Bullet seating extremely deep in 38 spl case to recreate 9mm Luger performance

Dear Jim Watson and mikld,

I have following restrictions:
*I am located in Southamerica
* I can not get gun powder of any Kind here
* I scavenge 12 ga shotshells for powder and lead for reloading
* I HAVE TO SAVE gun powder therefore as Maximum I can
** I have to use the most efficient caliber (which happens to be the 9mm Luger) as it gets the most energy and velocity per powder Charge
* 38 spl and even more 357 mag if loaded with the same powder Charge as 9mm Luger are a peapsquake (NO POWER NOR RECOIL WHATSOEVER).

I order to economize on gun powder I do this. I noticed if I load the 357 mag case with published data I have to use way more powder I ever want to use.
Loading 38 spl with the same powder Charge as 9mm Luger makes dropping to the ground the bullets after about 30 meters. I wondered as well why that may be and then somebody at Cast Boolits told me IT IS ALL ABOUT EMPTY AIRSPACE IN THE CASE.

More empty airspace in case means less velocity and power and less empty airspace means more power and Penetration. P=n/v (P=Power, pressure; n=powder Charge; v=empty airspace Volumen of case; formula)

So ALL MY BULLETS HAVE TO SIT RIGHT ON TOP (without compression) OF THE POWDER TO REACH MAXIMUM EFFICIENCY. That is why the 9mm Luger and These my "new invented reloads" is the most efficient caliber ALLWAYS CONSIDERED THEY ARE SHOT IN A GUN RATED FOR 35000 PSI pressure.
 
He said he is using a .357 mag revolver to shoot these and said so several times.

Many of us have used .38spl cases overloaded (according to .38spl specs) in our .357mags.
I'm wondering what his accuracy is like since he is seating so deeply in a .38 spl case. The cases gets smaller the closer you get to the head after a certain point.

The guy of South America, I feel your pain and still wonder what your accuracy is like with these loads.

Are you using hard cast or normal lead bullets? I don't think pressure is a problem as far as your cylinder is concerned but swagging a soft lead bullet down to a smaller size may be, when your already using an undersized bullet. Lead bullets in a .357 or .38 for that matter measure .358, not .356.

If your forcing it down to the bottom of a .38spl case you may be undersizing it causing leading of your barrel. I would be surprised if you wouldn't get leading from using the same bullet at normal OAL of a 38spl because it is .356 dia.
 
What is the REAL difference between 38 spl brass and 357 mag brass?

We may discuss which is the difference between an
38 spl case (brass)
and an
357 Magnum case (brass).

Anybody an idea?

As I have understood the 357 mag has a slightly thicker brass tapering about 3/4 of it's lenght (so 3/4 of it's length it is very thick brass but tapering towards the end).
The 38 spl as I understood has 1/2 of it's length a thick brass as well tapering.

On the other Hand I understood the 38 spl was filled right full with Black Powder without airspace and right on top of the powder came the bullet. So the "empty case" is just due to smokeless powder only but originally there was NO empty airspace present.

Is this correct? Any scientistic opinions?
 
NO leading detectable.

Sincerely: I can not see any leading. I use animal marker sticks Crayons (Hauptner&Herberholz made in Germany) as bullet lube (are made of varios waxes and parrafins and melting Point is about 176 Farenheit or 80 degrees Celsius).

I use SOFT LEAD BULLETS. The softer the better I guess to get Obturation.
I use Wheel wheights which are often highly with Zinc Content (so the bullets have wrinkles). I understood Zinc isn't as bad for bullets it is just hard to cast.

Bullets are used as cast and have Diameter of between .356" and .362". The higher Diameters Show a Little bulge and lead Stripping but till now they loaded all well.
 
As I have understood the 357 mag has a slightly thicker brass tapering about 3/4 of it's lenght (so 3/4 of it's length it is very thick brass but tapering towards the end).
Click to expand...

That's about right and that's my point. If you are pushing these bullets down deep enough to hit that inside taper you are swegging the bases down to a smaller diameter.

.356 to .362 is one heck of a spread for a cast bullet for the same caliber. .362 is what we use up here for .38S&W which is really different than .357 mag which is .358.

