Budget MOA Rifle

I almost always have a 22 with me.

I had a S&W MP15-22, good enough gun once thy sorted out the extraction issue, sure not accurate like I hoped (ARs in general for me)

I have a CZ452 and I like it a lot.

If I was to do over I would get a Savage with the heavy target barrel. More stable.

CZ shoots pretty much anything decently. Mine really likes the Norma TAC 22 (I guess tactical is in, tactical 22 though?)

The only downside is the trigger, just not quite there for adjustable and fine break.

Great field 22

Bolt action get you to take your time and shoot well. Semi auto fun for plinking.
 
A sub-moa rifle is one that will shoot to that level, consistently.
Five shot groups minimum, all the time. Not "sometimes", not a cherry-picked three shot group out of several.

No doubt manufacturers are turning out more accurate rifles, most of which will be accurate "enough" for most people. Problem I see nowadays, is that when someone gets one that shoots 1-1/2"-2" with factory ammo they feel they got a lemon...

Don't buy an entry level factory rifle expecting custom rifle accuracy- you may be lucky and get it, maybe not...
 
Hmmm--kinda agree with that--except someone like Carlos Hathcock might not--to whom one and only one shot is the one that counts.:D

Looked at from that point of view--what is more accurate--the first shot hitting the POA or the consistency of the multiple shot group?
 
tobnpr said:
A sub-moa rifle is one that will shoot to that level, consistently.
Five shot groups minimum, all the time. Not "sometimes", not a cherry-picked three shot group out of several.

No doubt manufacturers are turning out more accurate rifles, most of which will be accurate "enough" for most people. Problem I see nowadays, is that when someone gets one that shoots 1-1/2"-2" with factory ammo they feel they got a lemon...

Don't buy an entry level factory rifle expecting custom rifle accuracy- you may be lucky and get it, maybe not...
Click to expand...

So much for one mans opinion!
 
Having been in the game a while, I can tell you that those so called MOA rifles are a bunch of bull.

They still are 1.5 inch rifles.


It takes some good load development to get them under 1 inch.

That's one reason the Savage Cabela 12FV is such a bargain.

It has a heavy barrel and that gets you 1 inch, 1/2 or so with reloads.

Dicks also has a budge heavy barrel rifle.

Those pencil barrel standards are lucky to get 1.5 inch with 3 shot group.

I have one, throws the first one about 1.5 inches to the left of the next two.

Its off the rifle, I will play with it as a guy claims he can get one to shoot sub MOA 5 shots with the right loads.

Most people shoot factory. A lot of those do not have match grade ammo.

308 has a lot, 6.5 has a lot, 270? 243?
 
Don't discount the M39 Mosins. Those guns are absolute TACK DRIVERS with solid ammo. Surplus ball is dirt cheap and the guns themselves are at an all time low cost due to recent imports of them.

I guarantee they are built better and far, FAR tougher than anything you listed. They are in short, phenomenal rifles.
 
Don't discount the M39 Mosins. Those guns are absolute TACK DRIVERS with solid ammo. * * *
Click to expand...

Depends on what "solid" ammo you're referring to, but Mosins are generally "tack drivers" as compared to Mini-14s. ;)
 
tobnpr said:
Actually, I see nothing that's "opinion" about that post.

What, exactly, would your rebuttal be?
Click to expand...

Didn't think you would. You think because someone report's a three shot group it's from one time, I think you called it cherry picked. Well lot of hunter's shoot three shot group's to sight in rifles and to develop loads with, we find it perfectly alright. I guess match shooter's would say your wrong, only way to test accuracy is with a 10 shot group. Simple fact of like. If your hunting and within reasonable range of the animal, getting even the third shot could be no more than a dream. How about the one shot group? If every time you take your rifle out and fire one shot that always hit's in the same general are, is the rifle sighted in? Probably but I just like to shoot more than that!

Your opinion is that anything less than a 5 shot group is no good and that people that tell you of a three shot group cherry picked it, your words!
 
RC20 said:
Having been in the game a while, I can tell you that those so called MOA rifles are a bunch of bull.

They still are 1.5 inch rifles.


It takes some good load development to get them under 1 inch.

That's one reason the Savage Cabela 12FV is such a bargain.

It has a heavy barrel and that gets you 1 inch, 1/2 or so with reloads.

Dicks also has a budge heavy barrel rifle.

Those pencil barrel standards are lucky to get 1.5 inch with 3 shot group.

I have one, throws the first one about 1.5 inches to the left of the next two.

Its off the rifle, I will play with it as a guy claims he can get one to shoot sub MOA 5 shots with the right loads.

