wild cat mccane
New member
Exactly. I wouldn't call the HK throats small.
So...
So...
Buffalobore .45 acp +P Outdoorsmand chronoed
- Thread starter HighValleyRanch
- Start date
This is the ammo under discussion.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=395
Folks can read the specifics there.
It's the latter hard cast loads that are under discussion in particular here.
Over the years I've found that BB loads, particularly the +P and +P+ loads can leave the factory with bulged cases. That is cases that are bulged over factory standards for loaded ammo or handloads and will not fit in all guns chambered for the round intended.
Over a decade ago I returned an box of 357 ammo to them with a 180 gr bullet in them because the ammo would not load properly in a S&W Model 27. To get the rounds in would have required a push or a tap to drive the rounds into the cylinder. This is not something you want to do as it almost always means an issue with extraction or ejection at the least.
tipoc
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=395
Folks can read the specifics there.
It's the latter hard cast loads that are under discussion in particular here.
Over the years I've found that BB loads, particularly the +P and +P+ loads can leave the factory with bulged cases. That is cases that are bulged over factory standards for loaded ammo or handloads and will not fit in all guns chambered for the round intended.
Over a decade ago I returned an box of 357 ammo to them with a 180 gr bullet in them because the ammo would not load properly in a S&W Model 27. To get the rounds in would have required a push or a tap to drive the rounds into the cylinder. This is not something you want to do as it almost always means an issue with extraction or ejection at the least.
tipoc
Was the brass bulged or the bullet a little to big? The brass they use should all be the same dimension whether regular loads, +p or +p+. The problem with the rounds in this thread appear to be because the throat/leade wasn’t large enough.
If the rounds work in some guns but not others it’s quite possible the barrel manufacturer just took the cheap way out and didn’t cut a decent throat on the gun. Any handloader shooting cast bullets will benefit from a smooth transition into the rifling. Having the throat cut appropriately isn’t taking a shortcut, it’s fixing what the manufacturer should have done in the first place.
No one who makes 1911's for the past 30+ years has produced bad throats on barrels. Throats are not the issue here at any rate.
The op pointed out that some (not all) BB bullets would not chamber all the way in his Kahr and it was reported the same for other makes of 45s. The issue was not a jam where the bullet would hang up on the meplat. The issue was the bullets would enter the chamber but not completely. This was also seen when dropped manually into the chamber. This means that the case was bulged and oversized in diameter at some point along the length of the case. Myself and others have seen this in some BB products.
In a semi this means the round would not reliably go into battery due to an oversized case that was bulged due to poor loading practice.
That the bullets function is Glocks should be no surprise as Glocks use chambers that are larger by about .003 than standard barrel chambers used by other manufacturers.
tipoc
The op pointed out that some (not all) BB bullets would not chamber all the way in his Kahr and it was reported the same for other makes of 45s. The issue was not a jam where the bullet would hang up on the meplat. The issue was the bullets would enter the chamber but not completely. This was also seen when dropped manually into the chamber. This means that the case was bulged and oversized in diameter at some point along the length of the case. Myself and others have seen this in some BB products.
In a semi this means the round would not reliably go into battery due to an oversized case that was bulged due to poor loading practice.
That the bullets function is Glocks should be no surprise as Glocks use chambers that are larger by about .003 than standard barrel chambers used by other manufacturers.
tipoc
wild cat mccane
New member
Kinda sounds like it's BB loading a round that *should* function in some, but otherwise won't in others.
A disclaimer would be nice...
A disclaimer would be nice...
I suspect that the issue here may be an incompatibility between the bullet ogive and the throats on some barrels. Looking at the picture on BB's website, it appears that the bullet they use in their 255gr LFN .45 ACP load uses a "fat" ogive for lack of a better term. If certain barrels have shorter throats than others, this could prevent an "in spec" round from chambering fully because, while diameter and OAL are correct, the bullet is jamming into the rifling before the round can fully chamber.
This is not dissimilar to the issues that first-time handloaders sometimes have with 7.5x55 ammo in K31 rifles. The original Swiss GP11 loading uses a standard .308" bullet, but it is more slender than most and K31's have shorter throats than most other 30 caliber rifles. This means that the majority of .308" bullets must be seated a bit deeper in order to properly chamber in a K31.
I've even run into a similar issue with .45 ACP myself. My first attempt at reloading the cartridge was with Berry's 230 gr plated FNHP bullets. I seated these to the same OAL as Federal factory 230 gr FMJ over a modest charge of Unique and they fed and chambered fine in both my S&W 1911 and Ruger P90. However, when I tried to shoot the same batch of reloads in my newly-aquired Ruger SR-45 (bought after the ammo had been loaded) nearly every round required a sharp rap on the back of the slide to chamber fully (the gun ran flawlessly with all manner of factory ammo). Simply seating the bullets a bit deeper cured the issue and wasn't a problem to do because I was loading a relatively mild load.
