Bullet seating extremely deep in 38 spl case to recreate 9mm Luger performance

Update on "bulges", bullet lube and leading

Hi,

I shot today the reloaded deep seated 38 spl. They are seated to 0.100" after flush with case mouth.
I can NOT see anymore bulges near the rim. That may indicate an overpressure issue when seated to 0.125" (after flush).
No detectable leading whatsoever.

I shot an oostrich today with 5 shots from about 35 meters with These deep seated 38 spl reloads (124 grain Lee TC TL .356" diam lead bullets over 3.0 grains of 700X type scavenged shotshell powder). First 4 shots I hit him I believe 2 times (on each side is an entrance wound). Or it may be I hit him once and the bullet exited on the other side but both Look like entrances. 2 misses at 35 meters as I know. Last shot to finish him off from 1 meter.
Yesterday I shot with 2 shots an aligator. First hit in Body and second pressumably on head: just went plain straigth down to the ground of the waterplace.

As well I placed the reloads lubed with animal marker Crayons (Raidl Raidex made in Germany by Hauptner&Herberholz) under hot sun on my truck to see if the Crayon lube starts to melt or seep oils. I put them there for about 1 hour. They could just be touched just barely with the Hands so hot they got (even I notice the primers had backed off a bit from pressure built up of the sunshine). They must have had at least 50 to 60 degrees Celsius. NO MELTING OF LUBE DETECTED NOR OIL SEEPING even when turned upside down.

I guess I have to order an chronograph.

As well I tried one of the birdshot 38 spl. At 5 Yards just one part of an "halfmoon" hit an 200 Liter drum and did not even dent the brittle plastic. It is basically useless for more than 3 Yards and has way to less power (3.0 grains 700X type shotgun powder over about 100 grains filled in the 357 Magnum case). I do not believe an snake will be dead if get shot (just too less energy). But I did not detect any leading at all.
 
what did you use for a wad between the powder and shot?

Ive made acceptable birdshot loads in various handguns, but used a felt wad or cardboard wad between powder and shot, then sort of star crimped a card wad over the shot. I cut wads from cardboard milk cartons with a junk case sharpened with a deburring tool.

Having said all that, Ive not used them beyond aboput 5-19 feet, the patterns spread pretty fast. They are death and destruction to rattlesnakes at 3-5 feet though.

Hes tried making black powder per his posts on castboolit forum, it hasn't worked out well for some reason.

Will also reiterate the issue with the 38 or 357 case tapering as it goes down, so pressures may not exactly be a linear rise as in 9mm cases based simply on length to bullet nose. The 38 spl wadcutter cases are supposed to be thinner farther down in to allow for the long hollow base wadcutters to be seated without damaging them. Wadcutter cases had 2 knurled rings around the case rather than one or none.
 
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Blackpowder does not work for me.

I use paper from Kellogg's type paper boxes punched out with an 9mm Punch. Not all powder is burnt. That tells me the pressure is to small meaning too light shot Charge. But no more shot is going into the 357 mag case as 100 grain.

Once I have the opportunity I will try These loads on living snakes (I have at least 6 of them loaded left).

More dies and molds are coming so I have to save for paying those first (they arrive here for triple of the US pricing). But the molds are well worthed since locally they are not availlable and save huge amounts of Money (casting saves about 98% of factory FMJ bullets over here in Southamerica).

After that I will order the Chronograph. I think in getting an ProChrono Digital. What do you guys think?
 
<...Response deleted...>

Best of luck with your project, theres been some good advice. A chronograph should allow you to extrapolate loading data as to type of powder in the shotgun shells by comparing charge weights with known loads and working backwards.
 
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I can not get gun powder of any Kind here
* I scavenge 12 ga shotshells for powder and lead for reloading
* I HAVE TO SAVE gun powder therefore as Maximum I can
** I have to use the most efficient caliber (which happens to be the 9mm Luger) as it gets the most energy and velocity per powder Charge
* 38 spl and even more 357 mag if loaded with the same powder Charge as 9mm Luger are a peapsquake (NO POWER NOR RECOIL WHATSOEVER).
Click to expand...

Perhaps this has been addressed, but if you are scavenging powder from 12g shells, how can you know what powder it is in order to then use it in safe quantities for your given application?

Does it say "charged with International Clays by Hodgdons" on it?

If not, it's a guessing game, surely... and a risky one at that.

Beyond that, if components are so hard to come by and maximising your powder-to-shot ratio, I have to ask why not just use .38spl?