If your cases are resizing your bullet's bases from .362 to . who knows, than I would have thought the accuracy would have suffered a lot more than you are saying.

.356 is already to small for a soft lead bullet in a .357 barrel to start with to get good accuracy.

What ever. If it works for you ...
 
I guess things have changed a lot south of the border since everything in the world was available on the gray/black market up to about 94.

Anyway, if you can 'Legally' buy a firearm, then you would think there would be an avenue to buy ammo/components...

Between the soviet block dumping guns/ammo down there, the US dumping guns/ammo down there, the drug cartels importing guns/ammo as fast as people can deliver them, and the communist leaning 'Rebels' making guns/ammo as fast as they can import steel/chemicals...

I was particularly impressed with FARC copy of the M79 grenade launcher,
Looked and operated just like the Viet Nam issue...

Anyway, I get you are in SA, and I get you are trying to cobble together something you can shoot...
*IF* 'Proper' ammunition or reloading supplies are not LEGALLY available, then I'm not sure this conversation should be taking place...

Some people thing its 'OK' to skirt the law, I'm not one of them.
I trained 'Contras' (thugs) for a fabricated war,
I saw those paramilitary trained types go to work for drug dealers,
Then I saw them go to work for actual 'Communists' once the drug dealers got wiped...
I don't want to train the next generation over Internet...
 
For a while I was loading .38/44 High Velocity (look it up) for my Marlin because I have a lot more .38 Special brass than .357 Magnum, and also I can load one more round in the magazine. They are perfectly safe in the rifle or any other .357 Magnum, but I don't load them anymore because they will fit in any .38 Special, and after I'm gone someone might try to shoot them in the wrong gun.

Once upon a time, Federal made a 9mm rimmed cartridge. They discontinued it because it would chamber in a .38 S&W, and there are weak 100 year old .38 S&W guns out there. Old Iver Johnson break-tops, etc. :eek:

Look up some old-ish (about 10 years back) load data for .357 Magnum using 148 grain wadcutters. Off the top of my head, I think that uses about 5.7 grains of Bullseye but don't you dare load that w/o looking up the real data yourself. Alliant also had load data for other powders for this bullet, like Unique and Green Dot. Use hard lead cast bullets, not soft swaged lead. That should get you a very cheap cartridge that shoots similar to 9mm, and it will only chamber in a .357 Magnum. Pay careful attention to the overall length because seating the bullet just a little too deep can really jack up the pressure.
 
Yes Sir Jeep Hammer,

Very interesting your life experience.
I completely understand you do not want to "Train" People over the Internet who can an will stab you in the back once they have an opportunity.

However I am not going to war with my reloading. Reloading is just an Sport for me as it is for US People.

{Edit: Terrorism isn't really a matter of race. The IRA and KKK have both proven that in the past. For an interesting exploration of where terrorists come from, find the recent episode of Through The Wormhole on this subject.}

Forbidden calibers are (locally) 223 556 308 kalashnikow calibers, 50 cal. and all "assault rifles" as well kalashnikov Looks rifle. However all These guns you can buy on local gun Shops except kalashnikovs, 7.62 ammo and AR style rifles. As well the respective ammo you can buy legally.
Basically: WHAT SLIPS THROUGH CUSTOMS AND LOCAL GUN AGENCY IS CONSIDERED LEGAL. If they stop it at customs, it is illegal and they send it back (no legal Investigation just they do not let it through passing into the Country).
It is Kind of iffy: gun powder is not forbidden but can not be shipped. Primers I can order from the US and they freely enter the Country previous passing the national gun agency. If you have the Money you can have it (guns are restricted here basically to rich and wealthy People. Although they will never admit it officially).
Down south here skirting the law is the only way to stay in Business (considering one bribe here and there is considered "skirting")
 
zxcvbob,

Thank you for your very helpfull info.

Don't worry. I will never load 5.7 grains of Bullseye type powder (scavenged shotshells) in my 9mm Luger or These 38 spl deep seated. That will most likely blow the gun.

I checked the Lyman reloading Manual 44th Edition (old Manual) and it states:
BULLSEYE POWDER behind 121 grain lead bullet:
9mm Luger: min 3.5; max 4.8 grain
38 spl: min 2.0; 3.8 max grains
357 Magnum: min 3.0; 4.5 max grains.