In Bufflao Bore's case, I suspect that this particular loading is near the upper end of +P pressure and likely loaded close to maximum OAL to keep the pressure within safe specs. While seating the bullet deeper might help alleviate the chambering issue in some guns, it would likely also bump the pressure over max.
Seems to me this load might be viable in .45 Auto-chambered revolvers but, as with any ammo to be used for "serious" purposes it should be tested for function before being relied upon, particularly in a semi-auto.
This is not dissimilar to the issues that first-time handloaders sometimes have with 7.5x55 ammo in K31 rifles. The original Swiss GP11 loading uses a standard .308" bullet, but it is more slender than most and K31's have shorter throats than most other 30 caliber rifles. This means that the majority of .308" bullets must be seated a bit deeper in order to properly chamber in a K31.
I've even run into a similar issue with .45 ACP myself. My first attempt at reloading the cartridge was with Berry's 230 gr plated FNHP bullets. I seated these to the same OAL as Federal factory 230 gr FMJ over a modest charge of Unique and they fed and chambered fine in both my S&W 1911 and Ruger P90. However, when I tried to shoot the same batch of reloads in my newly-aquired Ruger SR-45 (bought after the ammo had been loaded) nearly every round required a sharp rap on the back of the slide to chamber fully (the gun ran flawlessly with all manner of factory ammo). Simply seating the bullets a bit deeper cured the issue and wasn't a problem to do because I was loading a relatively mild load.
In Bufflao Bore's case, I suspect that this particular loading is near the upper end of +P pressure and likely loaded close to maximum OAL to keep the pressure within safe specs. While seating the bullet deeper might help alleviate the chambering issue in some guns, it would likely also bump the pressure over max.
Seems to me this load might be viable in .45 Auto-chambered revolvers but, as with any ammo to be used for "serious" purposes it should be tested for function before being relied upon, particularly in a semi-auto.
We think everything should work in everything, because so much of it does, BUT, you won't see any written anything from any maker saying it will.
You might see an "intended for modern firearms originally chambered in this cartridge" or something similar, IF that.
Somebody's ammo (or a specific load of that ammo) not working in everything is not a new thing, sometimes, it happens.
I know of a case where a fellow had some Cor-Bon 9mm. great stuff, premium ammo, worked flawlessly in everything...except 3 different Walther pistols!
Sometimes the stars line up the wrong way, the entrails are not favorable, and things that "ought" to work just don't. Stacking tolerances or short throats or what ever the reason...
I find Buffalo Bore ammo entertaining. I don't buy it, or shoot it, (first, I'm too cheap, second I handload so my needs are met that way), but I have read their ads and their ammo boxes.
They seem to be about spot on with their velocity claims, allowing for variance due to individual guns. They don't tell you what the load is, or what the pressure is, (and they don't HAVE to) they tell you what guns they have tested their ammo in, and it is safe, in those guns. Sometimes they tell you what guns NOT to use their ammo in.
Literally, if BB doesn't state their ammo is ok in a certain gun, then you are rolling the dice.
High pressure? I'd think so. But I'm also in the camp that thinks the actual pressure NUMBER is fairly irrelevant. If its safe, its safe, if not, not.
Considering this,
Hmmmm, lets see, a bullet 10% heavier than GI ball, doing GI ball speed (850) or more from a barrel 1.5 inches shorter than the standard 5 inch 1911A1 barrel.
What do you think the pressure is to do that??
I'd think its a bit higher than GI Ball ammo. But if BB says its safe in a specific gun, then I'd assume it is. We certainly don't see reports here about gun failures (drastic or otherwise) caused by Buffalo Bore ammo, in guns BB says they tested and found safe.
We do see some "it won't fit in my gun" but I put that in a different category.
I'm not praising BB, and I'm not condemning them. Just saying that their policy of stating what they tested their ammo in and not making claims that it is ok in anything else seems pretty clear and straight forward, to me.
And if you're using their ammo in anything they don't specifically list, you shouldn't assume it will work, or be safe. It might be, but don't automatically assume it will be. BB doesn't, you shouldn't, either.
You might see an "intended for modern firearms originally chambered in this cartridge" or something similar, IF that.
Somebody's ammo (or a specific load of that ammo) not working in everything is not a new thing, sometimes, it happens.
I know of a case where a fellow had some Cor-Bon 9mm. great stuff, premium ammo, worked flawlessly in everything...except 3 different Walther pistols!
Sometimes the stars line up the wrong way, the entrails are not favorable, and things that "ought" to work just don't. Stacking tolerances or short throats or what ever the reason...
