Bullet seating extremely deep in 38 spl case to recreate 9mm Luger performance

T

TheGuyOfSouthamerica

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Dear all,

I wonder what you think abouth this seating depth of this Lee TC TL .356 inch diameter lead bullet seated deep in 38 spl case.

See attached photo. I hope you can see it. Left is the 9mm Luger cast bullet; in the middle is the 9mm Luger reloaded and on the rigth is the "newly created round by myself".

Like that it performs as does an 9mm Luger.

I took the above lead cast bullet as unsized and seated it deep (disappears completely in the case) in the 38 spl case.
Pressure = velocity = Penetration. Since pressure is directly related to powder Charge and empty airspace in the case so it is possible to recreate the 9mm Luger in the 38 spl case for Revolvers. P=n/v were n is the powder Charge and v is the empty space Volumen in the case.

It has similar recoil to an 9mm Luger.

What you guys think about this? Any opinions. Has anyone personal experience with this same reload? Has anyone seen this before?
 

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I'm no ballistics expert by any means, but two red flags started waving when I looked at that picture. First, I crimp revolver rounds so the bullets don't move while firing. You can't crimp your experimental loads. Second, aren't 9mm pressures way higher than .39 Spec pressures? Even +P? A handgun designed to shoot .38 Spec is not beefy enough to handle the pressures you could be getting with that deep seated bullet. KABOOM.
 
Have you shot them? My concern is a bulge created by seating the bullet so deep and them not clambering.

I'm pretty sure, when most people want less recoil, they use a reduced load. I'd just use your 9mm charge in the 38 case

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
I just did a quick search on these pressures. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 9mm is 35,001 PSI and .38 Spec is 17,000 PSI. I would think you may run into problems on some .38 Spec handguns when you double the SAAMI max pressure specs.
 
The gun used to shoot These "new creations" is an SAA 1873 Pietta 357 Magnum Revolver.

I crimp the rounds with taper crimp (to undue the expanding of the case mouth).

The bullets sit very firmly in the case. I tried to apply uttermost force to push 'em down but they by all means do NOT MOVE. There is no Chance they will Experiment an seat back issue.
Cast bullets are "as cast" and NO SIZING.
Diameter of These bullets vary between .356" to .362". I use them allways "as is". Sometimes I get a lead shaving off when seated/crimped. I assure you those are very well locked in place. This however does not work with FMJ 9mm Luger commercial bullets as they slide up and down.

I assume 38 spl casings are the same as 357 mag since the later are just elongated 38 spl cases.
 
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nhyrum,

I have shot them. They DO NOT bulge. Although some Show slightly bulge but they chamber fine. Bulge is in my experience due to too much crimping (in my case I taper crimp).

If the Volumen of the empty airspace gets bigger I GET NO PRESSURE OR VELOCITY WHATSOEVER. I tried it. Case Volumen between powder Charge and bullet is crucial. Too much an you have an bullet what falls after 20 meters to the ground (in case I would seat the bullet to normal 38 spl specs). I tried it. Worse on that is the 357 Magnum (for this to get same pressure I have to seat the bullet deeper since the case is longer).
 
First off, the .38 rim round has been around since black powder days, early on in black powder revolver days,
VERY easy to blow up older .38 revolvers with your 'Creation'.

Now, since you are using a .357 revolver, you have a pretty good chance of NOT blowing up the cylinder.

Recommending this for a .38 revolver, Especally an older .38 is blindingly dangerous...

At what point don't you simply buy a revolver with 9mm & .357 cylinders, changing cylinders for your choice of ammo?
No dangerous snafu can happen that way?...
 
I wonder what you think abouth this seating depth of this Lee TC TL .356 inch diameter lead bullet seated deep in 38 spl case.

Like that it performs as does an 9mm Luger.
Click to expand...
If I was sorting all the posts here into two piles - "Intelligent" and "Anything else", this one would NOT be in the "Intelligent" pile.
 
JeepHammer, Mauser 98,

Obviously this would be extremely dangerous Shooting it in an 38 spl Revolver. It has 9mm Luger pressures but (by feel) less than an factory 357 Magnum. That is why I load it referenced to the SD9VE pistol were it just cycles to be on the safe and lowest powder Charge side.

I use the Heritage (Pietta made) Rough Rider 357 Magnum SAA 5.5" Revolver.
I contacted Pietta and Heritage for a spare cylinder but "they ain't makin' any".

Over her in Southamerica I paid for this Revolver about 800 USD (in the US they can be had for about max 400 USD). An Ruger Blackhawk convertible would cost her about 2500 US$ since such Ruger SP101 in 357 mag are already about 2000 US$ locally.

In Southamerica you are forced to Experiment since reloading is eighter forbidden or no supplyes are availlable regularly.

As I see it the only Thing seating that cast bullet so deep in an 38 spl case (you can use an 357 mag case as well) is it travels a fairly length in the case, then it enters the cylinder, then the forcing cone and then the Barrel. That is the only difference as I see it. It just Looks unusual (unusual things are CRAZY for Mainstream thinkers).
 
As well I figure the additional brass strengthens the whole System since it acts as an reinforced cylinder wall.
This Revolver has fairly thick cylinder walls since the 1873 SAA is designed for 45 LC and this Revolver is almost an exact clone with modern materials made.
 
I assume 38 spl casings are the same as 357 mag since the later are just elongated 38 spl cases.
Click to expand...

As well I figure the additional brass strengthens the whole System since it acts as an reinforced cylinder wall.
Click to expand...

These two statements alone tell me that you are at a point in your personal reloading that is too early to start experimenting......safely. What you are attempting to do is create .357 loads using .38 cases and .38 special charge rates and using assumptions that what you are doing is safe. While what you are doing may be safe, assuming they are, is not.