You see the Point? I use an 124 grain cast bullet and let's assume my scavenged shotshell powder is similar to Bullseye.
Max loads for 9mm Luger and 357 mag are very Close. However with both I stay eighter below the Minimum or right at starting Charge.
Even with 38 spl I am way below Maximum powder Charge.
Considered 9mm Luger has no empty airspace in the case and both 38 spl and 357 Magnum do have lots.
Conclusion: difference between 9mm Luger and 357 mag is the Magnum can hold more powder as it does so it could theoretically be loaded with 15 grains of powder and shot in an appropiated gun rated to lets say 300000 PSI. As is the 357 mag COULD hold way more powder and is not up to it's theoretical potential. 9mm Luger however is optimised in the sense it is about allways full of powder and can not hold any more powder in an considerable way. For 9mm Luger the case is full of powder while the 357 Magnum is at best 1/2 full of powder of an given powder like Bullseye.

9mm Luger is efficient and 357 Magnum not.
 
The difference in 38 Special and 357 Magnum is the length of the case. The longer 357 case was created after 357 load levels had first been achieved up in heavy 44 frame revolvers specially chambered in 38 Special by S&W for Elmer Keith, IIRC. Elmer Keith, D. B. Wesson and Philip Sharpe were all eventually involved in the 357's development. Call them 38 +P+P+ if you want to. The longer case and chamber were created to ensure the higher pressure loads would not accidentally fit in a 38 Special chamber in a light revolver and blow it up.

From Starline's site: "357 Mag Brass: Basically a lengthened version of the .38 special…"


TheGuyOfSouthamerica,

The shotgun powders you are using can be faster burning than the highest performance 357 powders. With light shot weight target loads, they are most likely similar to Red Dot, so you probably cannot use their powder to obtain either maximum 357 or 9 mm velocities without exceeding pressure limits even for 357 magnum. Shotgun shells with the heaviest shot weight and highest velocity, though, typically have powders that are closer to 357 Magnum powders. High velocity 410 shotgun shells with 1/2 ounce of shot often use magnum pistol type powders. Alliant shows 2400 and 300MP used in some of their highest velocity loads for this gauge and shot weight, both of which are powders used in 357 Magnum loads.

The problem you will have is knowing which powder you have and how it will perform. I would keep them separated by the kind of shell they came from. Slow and careful load workup is required with unknown powders. It is not normally recommended to do this at all, but you are in a supply situation not unlike some emergency situations envisioned by survivalists, where commercial sources of powder are cut off.

In a revolver, sticky extraction of fired cases is the main pressure sign to watch for. Except for some very low pressure loads where unburned powder makes the case stick in the chamber, it usually means you have a high pressure load for which the steel of the chamber is expanding with the brass beyond the elastic limit of the brass (around half a thousandth to a thousandth of an inch), after which the more elastic steel returns to shape and clamps down on the stretched brass. like a resizing die. It means the steel is stretching too much when you get this symptom and the charge weight should be reduced 5% from the level at which this symptom first appears.

I am curious, since you have to get powder from shotshells, how are you able to get primers for your 38 Special cases?
 
Unclenick and all others,

That is the iffy Thing about it: gun powder is NOT availlable locally (although they "say" it is legal but nobody will ship it) but primers can be imported freely (previous passing through national gun agency for approval). My ordered 10000 WSP primers are about to arrive. As well I will buy another 10000 primers once the local gun shop get's it's shipment in.
DON'T ASK ME ABOUT THE LOGICS OF LAWS, LEGISLATIONS AND LEGISLATORS (they seems to "swimm along according to the current main stream").
That Shows the General Degradation off whole countries and it's leaders and General People not having another Goal as the own enrichment and Money gathering.

WARNING! These deep seated bullets Show now incipent case-head Separation (bulges) when seated from FLUSH to 0.125" depth.
As I saw the bulges I immediately backed off the seating depth to 0.100" and now I do NOT get bulges. Before I had an seating depth (from flush) of 0.086".
I tried to seat the bullet flush but that gives way less Penetration and recoil so as that it is to weak (to less energy).