I find Buffalo Bore ammo entertaining. I don't buy it, or shoot it, (first, I'm too cheap, second I handload so my needs are met that way), but I have read their ads and their ammo boxes.
They seem to be about spot on with their velocity claims, allowing for variance due to individual guns. They don't tell you what the load is, or what the pressure is, (and they don't HAVE to) they tell you what guns they have tested their ammo in, and it is safe, in those guns. Sometimes they tell you what guns NOT to use their ammo in.
Literally, if BB doesn't state their ammo is ok in a certain gun, then you are rolling the dice.
High pressure? I'd think so. But I'm also in the camp that thinks the actual pressure NUMBER is fairly irrelevant. If its safe, its safe, if not, not.
Considering this,
and this
Hmmmm, lets see, a bullet 10% heavier than GI ball, doing GI ball speed (850) or more from a barrel 1.5 inches shorter than the standard 5 inch 1911A1 barrel.
What do you think the pressure is to do that??
I'd think its a bit higher than GI Ball ammo. But if BB says its safe in a specific gun, then I'd assume it is. We certainly don't see reports here about gun failures (drastic or otherwise) caused by Buffalo Bore ammo, in guns BB says they tested and found safe.
We do see some "it won't fit in my gun" but I put that in a different category.
I'm not praising BB, and I'm not condemning them. Just saying that their policy of stating what they tested their ammo in and not making claims that it is ok in anything else seems pretty clear and straight forward, to me.
And if you're using their ammo in anything they don't specifically list, you shouldn't assume it will work, or be safe. It might be, but don't automatically assume it will be. BB doesn't, you shouldn't, either.
wild cat mccane
New member
You'd tolerate that philosophy in any other product that has a common fit use?
Say, gas in your car may or might not work for your car?
Angled finished nails may or not work in your angled nail gun?
0.7 lead may or may not work in your .7 mechanical pencil?
Yuck. No thanks to that libertarian noise.
If everyone in here with an HK says it hasn't worked for them, BB should say that it doesn't work with HK.
HK also doesn't have anything special about it in their barrels. So it makes this round a very specific application.
Say, gas in your car may or might not work for your car?
Angled finished nails may or not work in your angled nail gun?
0.7 lead may or may not work in your .7 mechanical pencil?
Yuck. No thanks to that libertarian noise.
If everyone in here with an HK says it hasn't worked for them, BB should say that it doesn't work with HK.
HK also doesn't have anything special about it in their barrels. So it makes this round a very specific application.
What's a "common fit use"? do you mean like the sizes on your clothes?
Some doesn't. Or doesn't work as well. That's why there are different grades.
I don't have an angled nail gun, no idea what does or doesn't work in one.
Don't have mechanical pencils, so same as the nail gun.
This part I simply do not understand. Don't you believe in freedom of choice?
Why should the maker, of anything be required to test every possible thing a consumer might do with their product? No one can. As I understand it, Buffalo Bore names what guns they have tested their ammo in. They make no claim beyond that. How is it their responsibility to test it in the oddball gun you or I have?
Fed/Rem/Win etc say things like "intended for use in..." even they don't claim it WILL work, only that it is intended to...
If you want ammo that is guaranteed to work in every single gun on earth with that caliber marked on it, better tool up and make it yourself, because you won't find it otherwise.
wild cat mccane
New member
Defend it all you want, but I'm betting what people are getting out of this is Buffalo Bore should be treaded with caution when ordering a sized bullet to fit their sized gun.
Like, is this just a known issue to everyone on here for this 45? Is there another in their catalog that does this?
Given their price, it's unreasonable that a "major" manufacturer has this known issue...
Like, is this just a known issue to everyone on here for this 45? Is there another in their catalog that does this?
Given their price, it's unreasonable that a "major" manufacturer has this known issue...
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wild cat mccane:
I loves me some Fiocchi ammo. Absolute favorite is their 12ga Golden Pheasant loads. I put some Loaded with #6 shot & IC choke, it makes look competent up close with a shotgun vs yummy, yummy pheasant. Loaded with #4 or #5 and a full choke, it makes me look like a long-range wingshooting beast vs the p-birds.
And my SW686 loves their 158gr .357mag SJHP. But my titanium cylindered revolver from Taurus has the empty shells stick in the cylinder.
My old sub-compact .45ACP did not like Cor-bon 165gr JHP or any 155gr wadcutters.
Industry specs prevent many incompatibilities, but there are other factors that may make a particular gun/ammo combination incompatible. That's just the way it is. Make sure you thoroughly test your social ammo and test a box of your range ammo before buying it in pallet increments.
I loves me some Fiocchi ammo. Absolute favorite is their 12ga Golden Pheasant loads. I put some Loaded with #6 shot & IC choke, it makes look competent up close with a shotgun vs yummy, yummy pheasant. Loaded with #4 or #5 and a full choke, it makes me look like a long-range wingshooting beast vs the p-birds.
