a marked unit and had to drive up in a small mail truck (going postal) where space is at a premium.
I think bullpups are quite viable, especially since we don't do bayonet charges in the civilian world (like the fusiliers, grenadiers and rifle equipped jaegers of the 1700s - I'd run at the sight of cold steel).
Haven't shot the SA-80 and I heard that they have problems with parts breakage. I recall examining one and it struck me that it was a repackaged Armalite AR-180.
Funny how bull pups haven't caught on in the LE world. You'd think it would be in demand as an entry weapon. Say you couldn't approach with a marked unit and had to drive up in a small mail truck (going postal) where space is at a premium.
I think bullpups are quite viable, especially since we don't do bayonet charges in the civilian world (like the fusiliers, grenadiers and rifle equipped jaegers of the 1700s - I'd run at the sight of cold steel).
The AR-180? I am not familiar with it.
The bullpup configuration I think is ideal, even for longer gun. It can give you the option of going with a full length barrel, yet still keep the overall length useable. This would be great in shotgun form for turkey hunters in one season, and goose hunters in another - with the same gun. Mossberg's Bullpuped 500 is a rare find now days... it probably didn't do as well as it could have, if it was better made. It struck me as a bit chintsy.
The question of shortening the barrel and loosing velocity would be moot - instead the question would be "If I dropped in a barrel two inches longer, what would be my ballistic GAIN?"
And you could go the other way, make it SUPER SHORT and then you would have... well things like the FN P-90... which is not bad at all. But imagine a version just a tad bigger, and chambered for .308! That would be very cool.
The bullpup configuration I think is ideal, even for longer gun. It can give you the option of going with a full length barrel, yet still keep the overall length useable. This would be great in shotgun form for turkey hunters in one season, and goose hunters in another - with the same gun. Mossberg's Bullpuped 500 is a rare find now days... it probably didn't do as well as it could have, if it was better made. It struck me as a bit chintsy.
The question of shortening the barrel and loosing velocity would be moot - instead the question would be "If I dropped in a barrel two inches longer, what would be my ballistic GAIN?"
And you could go the other way, make it SUPER SHORT and then you would have... well things like the FN P-90... which is not bad at all. But imagine a version just a tad bigger, and chambered for .308! That would be very cool.
Rob Pincus
New member
The only BP I have is the LAR .50, so there is not much practical opinion about BPs formed by playing with it. I think they look cool, but like I said, no practical experience. I need to put that kit together....
Hey, I just read (really - on screen 4) off the Jane's (www.janes.com)newsletter that NORINCO has come out with a new 5.56mm bullpup. This will be interesting as Norinco is the worlds largest arms maker, and they dont make stupid things too often. Remember all the Norinco 1911s... used to be able to pick them up for $200.
Kodiac
(personally hates Norinco)
[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited 10-22-98).]
Kodiac
(personally hates Norinco)
[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited 10-22-98).]
With the sharp edges, mediocre polishing and ugly wood, the fit and finish on Norinco is not up to Western standards. I thought the 1911 was a good starting point to build a gun on. Lots of potential.
Those folks over there in the workers' paradise aren't really too accustomed to making guns for commercial purposes. The only guns in the hands of civilians are hunters/woodsmen in Tibet (blackpowder) and maybe Inner Mongolia.
Norinco is use to keeping the PLA (we run over students with tanks) happy and hasn't devoted enough time to learn about Western tastes.
Those folks over there in the workers' paradise aren't really too accustomed to making guns for commercial purposes. The only guns in the hands of civilians are hunters/woodsmen in Tibet (blackpowder) and maybe Inner Mongolia.
Norinco is use to keeping the PLA (we run over students with tanks) happy and hasn't devoted enough time to learn about Western tastes.
Thank HEAVENS China has no capability to project military might this far. They got missiles... but in conventional warfare - they are short legged. Can't fight a war over here unless you can best our NAVY... and they cant do that - not even close.
Oops, this should go down into the Coffee Urn.
Oops, this should go down into the Coffee Urn.
Let me preface my comments with the caveat that I have little personal experience with BP's. I think they are a great idea, but my understanding is...
Smoke blows in your face.
Trigger pulls are mushy.
I'm thinking that sight radius will be reduced as well, though that isn't a major concern of mine.
These things to be balanced against the length advantage, of course.