Most people shoot factory. A lot of those do not have match grade ammo.

308 has a lot, 6.5 has a lot, 270? 243?
Click to expand...

I think I agree with this except for one thing. Usually handloading can made a big difference but if the bedding isn't right, no amount of handloading can fix that. How the expensive factory ammo shoot's, I got no idea, never used any. But does seem to be a lot of people that like it. I think most people that get that ammo to shoot in their factory rifles are happy with less than 1" accuracy, maybe 1 1/2" is good for them, they might get it and for the majority of hunter's, 1 1/2" is fine. Depending on where you hunt, 2" might even work. Already sorry I said that! :eek:
 
Mr. Fischer,
Please re-read my post, as I believe you are misrepresenting what I stated.

I said nothing about what constitutes "accurate enough", in fact I unwaveringly have stated over many years and thousands of posts that everyone's needs are different.

Nor did I say that " people that tell you of a three shot group cherry-picked it". What I DID state is that a cherry-picked group (and I don't care it's 3, 5, or 10 shot) is not representative of a rifle's true performance, and it's clearly not. A rifle's true performance is what it shoots consistently, with premium factory ammo at minimum.

The OP is looking for a RANGE rifle (benchrest, specifically) sub-moa, per her first post.

Anyone, that knows anything about barrels, knows that long strings consistent with the requirements of target shooting requires a heavy contour barrel. A lightweight, sporter contour simply does not have the mass to absorb the heat without long waits between relatively few shots to avoid overheating.

Most, if not all, of the rifles in her original post are HUNTING rifles, not range/target rifles.

Apples and Oranges, sir. PDog/varmint hunters know this and compromise with a mid-weight barrel (hence the name "varmint contour").

There are completely different standards for evaluating suitability of rifles for range/target use as compared to hunting. Hunters care about cold bore, and one or two follow-ups (hence the three-shot group). A target shooter is going to be woefully disappointed if they buy a lightweight contour barrel only to find that it can't hold up to the high round count they were after.

Forewarned is forearmed. Customers of mine that put eight pound barrels on their rifles aren't expecting to tote them into the mountains, nor are those with a lightweight contour expecting to use them for target shooting. Can they take it to the range, sling some impressive shooting (even at long-range), and call it a day? Absolutely. But if they expect to shoot long strings accurately (a range rifle), then they need to be aware of the limitations/compromise of such a rifle in an application for which it was not designed.
 
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tobnpr said:
A sub-moa rifle is one that will shoot to that level, consistently.
Five shot groups minimum, all the time. Not "sometimes", not a cherry-picked three shot group out of several.

No doubt manufacturers are turning out more accurate rifles, most of which will be accurate "enough" for most people. Problem I see nowadays, is that when someone gets one that shoots 1-1/2"-2" with factory ammo they feel they got a lemon...

Don't buy an entry level factory rifle expecting custom rifle accuracy- you may be lucky and get it, maybe not...
Click to expand...

OK, here's the post. Five shot group's all the time. Not sometime's, not a cherry picked three shot group.

I think that the average person couldn't shoot a 1" group by other than an accident! Actually in my experience, people with a 1 1/2" rifle are thrilled!

Don't buy an entry level factory rifle expecting custom rifle accuracy- you may be lucky and get it, maybe not... Some how on here we went from entry level and skipped over everything else till we got to custom! Not saying I disagree with that but I think most rifle's, custom and otherwise in the hands of the average shooter, he will not be distressed with a rifle that only does 1 1/2" and would like it even if it was a custom rifle.

Mostly what I think we were talking about here were not competition shooter's but the average guy. I think that you would agree that a very accurate rifle in less than competent hands will shoot no better than an ordinary run of the mill rifle. I'm quite certain my rifle's these days shoot better than I do, probably always have. I'm also certain that most factory rifles can be made to shoot better with nothing more than tweeked bedding.

I think we have both heard/read where a good trigger can make you a better shot, I'd think we'd both disagree with that. It you can't control a trigger you can have the best trigger in the world and it won't make much difference.

The entry level rifle's today seem amazing to me and for the most part probably shoot better than any of us. Think about the match rifle, super small group's depending on who's touching off the shot. In every rifle, entry level or custom, the human error will surface.

I think suggesting that factories are turning out rifle's most of which will be accurate enough.........! Well does a guy hunting deer need a .250" rifle? No, doesn't generally even need a 1" rifle! many people even like yourself will never know what the entry level rifle's can do because you won't try them in the first place. For the average guy and his hunting rifle, the entry level rifle's are more than good enough.

