Bullets for hunting

[Shadow9mm]

Bullets almost never fail. They do exactly what they are designed to do virtually every time. The problem is when people choose the wrong bullet for the task they are trying to do. Bullets range from soft to hard and there are multiple variations between the 2 extremes.

Softer bullets expand rapidly. They may over expand and give poor penetration if used on larger game shot at close range. They work better on smallish, big game like deer, and since they expand rapidly are a better choice for longer range where bullet impact is slower. If used on bigger game and at closer ranges going to a heavier bullet will slow down impact speeds and improve penetration. Most soft bullets expand well with impact speeds between about 1800-2800 fps.

The bullets on the hard end of the spectrum will stay together and penetrate at any speed you can get from a rifle. But they need to impact at faster speeds or they don't expand at all. You can't shoot them too fast, impact speeds of 3500 fps won't hurt, but if impact speeds are under 2000-2200 fps expansion is poor and they act like FMJ.

It would be a good idea to look at a ballistics chart and look at the projected bullet speeds at various ranges. If using a soft 150 gr bullet it might be fine in a 308 at any range from the muzzle out to about 400 yards. But the same bullet fired from a 300 magnum will overexpand and perform poorly at ranges inside or about 150 yards. But it will retain the minimum 1800 fps at greater ranges.

The solid copper bullets are on the extreme hard end of the spectrum. They work great at close range. Even in cartridges normally considered borderline too small for the game hunted. But because they need to impact faster to expand aren't the best choice for long range hunting.

But you must 1st define long range. They will still retain 2000 fps out to ranges farther than most of us need to be shooting. Especially from magnum rifles.

Lehigh defense makes a bullet called controlled chaos. They claim a minimum opening velocity of 1500fps. Which i have seen tested with the 152g version. Video in post #5. They also make a 175g version.

The barnes lrx supposedly has an opening velocity of around 1600fps. But that was some googling, no direct from barnes.

 

[DPI7800]

Your arguing about people not wanting to learn? Why not learn to stalk in closer? Remove variables to guarantee you fill your tags. Your argument cuts both ways.

For me, there is no argument here, in my home state I only archery hunt. I am completely well versed and skilled in this.

The other issue is animals are moving targets. The farther out you get the more flight time you have, giving your animal more chance to move, meaning you might not put the bullet where you wanted. Anything from a miss, to a wounding shot keeping you from filling your tag.

Wow mind blowing! If only someone had explained this to me or had practical drills to practice this during the 250 plus hours of training my employer has sent me to.

 

[Shadow9mm]

DPI7800 Ok, but were not talking about you, or archery hunting . Were talking about taking a shot with a firearm on a game animal beyond 350yds, or in in relation to the OP 600-700 yds.

you did not invalidate either of my arguments in that context. And neither of my arguments were on an ethical bases as you stated they would be.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

What bullets do you use for hunting….especially a little longer range? I’m thinking about going all copper…

300 Sherman….out to 600-700 yds for now

At that distance, you are going to be dealing with bullets impacting your target at 1600-1900 fps which is at the bottom end of expansion performance for some/many/most copper bullets, unless you find some specifically designed for opening up at lower velocities.

Yes, I realize that some standard copper bullets will "open" down into the 1600-1800 fps range, but "open" is often fairly relative in the sense that they may open to 120% of their relative size versus opening to 200-300% of their original size at more typical hunting distances. That can mean a lot of difference in the amount of damage being done to help bring down the animal quicker and hence being able to find easier.

Lead bullets suffer velocity performance issues as well, but not to as great of an extent.

So, if you are shooting longer distance, you are going to want a bullet designed for opening up at lower velocities and copper will be more sensitive to this problem than lead. You may want a different bullet for shooting at more tradition sub 200 yard hunting distances to give you more optical performance there. A low velocity impact bullet may not perform in a manner that you want/expect if impacting at too great of a velocity.

