Buckshot for Bear Defense
- Thread starter QuadOughtBuck
- Start date
I appreciate your experience and the fact that you know a lot more about bears and Alaska than I do. And I mean this sincerely...
But, what a load of crap...
You are telling me that I as a plain ole ordinary, non bear expert, human being do not have the right to shoot a bear that threatens me. And I am supposed to know the difference between whether or not the bear is serious or just kidding.
Law enforcement officers are taught the 21 foot rule. It says basically that if a human being is 21 feet away from you and holding a knife and charges you and your gun is holstered, you will at the very least get cut if not killed before you can get your gun out and stop the threat.
Now back to bears...
A bear is faster than a human being. A bear has multiple knives on each paw and some more in his mouth. (we call them claws and teeth)
If a human with a knife threatens a human with a gun at 21 feet, the human with the gun is fully justified in shooting the subject dead in his tracks.
Now what makes the bear any different?
Who is at the top of the food chain anyway.
To hell with the bear's and all of the animal rights nut's touchy feely feelings, I am going home alive from my fishing or camping trip.
Disclaimer...I love bears and think they are one of God's most awesome creatures. I have great respect for them and would not hunt one because of this respect. But if it is me or the bear...I am going home, and the bear is going to be a rug. And I don't have time to have a shrink flown in to the wilderness to analyze the bear's intentions.
Keith Rogan
New member
>>>>>You are telling me that I as a plain ole ordinary, non bear expert, human being do not have the right to shoot a bear that threatens me. And I am supposed to know the difference between whether or not the bear is serious or just kidding.<<<<<
Yes, you are supposed to know the difference. Bears that attack don't make any display, they just attack. You'll know.
>>>>>If a human with a knife threatens a human with a gun at 21 feet, the human with the gun is fully justified in shooting the subject dead in his tracks. Now what makes the bear any different?<<<<<
Nothing, any bear within 21 feet and acting aggressively is clearly a danger, so shoot. The threat displays I'm describing are generally taking place 25 to 100 yards away. If you come to Kodiak some summer and float the Karluk river to catch kings, you'll no doubt see these displays. Typically, a bear might show up on the opposite side of the river and try and scare you away from a prime fishing spot. It would be a shame to spend several thousand dollars for the fishing trip of your life and end it on the first day because you shoot a bear who is just trying to take over a fishing hole. It would be more of a shame to wound some bear and set up a stranger for a fatal actual mauling because you don't familiarize yourself with the local conditions.
Yes, you are supposed to know the difference. Bears that attack don't make any display, they just attack. You'll know.
>>>>>If a human with a knife threatens a human with a gun at 21 feet, the human with the gun is fully justified in shooting the subject dead in his tracks. Now what makes the bear any different?<<<<<
Nothing, any bear within 21 feet and acting aggressively is clearly a danger, so shoot. The threat displays I'm describing are generally taking place 25 to 100 yards away. If you come to Kodiak some summer and float the Karluk river to catch kings, you'll no doubt see these displays. Typically, a bear might show up on the opposite side of the river and try and scare you away from a prime fishing spot. It would be a shame to spend several thousand dollars for the fishing trip of your life and end it on the first day because you shoot a bear who is just trying to take over a fishing hole. It would be more of a shame to wound some bear and set up a stranger for a fatal actual mauling because you don't familiarize yourself with the local conditions.
Now Keith, you know as well as I do, most bears during the salmon season could care less about fisherman. Thank goodness they have something better on there minds
As to attacks or attacking bears. If you feel threatened shoot it. Lets be reasonable though. If you see a brownie 50yards from you while your fishing and you shoot it. Your gonna spend some time in court.
Now you surprise a bear at 20yards while hiking, you better be ready. Most of the times its gonna run but...... I'm pretty sure if you shoot a bear at 20yards fins and feathers is gonna be interrogating the hell out of you.
You have to have your reasonable comfort zone and if the bear comes into it you have to be ready. Although if you see the bear advancing, thats half the battle. I have my zone and I will always have my co-pilot or 458Lott to defend it.