It may not be 9mm, but it has a history of doing the job.

Finally, what is you application? Again, if it is target shooting, then why not just enjoy the economical shooting of the .38?

It just seems to be an unnecessary (albeit interesting) experiment which puts your gun a slightly higher risk and if reloading components are so few, I expect guns are not easy to get either. Why risk your .357?
 
James Bond,

Thanks for replying. Very interesting.

In order to be on the safe side you HAVE TO WORK UP YOUR LOADS STARTING ABOUT 1 GRAIN BELOW STARTING CHARGE published data (Lyman 48th reloading Manual for example). Second your Guideline is an semi automatic pistol (mine is S&W SD9VE): The Point were it cycles reliable that is your max powder Charge-seating depth and bullet weight Combo.

No it does not say which powder is in the Shells. But I contacted manufacturer and they gave me an burn rate Chart for their powder charged in their 12 ga shotshells (at least 2 of the spanish manufacturers). The powder is of high Quality. The argentinian does not have a single reference but it is quicker as both spanish ones.

Use your head minimize the risks. I used at first a full faceshield, earmuffs, leather gloves and thick jacket should something happen.

I am not using 38 spl as published data since it just did not have enough power. It happens factory bullets are not availlable for 38 spl here and so I used my 9mm Luger FMJ in the 38 spl cases. They did not get an propper crimp (sliding up and down easily) so they did not work. Then on Cast Boolits Forum someone said IT IS ALL ABOUT EMPTY AIRSPACE VOLUMEN OF THE CASE. Reduce the empty airspace in the case and you get more pressure, more velocity and more Penetration and energy. Pressure is equal to P=n/v were P is pressure, n is powder Charge and v is empty airspace Volumen of the case. Temperature and bullet weight are constants.
It actually may work loading regularly These 38 spl with These .356" Lee 124 grain Truncated Cone tumble lube bullets. But I fear loss of energy since the empty airspace is bigger. Why fix it if it aint' broke?

Yes I believe These "new creations" work but for sure I know if I got my Chronograph. BTW, I decided to buy the Caldwell Chronograph. What you guys say?

Independence of ammo, Money savings, hunting, defense and field protection, target Shooting for skill improvement.

Guns are plenty. Just have the Money which is not plenty. Somebody told me These (and the 9mm Federal Rimmed I made before. I cut down the 357 mag to 19mm lenth) reloads are easier on the gun as full power 357 magnums. The gun has less recoil than factory 357 mag ammo. So it should hold up longer. As well These are compared to +P+P 38 Short Colts which is supposed to be used by many Cowboy Action shooters. The main Thing for an cartridge is NOT GO OVER THE STATED PRESSURE FOR THE GUN (in my case it is 35000 PSI).
 
TGOS, I have enjoyed reading this discussion and I salute you sir. Your perseverance in pursuing hand loading while faced with such a restrictive regulatory environment is commendable. Equipment, components and a wide selection of powders are easily available here. I don't know how many of we spoiled Americans would reload ammunition if faced with the challenges your government has put in place. Best of luck in your efforts sir.
 
Dear rock185,

Thanks for the Kind and encouraging reply.

Scavenging shotshells for reloading is not that bad at all as it may seem. It is just different and the reloader has to know what he is doing.

All I know about reloading I have learned from you americans. You are the real pioneers of reloading even under TEOTWANKI and SHTF Scenarios and not me. I just added my meager experience and wanted These my first Hand experiences share with you guys in order to GIVE BACK as well. All I do know you can do as well once your Situation in the US gets that restricted as well (and I have done These my experiences in order to give you an safe and experimental-scientific Background).

I did not post anymore because I wanted to wait till my Caldwell chronograph arrives which I ordered already. Then I want to post the velocities of this "new creation" wildcat and 9mm Luger reloads to see the energy Levels.
Today some more reloading Equipment should arrive as well.

However I am not reloading in the most restrictive country. There are other countries which restriction does not even make it possible for you to reload. One of These countries is Brazil for example. There only with Registration you MAY GET primers. Here till now primers can be imported freely. Primers are the ALL CRUCIAL AND DETERMING component. Whitout primers you are done reloading. That is why I stockpile them. I do not shoot much so how Long last 10000 primers? Quiete a while. Shooting is done just for protection of cattle and farm as well ocasional hunting critters. Brazilians can not get primers, nor molds. I have already all molds to Keep Shooting and more molds are coming. It is just a matter of time when they will prohibit that as well I guess (but I got already all my neccesary reloading Equipment). Molds are forbidden in Brazil as well, here not. So here it is barely possible to reload but not impossible. We have here a well fighting gun stores as well who Keep up the fight. But obviously those times from the 90's are gone were you could just grab your canadian guns and ship it along with you in the plane when you came to this Country (People packed their guns in backpack and put it in the plane and arrived here and all that was legal). The arising of the self proclaimed "Peoples Army" changed that and all this is due to the ever groving difference between rich and poor (capitalism seems to have an inherent Distribution Problem of the riches. No trickle down-economy anymore. It changed to an "seep-up" economy were the riches concentrate almost all on few people).