I also realize that it is critical that the hunter do his/her part to make a proper shot, but there is a world of difference between a bullet pencilling through an animal and a bullet that expands in regard to the damage being done. The greater the damage, the greater the likelihood that the animal will go down sooner and usually the easier the animal will be to find.

While certainly ethical, the consideration is also very pragmatic.

 

[DPI7800]

DPI7800 Ok, but were not talking about you, or archery hunting . Were talking about taking a shot with a firearm on a game animal beyond 350yds, or in in relation to the OP 600-700 yds.

you did not invalidate either of my arguments in that context. And neither of my arguments were on an ethical bases as you stated they would be.

I am certain I’m not unique when it comes to having skills in both stalking ability and shooting ability. I know my circle of company is capable in both of these skills I also know not everyone is. I find more often than not when people are lacking in knowledge and skill they have a tendency to dismiss those who do.

 

[44 AMP]

If only someone had explained this to me or had practical drills to practice this during the 250 plus hours of training my employer has sent me to.

Your employer sent you to 250 plus hours of training to shoot game animals at long range???

What employer is that??

Here we go again with “I can’t nor do I ever want to learn how to, so nobody else should either” mentality. Which the reply will ultimately be about ethics. Prove me wrong.

You quoted what I said, but your reply tells me you didn't understand it.

The only part you got even remotely correct is that ethics are involved. Its SPORT hunting, not survival. Its not about what you can do its about what you should choose to do.

We can hold different opinions about what we feel is ethical, but if you feel ethics has no place in sport hunting, I feel you should choose a different hobby.

 

[Shadow9mm]

I am certain I’m not unique when it comes to having skills in both stalking ability and shooting ability. I know my circle of company is capable in both of these skills I also know not everyone is. I find more often than not when people are lacking in knowledge and skill they have a tendency to dismiss those who do.

There is no skill or knowledge that one can have that will tell you if an animal is going to move after you take your shot. The further away you are, the more time the bullet spends in the air, and the more time the animal has to do something unpredictable.

You have both knowledge and skill in stalking and shooting. But to drop your animal, the best bet whenever possible is to stalk in closer. You can more precisely place your bullet. Have less environmentals to deal with, and deliver more energy to the target. Can i shoot out to 500yds well, yes. Would i take that shot on an animal, no, there is too much chance of the animal moving between when i pull the trigger and when the bullet gets to the target.

 

[ligonierbill]

Long range hunting is one of those discussions that seems to raise hackles and devolve into a bit of ad hominem. The OP just asked about bullets! I'll add my view on both.

There are a lot of ethical issues in hunting. And when to shoot or not is one we all face. My view: If you are sure you can make the shot, take it. Doesn't mean you never miss or send one that, on reflection, you think unwise. It means you are absolutely sure of your target and background, and the chance is within the capability of the shooter (you) and the equipment. A 700 yard shot ridge-to-ridge on a calm day with a solid rest and an appropriate rifle with well known ballistics might be more ethical than a 70 yard shot at running game in heavy brush. Maybe not. Ever hear someone speak of a "sound shot"? I have.

What is most important is followup. Time consuming, tedious sometimes, but absolutely required of an ethical hunter. If you're willing to hike over to that ridge and comb the location for any spot of blood or hair and search the area until you find the game or are sure of a clean miss, go ahead and take your long shot. And good luck!

Now bullets. Assuming you have an accurate load, your bullet needs to hold together in case your game walks out in front of your magnum knock-'em-dead at 50 yards instead of 500. I've only killed two elk, one at 400 yards and one at maybe 20 (maybe 10). Same 7mm Rem Mag. The one at 400 went down quicker. This was early in my career, and both bullets were cup-and-core. I wouldn't use them now. But I think any "premium" bullet will work. I had great success in Namibia with Nosler Accubonds. And I have found that Barnes TTSX are very accurate, often the best performer in a number of my rifles. Have yet to put one into game, but check out Ron Spomer's video. I am getting a 338 RUM barrel installed on one of my 700s, and my first load workup will be the Barnes 210 TTSX.