I've got an entry level 700 ADL that was a gift. One of the absolutely worst shooting rifles I ever saw. lot of bedding work later I was shooting very well. Then that plastic stock changed out for a wood stock and bedded for that barrel action and it's a very accurate rifle. Will the best computation rifle shoot say .250" groups every time? I doubt that, the human error will get it.If it wasn't for human error we may well have already seen the rifle that can put all it's shot's in the same hole. And the average guy? Give him the same rifle and he still shoot's 1 1/2" groups!
 
Phew I agree with the last part.

I do think there is so much buzz about MOA these days shooters expect it.

I also do not say the pencil barrels are in general a problem, just I have been less than impressed and barrels have gotten lighter since my Ruger of the early 80s.

What I like about the Ruger was it shot dead center on the first shot and the other two orbited around it.

The Savage pencil in 270 had a single by itself and the other two were close together.

Could you live with that, yes, like it, no.

For hunting all I ever did was shoot 3 shot groups. I didn't expect any more out of the gun but it game me an honest 3 shot group. Not one shot in one place and two 1.5 inches out by themselves.
 
Three shot groups work well enough for sighting in, but are pretty meaningless for load-evaluation. For that matter, MOA-5-shot groups at 100 yards are absolutely meaningless in a rifle that is expected to perform well at 300 yard and beyond. That MOA 100 yard group may well be over 16" at 300 yards. Don't assume anything about it; you can't know until you try it. On the other hand, if you have great load for 300+ yards, you shouldn't fret if it looks less accurate than some other loads at 100 yards. I think 100 yards is a great distance to evaluate iron-sighted lever-action rifles and their ammo. But it's meaningless for a scoped, bolt-action rifle.
 
From what I've heard, go for the Mossberg Patriot....I have one 5.56 I have yet to shoot but everyone I know with the Patriot raves about their accuracy...

Jerry
 
Interesting discussion and certainly one that raises some questions.

Just to clarify, yes I am looking for a range/target rifle. That I could hunt with it would be a bonus but hardly a requirement and I looked at the 243 because of the combination of low(er) recoil and the overall ballistics of the 6mm family of cartridges.

I admit when I see people say they shot a 3-shot group that was .0000000181 inches at 100 yards.....ALL DAY, i sort of am dismissive. Statistics teaches us that sample size matters immensely in the confidence we have in any given study or set of results. And having a single 3-shot group as the benchmark accuracy for a target rifle strikes me as a rather low confidence metric which is another way of saying cherry picking. We have to have enough of a sample size to grasp the variability and deviation for the performance of the rifle.

Imagine you put the rifle on a mechanical rest and shot it 10 times (assuming sufficient barrel cooling, etc), you'd have a 'group'. Try it 200 times and the variation of that group is going to really consolidate around a particular number. Except I doubt anyone wants to spend the money to buy or load 200 rounds just to establish that so we use samples that are representative and to me a 3-shot one alone doesn't do a good job of it.

And if I follow this to its logical conclusion that's probably why a company like T/C can "guarantee" that the compass/venture line of budget rifles will shoot MOA for a 3-shot group. With enough ammo especially handloads and from a rest it is likely you can get a 1-1/2" MOA gun to occasionally shoot 1 MOA or less. Guarantee met...

As for minute-of-deer accuracy, I don't think 1 MOA is needed for where I'd nominally be hunting if I were to use this rifle for that purpose given I'm in the East coast. If I were back out west then I'd weigh my rifle's proven accuracy, be it 1, 1/2", or 2 MOA, against the vital zone of deer/elk/etc and establish a max range based on that.

re: Mossberg Patriot. thanks for the suggestion. I saw one sans optics for < $300 which is quite a deal and the reviews on accuracy are generally very good, plus they make an affordable wood (or maybe laminate?) stock version which is nice. I'm hesistant to go with them due to what i've read about some QC issues they have had. With one rifle already sitting in Savage's warehouse/gunsmith for a month now, I'm wary of getting another lemon. Probably impossible at this budget price point to not gamble on getting some problems, be it with the Remington 783, the Savage rifles, and the T/C which had recalls just this past year.
 
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^^^
What was the issue with the Savage?

Your statements regarding group sizes and "guarantees" is spot on and shows you have an excellent grasp of the arguments IMO.

My advice is to look for a "compromise" contour that fits the target vs. hunting percentage of use.

Nothing at all wrong with the .243, but consider there may be other choices that will suit your intended target use and provide longer throat/barrel life such as it's .308 parent case.

Good luck.
 
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