Thanks again Sir.
More Posts are coming in a few weeks.
 
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Penetration, accuracy and performance of the "new wildcat" from 55 meters distance

Dear ya all,

I post this on cast boolits since on TFL I can not post high Resolution photos (I forgot to lower the Resolution of the phone).

I have invented an new "wildcat" cartridge.
See here the link to the Pictures: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ated-356-quot-lead-cast-bullet-in-38-spl-case
I left aside the "reinvented 9mm Federal Rimmed" and instead did what an Cast Boolits member was suggesting me: Seating deep the Lee .356" lead cast Truncated Cone Tumble lube 124 grain bullets into the 38 spl case. The Picture on the left is the result. In that Picture right you see the "new wildcat", in the middle you see the same bullet in an 9mm Luger and on the left you see the cast bullet itself.
The Picture in the middle are the entrance wholes from the "new wildcat" from an distance of 55 meters. You see it has an accuracy of about "Movement of Deer". It is good for hunting and defense I guess.Must have an accuracy of about 6". 2 shots of These "wildcats" were fired.
[in copied link for the Pictures] The Picture on the right are the Exit wholes from the 2 shot fired "new wildcat" from a distance of 55 meters. You see it penetrated the 200 Liter bin right through and entered on an Wood at the back and must have bounced off since I can not find the bullets.
Comparison: #4 buckshot will NOT penetrate the bin (often not even from the front side) from 20 meters. 00 buck will penetrate the bin both sides from 20 meters but not all of the 9 pellets.
You see therefore These "wildcats" have a good Penetration. They are loaded with 3.0 grain 700X type scavenged shotgun powder behind the .356" 124 grain Lee bullet. They are seated 0.100" deep from flush (like an wadcutter but deeper) and empty airspace in the case should equal about that of an 9mm Luger. The 9mm Luger I load the same bullet and powder Charge.
Seated at 0.125" from flush These wildcats start to Show bulges near the rim and I guess that may be a sign of incipient case head Separation (but no hard extraction nor any other signs of over pressure could be seen). These wildcats are shot in an Heritage/Pietta Rough Rider 357 Magnum SAA 5.5" Revolver.
Lubed are These "wildcat" and 9mm Luger not anymore with Texaco Marfak Lithium grease but I changed to Raidl Raidex Crayon animal marker sticks from Hauptner&Herberholz made in Germany for bullet lube.With this bullet lube I do NOT get leading at all and it stays solid til 176 degrees Farenheit (80 degrees Celsius). These Crayons do not seep oils nor liquify if exposed to direct sunlight on a cooking hot truck Hood.

What do you guys think? Any opinions?
More Posts are coming once I got my Caldwell chronograph.
 
TGOS:

All I can say is great work. You've really adapted and overcome to get your guns shooting.

I think you're on the right track, but far off the beaten path. You remind me of P.T. Kekkonen's work on cat sneeze loads. After WWII in Finland, all he had was scrounged Soviet ammo left over on the battlefield. He pulled the bullets from 7.62 Tokarev and used the bullets and powder to keep his Mosin shooting. He dealt with restrictive permits and lack of components.

I think you're fine with your .357 revolver, but you likely are cutting it close with 9mm level loads. Other shooters are loading .38 special target loads in the manner you describe, and that, to me, makes more sense. If I were looking for powerhouse loads, I would buy .410 shotgun shells and scavenge powder from them. Alternately, you could buy .22 Hornet ammo. This powder will be magnum level pistol powder, and you can work up to true .357 level loads. As a bonus, you can recycle the small rifle primers from the .22 Hornet for use in your .38/.357 cases.

I agree with the others that you might get good bang for the buck by milling your own black powder. You mentioned you're on a farm, so it should be reasonably easy to do, making 100 grams at a time.

Have you considered modifying some .38 spl cases to accept 209 shotgun primers? These could be used with VERY low pressure loads, but would allow you to reuse the primers from the shotgun shells you take apart for powder. Another use for 209 shotgun primers is for wax bullet loads for cheap practice. Your best bet might be to trade the 209 primers for small pistol primers, if you can.