 

[reynolds357]

What bullets do you use for hunting….especially a little longer range? I’m thinking about going all copper…

Depends on what I am hunting. For deer/Elk, I used to use Barnes. In my opinion, bonded bullets have surpassed them in dependability and quick takedowns. Swift Scirricco2 and Nosler Accubond are now my favorites.
For Deer, about anything is sufficient.
I have made some super long kills with Berger VLD hunting. They are super accurate. The flip side is that at high velocity, they make a super mess. I shot a Whitetail buck last year in shoulder. 140 6.5 mm that should have hit him at between 3100 and 3150. Threw both shoulders away. Meat was destroyed.

 

[std7mag]

I shot the doe at 413 yards.
I could have taken the shot from 550 yards where i originally lazed them.
I decided to shoot from that distance due to several factors.
1) i could have confidently made the 550 yard shot, but decided to get closer.
2) at 413 yards the deer were starting to get fidgety.
3) weather was cooperating. 18°f, 2mph wing coming head on.
4) i was extremely comfortable making a 400 yard shot. A distance i shoot at often.

Unless your shooting a mono bullet, your shooting a cup & core bullet. Tip or no tip, bonded or not. Still a copper cup & lead core. Hence cup & core.

Nosler's ABLR has minimum velocity requirement of 1,300fps.

If yor shooting both shoulders with a Berger, your doing it wrong.
Put Bergers in the ribs.
NOT major bones.

 

[reynolds357]

I shot the doe at 413 yards.
I could have taken the shot from 550 yards where i originally lazed them.
I decided to shoot from that distance due to several factors.
1) i could have confidently made the 550 yard shot, but decided to get closer.
2) at 413 yards the deer were starting to get fidgety.
3) weather was cooperating. 18°f, 2mph wing coming head on.
4) i was extremely comfortable making a 400 yard shot. A distance i shoot at often.

Unless your shooting a mono bullet, your shooting a cup & core bullet. Tip or no tip, bonded or not. Still a copper cup & lead core. Hence cup & core.

Nosler's ABLR has minimum velocity requirement of 1,300fps.

If yor shooting both shoulders with a Berger, your doing it wrong.
Put Bergers in the ribs.
NOT major bones.

If you listen to Berger, actually watch Berger hunting videos, right behind the shoulder is where the Berger sponsored shooters put them.
I have put plenty in the ribs. They may go down or may have to track to Egypt. My son shot a nice 10 past season with 6.5 130 VLD. Double lung. No exit. Basically no blood for over 200 yards. It was laying in a lake of blood, but no blood trail.

 

[std7mag]

Yeah, double lung expect some tracking.
I've never had an exit with the Berger VLDs.
All have been heart & lung shots.
7mm-08AI with 140gr VLD at 413 yards left bullet sized entry hole, no exit.
She turned 180° & made it 20 yards. Blood everywhere! Both lungs & heart destroyed.
Heart in 2 pieces & consistancy of goo. Found jacket between 1" layer of fat and hide on offside.

Another doe at 125 yards, same result.

Daughters 6 point the other year using 115gr VLD in my 257 Roberts shot about 70 yards.
"He just kinda puffed up. Went straight legged. And fell over."
Again, no exit. Both lungs & heart utterly destroyed.

 

[reynolds357]

Yeah, double lung expect some tracking.
I've never had an exit with the Berger VLDs.
All have been heart & lung shots.
7mm-08AI with 140gr VLD at 413 yards left bullet sized entry hole, no exit.
She turned 180° & made it 20 yards. Blood everywhere! Both lungs & heart destroyed.
Heart in 2 pieces & consistancy of goo. Found jacket between 1" layer of fat and hide on offside.

Another doe at 125 yards, same result.