These 0.125" deep seated from flush got an 5" grouping at 25 meters and an 3.5" grouping at 15 meters. Honestly I CAN NOT SEE ANY SIGNS OF LEADING (not more than normal).
 
Yes Unclenick,

I realised:
The 9mm Luger S&W SD9VE with an 17 lbs stainless Galloway spring (originally they come with an 18 lbs plastic rod spring) cycles reliably as follows with scavenged powder and 115 grain FMJ:
* Orbea argentinian shotshell (1 1/8 oz shot) powder: 4.0 grains of this powder with 115 grain FMJ bullet.
* Saga spanish shotshell (1 1/4 oz shot) powder: 4.3 grains of this powder with 115 grain FMJ bullet.

The Orbea has 25 grain powder in an 12 ga shotshell and the Saga has 28 grain powder in an 12 ga shotshell. The Saga states 1444 fps and the argentinian states nothing but will be about 1200 fps.
 
Regards the bulged deep seated 38 spl cases.
Besides the bulges I can NOT see any other signs of overpressure. No hard extraction, no backed off primers or other signs of overpressure.

Just bulged near the rim (not all of them bulged but some).
However they did not have nearly an "felt recoil" as factory 357 Magnums do.

Don't know if sizing/depriming or Expander die damaged the case.
I my have had compressed as well the powder when seating that deep (measured with caliper rod 0.125" from flush of case mouth).
 
WOW!

Government restrictions really makes one think.
Click to expand...

Yes they do....this is why we saw those shortages created by "banic" buying a few years ago. Folks thought we ourselves were going to be in the same predicament as TGOS. While I at first thought that TGOS was being foolhardy trying to create his own loads using unknown powders @ random charge rates, and seating bullets way below flush, I see know it's not because of inexperience and foolhardiness, but rather out of necessity.

That is the iffy Thing about it: gun powder is NOT availlable locally (although they "say" it is legal but nobody will ship it) but primers can be imported freely (previous passing through national gun agency for approval).
Click to expand...

I wonder if this is because folks in control there, are afraid the powder may be used to create explosive devices? Primers they see as no threat, but with powder and a little ingenuity(and a pressure cooker)you can make a bomb. Or is it just a way of controlling the amount folks are able to shoot and use their weapons? Interesting, since shotgun shells also seem to be readily available.

As others have said, kudos for giving it your best and staying safe. Hopefully the day will come when you can get powder as readily as you can get primers.
 
When I replied earlier, I didn't realize that you can't buy powder and are having to improvise.

Have you considered using black powder? It should work well in .357 Magnum cases, and okay in .38 Specials. You can make black powder yourself. It's even possible to make your own nitrate from straw and urine, and convert it to saltpeter using potash or wood ashes (chicken manure will yield more than urine, if you have a source of that)
 
Thanks guys,

Finally you got it. In Southamerica (actually most countries there) you can not get gun powder. Much less the governement welcomes it when you reload.

You guys are correct. In this Country there was rising an self proclamated "Army of the People" which Kidnappes People and asks for ransom, assaulting Police and Military stations, putting "booby traps" on roads for the Military trucks and stealing guns from Military after they killed them. In the last 10 years this Country once so peacefull turned out to be an Mayor drug Producer and exporter. As well before 10 years almost nobody used drugs here but local drug consumtion has become an Mayor Problem recently.
This Peoples Army is probably sponsored by the Colombians or brasilian drug cartels. Who knows it for sure.
As well drug related delicts are rising and assaults as well very dramatically.

In this light you should see as well my thread in "law and civil rigths" Testimony of Gun Control under Nazi-Austria & COMPARISONS to our time and politics here https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=579895.

I hope the US does not become like this but as you can see there is allways a solution if you use your head. The above thread is not far from reality in other countries and it is a warning for the US and Canada.

In Brazil for example you can get gun powder after you registred. But you can get only guns of a relativ weak caliber. Here in my Country we can have allmost every gun and reloading Equipment legally but ... there is not gun powder availlable.
To consider:
In this Country of Southamerica 85% of all riches, land , Money and production capacity is owned by 2% of the Population.
You can imagine the consecuences ....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top