Another tip, which you probably know, is to keep brass cases that split. Once you have a few, trim them down to .38 S&W length, then reload these until they split. Then cut them down to 9mm Luger length, and go through the process again. I've done this with .32 S&W long brass. I cut it down to .32 S&W length and load it again.
 
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Dear John C,

If I walk into my local gun shop and ask for 22 Hornet ammo what do you think they will tell me?

What? What is that? Never heard! They even could call me "crazy".

410 shotshells are availlable as well 20 gauge. Just they ara as expensive or even in the case of 410 way more expensive than 12 ga Shells. AND ALL OF THEM HOLD LESS POWDER. That is the clue.
 
TGOS;

Just to note, I updated my previous post while you posting, so we may have crossed in the ether.

Wax bullets are used for "indoor" practice (I don't recommend shooting them indoors, but you're on a farm). There are better instructions on the web, but basically you take an unprimed case and stick it in an approximately 1/2 thick block of soft paraffin wax. This cuts a caliber-diameter plug of paraffin in the case mouth. Take a dowel of the correct diameter and push the was plug to the bottom of the case. Then seat a primer. Load in your pistol and shoot. This will shoot the plug of wax at low velocity with reasonable accuracy to 25 feet or so. They're a blast to shoot!

Keep in mind, prime the cases last. Otherwise the plug of was will compress the air in the case, and after a while the air will expand and push the wax plug back up to the case mouth.

Also, don't use any powder. The higher pressure will make a mess of the wax.

I have 50 cases that I use exclusively for wax bullets, and I used a drill to drill out the flash hole to a larger diameter to get more power directed into the case. Don't use drilled out cases for regular loads!

Keep in mind that these wax bullets are still bullets, and use the same precautions when shooting, ie don't shoot these at anything you're not willing to destroy. They're not toys! It's still a firearm!
 
Typically you HAVE to drill the flash holes out to 1/8" to keep the primer's own pressure from backing them out and jamming cylinder rotation. That backing out happens in normal loads, too, but in that case the pressure from the gunpowder is high enough to back the case up in the chamber and reseat the primer against the breech face. Not so with a primer fired projectile.
 
John C,

Wax bullets.

I understand I take my scavenged 12 ga shotshells with the primer in and put a wad in and fill the case (wad Cup) with candle wax.

Is that rigth?
What use are These for?
 
TGOS;

No, don't do that. I have no experience with 12 gauge wax loads. Not that it can't be done, but it seems improbable.

I guess I wasn't being clear, use .38 special cases with a 1/2 inch thick (or so) plug of stiff paraffin wax. Drill the flash holes out.

My thought is that if you have the tools, ream out the flash holes on your .38 spl cases to take the 209 shotgun primers. These primers have a lot more power than small pistol primers.

Google the subject; I'm sure much more detailed explanations will come up.
 
Ok John C,

Understood.

I manipulate 38 spl cases to fit 209 primers and use them as wax bullets.

I am not going to do that since that far of manipulating ammo I will not go.

Any advice for what to use for the empty but primed shotshells&wads is much welcome.
 
You can use regular primers; they work just fine. But if you REALLY wanted to use every bit, you can modify a few cases to take 209 shotshell primers. Either way, you'll need to drill out the flash holes.
 
I realised my deeply seated 124 grain TC and the most recent Lee 148 grain Wadcutters are seated similar to the Nagant Military Surplus ammo.

Like here:

{Edit: Unfortunately, you may not copy images from another site to this forum without permission from the source. Please read the board policy on posting copyrighted materials.}
I Attribute the ownership expressely to the below Webpage. Here you can appreciate the Nagant rounds.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/24718

They are seated in an 38 spl case in an similar Fashion as These above Nagant Revolver rounds. Difference is just the caliber and my crimp is just undoing the mouth bell from the Expander die.

In hard media like Wood the 148 grain Wadcutters allways expand to about the double of size (shot in an 357 Magnum SAA Revolver). They perform similar, penetrate similar and expand similar to the 9mm Luger loaded with 124 grain Truncated Cone TL lead bullet. But I recommend to Charge a Little more powder to get more Penetration for lead bullets or water quench the cast bullets. These WC and TC eighter in 9mm Luger or 38 spl cases I load to 3.5 grains od scavenged shotgun powder (till now I loaded them to 3.1 grains but Penetration is to less for me).
 
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