Daughters 6 point the other year using 115gr VLD in my 257 Roberts shot about 70 yards.
"He just kinda puffed up. Went straight legged. And fell over."
Again, no exit. Both lungs & heart utterly destroyed.

Last day of season, I was filling the freezer. Berger 130 VLD 6.5x284 Norma. 15 yds. Ground blind. Double lung no exit. I thought I missed the doe. She twitched and started eating again. She ate for over 30 seconds. I put scope on her again and saw blood pumping out entry hole. She continued to eat for another few seconds and then started stumblingand ran off. She made it 120 yards to the cattle fence and crashed and died in it. Bergers in the lungs don't impress me.

 

[Nathan]

Bullets almost never fail.

I read the rest of your post. Let’s just say, I hear Boeing is hiring.

Bullets do fail….to perform to the marketing and expectations.

For example, Hornady markets the SST as a high velocity hunting bullet. The ones I have seen in the field blew up.

Berger markets the EH(Elite Hunter) or EOL(Extreme Outer Limits). On game I found these to make unnecessarily large holes risking meat damage. Effective, but failure to me.

Nosler Accubond….marketed as a premium bonded hunting bullet. I agree. A bit expensive, but every one worked every time for me. Ballistic Coefficient is slightly below max, thus the ABLR.

If you want to learn about bullet performance, watch SimpleMindedFella on YouTube. He gets it.

Here we go again with “I can’t nor do I ever want to learn how to, so nobody else should either” mentality. Which the reply will ultimately be about ethics. Prove me wrong.

I cannot reply to this. Thanks for those that can reply in a civil manner.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

For example, Hornady markets the SST as a high velocity hunting bullet. The ones I have seen in the field blew up.

LOL, it is a cup and core bullet. They commonly come apart and "blow up" as you described it. That is not atypical for cup and core bullets at higher velocity. It failed more in regard to meeting your expectations rather than failing in what is typical performance, as with your 2nd example.

It has been my experience with them that at higher velocities, they most SSTs certainly can and often do come apart, something I see as a bonus. At medium impact velocities, they expand, although a bit irregular. At lower velocity impacts, they tend to perform like a softpoint.

 

[44 AMP]

There are, of course, two classes of bullet failure.

One is a bullet failing to perform to your expecations.

The other is a bullet failing to perform to the maker's expectations. This sometimes happens with new designs and is generally corrected shortly after the maker learns of it.

The classic example of this is the early .458 Win Mag. Win put the 500gr FMJ made by Hornady in their ammo. Early reported results were poor. Joyce Hornady went on safari and talked to a lot of the PH's about why they didn't like the round and heard about lack of penetration and the bullets "riveting" and other failures, from people who didn't know (and weren't told) he was the guy making the bullets.

Hornady went home and redesigned the bullet. After that, its performance in Africa improved a lot and it became a very popular round for biggest game.

No one can fix a problem they don't know exists. If you have a bullet that fails to perform in some way, its important the people who make it learn about that, exactly what it did, and didn't do and the specific conditions involved.

If its a matter of the bullet not doing what they expect it to do, they will fix that. If its a matter of the bullet not meeting your inflated expectaions, they can't fix that...

 

[Shadow9mm]

There are, of course, two classes of bullet failure.

One is a bullet failing to perform to your expecations.

The other is a bullet failing to perform to the maker's expectations. This sometimes happens with new designs and is generally corrected shortly after the maker learns of it.

The classic example of this is the early .458 Win Mag. Win put the 500gr FMJ made by Hornady in their ammo. Early reported results were poor. Joyce Hornady went on safari and talked to a lot of the PH's about why they didn't like the round and heard about lack of penetration and the bullets "riveting" and other failures, from people who didn't know (and weren't told) he was the guy making the bullets.

Hornady went home and redesigned the bullet. After that, its performance in Africa improved a lot and it became a very popular round for biggest game.