Smoke blows in your face.
Trigger pulls are mushy.
I'm thinking that sight radius will be reduced as well, though that isn't a major concern of mine.
These things to be balanced against the length advantage, of course.
Guns like the P-90 are going to be the future for sure... as are bullpup designs in general. They have too many advatages to be just a fad. And several of the top BP models have the ability to be set up to eject from either side or the eject out the bottom. This will make the wrong handers happy... more so than bolt action designs that have no adjustment ability for lefties. The factory must make a special rifle just for that reason. I would like to see more Bullpups suitible for hunting rather than just military police duties. Chamber one in 30.06 and you coulld go for ELK...
Take the BLAZER rifle idea and bullpup that concept... Switch out the barrels and you have different calibers. Nifty.
Sight radius is not too much a problem if your a pistol shooter - and you could easily go with a red dot type sight... which are getting better all the time.
Take the BLAZER rifle idea and bullpup that concept... Switch out the barrels and you have different calibers. Nifty.
Sight radius is not too much a problem if your a pistol shooter - and you could easily go with a red dot type sight... which are getting better all the time.
Rob Pincus
New member
Okay, someone design me a Bullpup BAR in 7mm-08 for deer please. (then we'll build the 7mm RM MAG for the big stuff...)
BTW, anyone know anything about the recoil systmem on the BAR? could you build a Scout style rifle, with a 16-18 inch barrel and a custom made collapsible stock on on of the BAR recievers or does it use the stock in its recoil design?
BTW, anyone know anything about the recoil systmem on the BAR? could you build a Scout style rifle, with a 16-18 inch barrel and a custom made collapsible stock on on of the BAR recievers or does it use the stock in its recoil design?
Rob,
Are you thinking of the civilian Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) developed by M. Vervier?
This sporting gun is gas operated with a rotating bolt head that engages the shoulders of the barrel...sorta like the M16. And like the M16, the BAR's bolt head is attached to a carrier. Unlike the M16 (which is gas impingement operated as opposed to the gas operation of the BAR), the BAR's carrier rides on two parallel action bars which are attached to an intertia piece found underneath the barrel.
Upon firing, gases enter the gas port, filling the gas cylinder. Pressure drives the gas piston against the intertia piece which begins travelling rearward. This compresses the action spring and causes the action bars to travel rearward along the action bar (for want of a better term) path in the receiver. Because the bolt carrier is attached to the action bars, the bolt carrier also travels rearward and in doing so, cams the bolt, unlocking the bolt's multiple heads from the shoulders of the barrel.
As the bolt travels rearward, the extractor pulls the spent case from the chamber. Pressure acting on the base of the case from the ejector ejects the case from the ejection port. The bolt's rearward travel also causes the hammer to rotate back past the cocked position.
Now, pressure from the compressed action spring forces the inertia piece forward. This causes the action bars to begin their forward movement and with it, the bolt carrier assembly.
As the bolt travels forward, the hammer follows until it is arrested by the sear. Pressure from the magazine spring forces the magazine follower up and pushes a cartridge into the feed lips of the magazine. (Funny, but doesn't the rearward travel of the bolt actually pushes the cartridges into the magazine ever so slightly?) The bolt strips the awaiting cartridge from the magazine. As the cartridge rides up and along the breech face of the bolt, it slides beneath the extractor.
The bolt head then reengages the shoulders and the bolt's camming action locks the action; completing the chambering process and the firing cycle.
It is quite unlike the fixed stock FN-FAL or the M1918 BAR or M-16/AR-15 where there is a recoil spring or buffer in the stock.
That said and done, I guess the commercial BAR can be made into a bull pup hunting rifle.
My apologies if there's a mistake on the technical details. I don't have a BAR on hand to examine and I'm not an engineer and corrections are gratefully accepted.
[This message has been edited by 4V50 (edited 10-27-98).]
Are you thinking of the civilian Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) developed by M. Vervier?
This sporting gun is gas operated with a rotating bolt head that engages the shoulders of the barrel...sorta like the M16. And like the M16, the BAR's bolt head is attached to a carrier. Unlike the M16 (which is gas impingement operated as opposed to the gas operation of the BAR), the BAR's carrier rides on two parallel action bars which are attached to an intertia piece found underneath the barrel.