In Southamerica you are forced to Experiment since reloading is eighter forbidden or no supplyes are availlable regularly.
Click to expand...

If it is illegal to reload where you are at, you are asking us to help you break the law by asking for our advice. By giving you advice we are condoning an illegal activity. Something that is generally forbidden here.
 
First, TheGuyOfSouthamerica, please read this sticky. Since this is in a 38 Special case, that warning is required as the load will go over 38 Special pressures. I have already added it to your first post.

I understand some South American countries forbid private possession of military chamberings. No 9 mm or 45 Auto, for example, nor 30-06, 7.52, 5.56, or other military rifle cartridges. That may be the situation TheGuyOfSouthamerica has to contend with.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica said:
There is no Chance they will Experiment an seat back issue.
Click to expand...

That's not the concern. In a revolver, recoil drives the cylinder back which pulls on the rims of the cases. Since the unfired bullets in the remaining cartridges have inertia, that action can pull the cases backward off the bullets, moving bullets out if their case. It's just like an inertial bullet puller. In some instances the bullets will come out until they protrude from the chambers, jamming cylinder rotation. With a short bullet in a short case, you might actually see a bullet fall out of the throat and dump powder in the chamber. I suspect you might do best to shorten the cases to the length of the 38 S&W so you can apply a roll crimp.

If your gun is heavy enough it won't recoil hard enough to cause bullets to come out, but you want to check the last round just before you fire it to see if that's happening. Otherwise, there is no particular reason in principle that this should not work. Just develop the loads carefully. Be aware that not all .38 Special powders are suitable for loading to 9 mm pressures without risking unexpected pressures.

Old 38 Special cases were OK for this as the 357 Magnum was developed using them. Some modern 38 Special cases may be made thinner to reduce the cost of the amount of brass they have to use, so watch out for primer pockets that get loose, or other signs the pressure is too high for the brass.
 
If reloading is allowed or forbidden changes with the People in Charge at the gun agency. Depends of bribery as well.
Consider bribery, corruption, etc as legal same as abortion, same sex marriage, alcohol, euthanasia, cigarettes, etc. Kind of mankind makes legal according to the current Mainstream opinions (it is Kind of fluid)

All relaoding Equipment is legal, but powder not. In These countries you just can assume something is legal if it passes customs. If it does not pass customs you can just hope it was illegal for the Moment or personell changes at customs or gun agency.
Even powder is legal but shipping companies refuse to ship from USA to Southamerica. Legallity and illegality depends on whom you ask!
 
Thanks Unclenick,

What applies to 38 spl same applies to 357 Magnum. If you see "38 spl" just read "357 Magnum".

Yes that seems be right on.
Although I DO TAPER CRIMP THE cases fairly heavily. I taper crimp to that extend I risk sometimes crunching the case mouth. SO THEY ARE CRIMPED (as tapering the case mouth).
I figure if the bullets would slide foreward there will NOT be an pressure issue since the empty airspace of case Volumen gets bigger and pressure Drops.

Infringing local laws is not an issue since if some caliber is forbidden, I will not even get such gun. In Brazil yes all Military calibers are NOT allowed. In Brazil they can have all shotgun calibers and for handgun Revolvers till 38 spl and pistols till 380 acp.
All my guns are legal (I Import myself the guns to avoid intermediary through an FFL dealer who is registred locally as well) and registred. We have here gun Registration.
 
I reiterate: THESE MY "NEW INVENTED RELOAD" MUST ONLY SHOT IN 357 MAGNUM RATED GUNS OR OTHERWISE WHO CAN HANDLE 35000 PSI OF PRESSURE.

All other things are frankly too dangerous and shall not be done.

I assume you can shoot 38 spl in 357 Magnum guns and therefore reload 38 spl cases to 357 Magnum pressures and be fairly safe.
Otherwise: Use a gun allways implies a slight danger and we assume propper gun and ammo knowledge.
 
I never have seen an bullet fall out of the case while firing. As well I made 9mm Federal Rimmed (+p+ 38 short colt shot in 357 magnum) but changed to this deep seating the bullet in an regular 38 spl case since it is a tedios Job to cut down the 357 Magnum/38 spl cases to 19mm.

I figured why not just load the bullets same depth as 9mm Luger (same empty airspace in case) instead of going through the hassle of cutting off the Long cases to get an 9mm Federal Rimmed.
 
but changed to this deep seating the bullet in an regular 38 spl case since it is a tedios Job to cut down the 357 Magnum/38 spl cases to 19mm.
Click to expand...

Not if you have the Lyman universal trimmer with drill attachment .
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/72...h-case-trimmer-kit-power-adapter-and-9-pilots

I cut this 223 case down in less then 10 sec

eRxfLo.jpg


See video at 4min to see how quick it guts down brass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs4BDE6T0UM
 
The USAF once tested deep seated .38 bullets to improve the performance of the 130 grain FMJ military load. It was very hard on their S&W Model 15 .38 Specials.

A friend once deep seated some .38 Supers so he would not have to increase the powder charge to make Major power factor for IPSC. The increase in pressure was enough to blow out a casehead.

You can probably get away with it in a Magnum revolver, but I do not see the advantage over conventional Magnum cartridges.
 
I am normally pro "experimenting" but in this case, and reading the OP's other posts/threads, I think this is ill conceived, not given much thought. Want a 38 to duplicate 9mm? First, that's what reloading is for, but the 38 is not designed for much over 1,100 fps. Second, If one is in need of 9mm performance, get a 9mm. If one wants a 35 caliber to be more powerful than a 38, get a .357 Magnum.

Perhaps it's a language thing, but I can't understand a lot of the OP's statements...
 
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