No one can fix a problem they don't know exists. If you have a bullet that fails to perform in some way, its important the people who make it learn about that, exactly what it did, and didn't do and the specific conditions involved.

If its a matter of the bullet not doing what they expect it to do, they will fix that. If its a matter of the bullet not meeting your inflated expectaions, they can't fix that...

I would say bullets needs to perform as stated by the manufacturer. And the user needs to understand their needs and should select the appropriate bullet for what they are doing.

 

[Paul B.]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Put me in the old school that says that if you shoot a game animal at more than 300ish yards you should have to write yourself a letter, in triplicate, longhand (no keyboards, no carbon paper...) explaining exactly why you had to take that shot.

In my state one has to draw a tag to hunt big game. Some of the areas has large very wide open spaces. One such it area1 which has some extremely large open areas. I drew an elk tag for that area and having hunted it before knew this. Once the first shot goes off on opening day, the elk do one of two things; take off for the adjacent Indian reservation or one of those open spaces. Sitting out in the middle they can see hunters coming from a long way off.

My rifle of choice for that particular areas is chambered to the .300 Win. mag. I run 200 gr. bullet pushing close to 2900 FPS. Practice before the hunt includes ranges to 500 meters. I use my clubs silhouette range for the longer range practice.

Opening day the elk were on the move by 8AM. One herd was headed toward the "rez" smack dab in the middle of an area roughly a mile and a half wide and about two or three miles long. A long crawl put me behind a small bush from when I laser measured the distance to the elk. Absolutely no way to get any closer. Laser said 530 yards. Close enough to 500 meter and I held according. Oe shot later I was walking over to tag my cow elk. That just happened to be the longest shot I've ever taken on a game animal. I much prefer getting as close as possible bit sometimes it's not in the cards. FWIW, I've only taken one other really far out shot. A Mule Deer at 426 paces. Sorry no laser rangefinders back in 1973. Deer had been hit by my hunting partner and was getting way.

My point being, sometimes you either take a long shot or eat tag soup. If you're reasonably sure you can make the shot, do it. If not, well you know the answer.
Paul B.

 

[reynolds357]

LOL, it is a cup and core bullet. They commonly come apart and "blow up" as you described it. That is not atypical for cup and core bullets at higher velocity. It failed more in regard to meeting your expectations rather than failing in what is typical performance, as with your 2nd example.

It has been my experience with them that at higher velocities, they most SSTs certainly can and often do come apart, something I see as a bonus. At medium impact velocities, they expand, although a bit irregular. At lower velocity impacts, they tend to perform like a softpoint.

Yep. The SST is designed to penetrate a few inches and explode.

 

[44 AMP]

The thing that taints the image of the long-very long shot on big game is not the people who practice and can actually make the shot, but the number of people who "know they can" because their rifle can do it, when in reality, they are not skilled enough to be certain of reliable results.

Yes, there are times when one simply cannot stalk closer. Then it becomes judgement call, and I was raised to be ok with "eating tag soup" as you call it, and not taking a questionable shot.

To me, its ok to not fill my tag on a given day if conditions don't allow it. Its a SPORT, not a must happen thing. In the example you gave, you practiced, you had accurate ranging, all the right things, and you were successful.

Now, take the same situation and suppose the elk took a step just as you pulled the trigger? Maybe instead of going into the boiler room, the bullet hits too far aft, and now you're tracking a gut shot elk. ]

And when the shooter is someone who hasn't practiced, only read ballistic tables, the odds of a poor shot go up further.

Personally I will pass on a shot like that, but then I'm not focused on filling my tag at the main reason for hunting. Of course, that's just me...

Its a variation of slob hunting, where people doing what they shouldn't besmirches the people who can, and do what they should.

If you look at my post about taking a long shot, the thing you should get from it is that what I'm asking for is a good reason why you had to take the uber long shot. And, to me, desire to fill a tag alone isn't a good enough reason. Nor is the cost of what you spent.