Upon firing, gases enter the gas port, filling the gas cylinder. Pressure drives the gas piston against the intertia piece which begins travelling rearward. This compresses the action spring and causes the action bars to travel rearward along the action bar (for want of a better term) path in the receiver. Because the bolt carrier is attached to the action bars, the bolt carrier also travels rearward and in doing so, cams the bolt, unlocking the bolt's multiple heads from the shoulders of the barrel.
As the bolt travels rearward, the extractor pulls the spent case from the chamber. Pressure acting on the base of the case from the ejector ejects the case from the ejection port. The bolt's rearward travel also causes the hammer to rotate back past the cocked position.
Now, pressure from the compressed action spring forces the inertia piece forward. This causes the action bars to begin their forward movement and with it, the bolt carrier assembly.
As the bolt travels forward, the hammer follows until it is arrested by the sear. Pressure from the magazine spring forces the magazine follower up and pushes a cartridge into the feed lips of the magazine. (Funny, but doesn't the rearward travel of the bolt actually pushes the cartridges into the magazine ever so slightly?) The bolt strips the awaiting cartridge from the magazine. As the cartridge rides up and along the breech face of the bolt, it slides beneath the extractor.
The bolt head then reengages the shoulders and the bolt's camming action locks the action; completing the chambering process and the firing cycle.
It is quite unlike the fixed stock FN-FAL or the M1918 BAR or M-16/AR-15 where there is a recoil spring or buffer in the stock.
That said and done, I guess the commercial BAR can be made into a bull pup hunting rifle.
My apologies if there's a mistake on the technical details. I don't have a BAR on hand to examine and I'm not an engineer and corrections are gratefully accepted.
[This message has been edited by 4V50 (edited 10-27-98).]
I can`t speak for the rifles ,although I`ve drooled over AUG`s for years. But I did own a Mossberg Bullpup,emphasis on did. What a POS! It required three hands to operate and pointed about as well as a piano. It was also very "clunky",but it did look cool!
FWIW I think the bullpup concept is a good one if properly executed. Marcus
Speaking of bullpups, the Calico 9mm rifle is the ideal bullpup candidate. Besides being easier to wield in close quarters, it certainly would have been a lot stronger than the flimsy collaspable extruded aluminum stock.
Too bad Calico never made the 12 ga. or the .223 version - in bullpup no less. That would make Sarah and Bill poop in their pants.
Too bad Calico never made the 12 ga. or the .223 version - in bullpup no less. That would make Sarah and Bill poop in their pants.
Rob Pincus
New member
Hey 4V, thanks for all the good info!
That was exactly what I was wondering, whether or not there is part of the recoil system in the stock (AR, Benneli, etc...).
Recently, I have had a "thing" for SBRs, I wonder if I switched this interest over to one in bullpups, would that be cheaper or mmore expensive? Who would you contact ot make a stock like that for a sporting BAR? I used to have freinds at Fajen, but they are gone...
That was exactly what I was wondering, whether or not there is part of the recoil system in the stock (AR, Benneli, etc...).
Recently, I have had a "thing" for SBRs, I wonder if I switched this interest over to one in bullpups, would that be cheaper or mmore expensive? Who would you contact ot make a stock like that for a sporting BAR? I used to have freinds at Fajen, but they are gone...
I have owned a; AUG my personal favorite, FA-MAS nice but, the bullpup for military use make sense. For vehicle deployment, helicopters ect. they also are easier to handle in heavy brush and CQB (city fighting ie buildings) the only real problem in military use is the left/right handed ejection.
Say your rifle is disabled in combat you could pick up a "wrong" sided ejection rifle and damage yourself by eating brass.
I have always wondered why the bullpup designers didn't use bottom ejection. This would solve a very real problem. Another problem is having to expose yourself around corners.
The british have right handed only ejection and rifle training to solve the problem.
One of the people commented on the sight radius. I don't believe that is a valid comment. The FA-MAS has a sight radius approx the same as the M-16.
Say your rifle is disabled in combat you could pick up a "wrong" sided ejection rifle and damage yourself by eating brass.
I have always wondered why the bullpup designers didn't use bottom ejection. This would solve a very real problem. Another problem is having to expose yourself around corners.
The british have right handed only ejection and rifle training to solve the problem.
One of the people commented on the sight radius. I don't believe that is a valid comment. The FA-MAS has a sight radius approx the same as the M-16.