And my SW686 loves their 158gr .357mag SJHP. But my titanium cylindered revolver from Taurus has the empty shells stick in the cylinder.
My old sub-compact .45ACP did not like Cor-bon 165gr JHP or any 155gr wadcutters.
Industry specs prevent many incompatibilities, but there are other factors that may make a particular gun/ammo combination incompatible. That's just the way it is. Make sure you thoroughly test your social ammo and test a box of your range ammo before buying it in pallet increments.
The above is true.
Not all brands or even types of ammo work well in all guns. This is inconvenient but it's also true. It's been true for a long time and will continue to be true.
In my opinion it's important to try to understand why. It's also important to be ready to switch to another brand of ammo or bullet. Ones that do work.
If you have a gun that works well with brands and type ammo A to E but doesn't work with brand F then it's not the fault of the gun it's an issue between the gun and that particular ammo. Sometimes just that lot or box of ammo.
tipoc
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bamaranger
New member
velocity
Fit and function aside for conversations sake, breaking 900 fps with a 255 gr slug is a stout load. That's running on the heels of the original .45 Colt load too. My own heavy bullet .45 acp loads run 850 from a SIG P220, and that is all the hotter I am willing to load them, though the manual says I can add a few more tenths, I'm not willing to do it. Recoil is noticeably sharper too.
A 255, running at the speed of GI ball, (or it seems a tad faster from the boutique folks) should get the attention of anything it hits, and I'd think about all one could ever get out of the acp case.
Fit and function aside for conversations sake, breaking 900 fps with a 255 gr slug is a stout load. That's running on the heels of the original .45 Colt load too. My own heavy bullet .45 acp loads run 850 from a SIG P220, and that is all the hotter I am willing to load them, though the manual says I can add a few more tenths, I'm not willing to do it. Recoil is noticeably sharper too.
A 255, running at the speed of GI ball, (or it seems a tad faster from the boutique folks) should get the attention of anything it hits, and I'd think about all one could ever get out of the acp case.
Agree, IF you stick to ACP pressure limits. If you aren't limited to those specs in the gun you are using, you can go hotter with the ACP sized case.
I don't shoot the heavier bullets in the ACP but I did have a load that pushed a 200gr JHP at a measured 998fps from a Sig P220. VERY "snappy" ran fine in the Sig, no pressure signs, but cratered primers in a 1911A1 pin gun. The guns simply aren't the same.
Funny, (to me anyways), but I thought everyone knew that not all bullet profiles work in all barrels. The 1911 is usually pretty picky about profiles. I've had 200gr round nose that would hang up in my 1911 run just fine in the Glock 21.
The 255gr required some careful design work for the 45acp.
Btw, I'll post a link to some gel testing of those penetrators - they suck. Stick with the 255gr and try Underwood.
https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com/2019/06/09/underwood-xtreme-penetrators-clear-ballistics-gel/
The 255gr required some careful design work for the 45acp.
Btw, I'll post a link to some gel testing of those penetrators - they suck. Stick with the 255gr and try Underwood.
https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com/2019/06/09/underwood-xtreme-penetrators-clear-ballistics-gel/
bamaranger
New member
Glock
Never tried any of my 255's in the Glock 21. With the factory barrel, I stick with jacketed, or mildly loaded, plated, projectiles. Shot the 255's out of the SIG 'cause it was the only other .45acp on hand,(well, discounting grandad's 1911 mfg 1917) and it had cut rifling.
I would like to see what my 255's would do in gel. I suspect the lead would deform and may well not penetrate any better than GI ball, maybe worse. There is something comfoting in that big slug though. I have an old Speer manual that lists jacketed heavy slugs for the .45acp, but have never tried any, but I used their lead data for the 255's.
Never tried any of my 255's in the Glock 21. With the factory barrel, I stick with jacketed, or mildly loaded, plated, projectiles. Shot the 255's out of the SIG 'cause it was the only other .45acp on hand,(well, discounting grandad's 1911 mfg 1917) and it had cut rifling.
I would like to see what my 255's would do in gel. I suspect the lead would deform and may well not penetrate any better than GI ball, maybe worse. There is something comfoting in that big slug though. I have an old Speer manual that lists jacketed heavy slugs for the .45acp, but have never tried any, but I used their lead data for the 255's.
stagpanther
New member
factory taper crimp die.
This is also where i stopped with these loads. The pistol used is older 1911, heavier recoil spring (18 lbs if memory holds), extended leade (throat), unique powder and a recoil buffer. What was surprising is the excellent accuracy using the 255 lrnfp with both heavy and milder loads. The higher POI is noticeable at 25 yards, maybe an inch to inch and 1/2.