As to attacks or attacking bears. If you feel threatened shoot it. Lets be reasonable though. If you see a brownie 50yards from you while your fishing and you shoot it. Your gonna spend some time in court.
Now you surprise a bear at 20yards while hiking, you better be ready. Most of the times its gonna run but...... I'm pretty sure if you shoot a bear at 20yards fins and feathers is gonna be interrogating the hell out of you.
You have to have your reasonable comfort zone and if the bear comes into it you have to be ready. Although if you see the bear advancing, thats half the battle. I have my zone and I will always have my co-pilot or 458Lott to defend it.
QuadOughtBuck
Moderator
H&H,hunter, check your PM.
You fellas familiar with the phrase "shoot, shovel, shut-up?"
I don't mean this literally, I wouldn't really bury it. But keep your darn mouth shut. If you are out in the middle of nowhere who in the heck is gonna know about it anyways, until I am long gone?
If they do find out about it, and the bear might possibly have been in the "go-to-court" range, then it was at least 15 yards closer, foaming at the mouth, with red eyes, etc.
I would not go out and kill anything that I was not intending to unless I absolutely had to. My definition and somebody else's definition of "threat" and "attack" might be different. But I'm not gonna let linguistics cost me or a family member my life.
Stinger
QuadOughtBuck
Moderator
Amen to that, brother.
Keith Rogan
New member
>>>>>You fellas familiar with the phrase "shoot, shovel, shut-up?"<<<<<<
Yeah, except we are talking about a bear that may weigh 1500 pounds. The odds are that you won't kill it, you'll just wound it and set up some poor fools death a week later who happens on to this angry wounded bear.
Or just as bad, turn an otherwise interesting wildlife experience into your own mauling.
You have no idea how hard it is to kill an adrenalized grizzly. Just a few weeks ago, a guy shot an inland grizzly sow twice with a .458 (one a solid chest shot), and came back the following day only to be bushwhacked by the bear. It was shot three more times with a .375 before it ceased hostilities and died. This was a small inland grizzly that probably didn't go over 400 pounds. A coastal bear might weigh three or four times that and take even more punishment.
The sow that got me on Kodiak took two hits from a .300 mag, one a good frontal chest shot. It attacked another party a week later who only escaped because they were on a beach next to a skiff. The following year it killed a guy on the same spot I was mauled - this guy shot it twice more (they think) before it got him. These latter two attacks might never have happened if the bear hadn't been wounded.
Now, I don't feel guilty because we wounded that bear, it was an actual mauling after all. But, if we'd crippled up that bear under doubtful circumstances we'd be responsible for that mans death.
Please understand, I'm not suggesting you should risk your life to give a bear the benefit of a doubt. I'm just saying that like in all things, you have to apply common sense. In some areas of SW Alaska (for example) you will run into grizzlies every single day. You can not come in like a cowboy and start popping away at every bear that growls at you. You'll just create a terribly dangerous situation for yourself, and for everyone else who enters that area for a long time to come.
Yeah, except we are talking about a bear that may weigh 1500 pounds. The odds are that you won't kill it, you'll just wound it and set up some poor fools death a week later who happens on to this angry wounded bear.
Or just as bad, turn an otherwise interesting wildlife experience into your own mauling.
You have no idea how hard it is to kill an adrenalized grizzly. Just a few weeks ago, a guy shot an inland grizzly sow twice with a .458 (one a solid chest shot), and came back the following day only to be bushwhacked by the bear. It was shot three more times with a .375 before it ceased hostilities and died. This was a small inland grizzly that probably didn't go over 400 pounds. A coastal bear might weigh three or four times that and take even more punishment.
The sow that got me on Kodiak took two hits from a .300 mag, one a good frontal chest shot. It attacked another party a week later who only escaped because they were on a beach next to a skiff. The following year it killed a guy on the same spot I was mauled - this guy shot it twice more (they think) before it got him. These latter two attacks might never have happened if the bear hadn't been wounded.
Now, I don't feel guilty because we wounded that bear, it was an actual mauling after all. But, if we'd crippled up that bear under doubtful circumstances we'd be responsible for that mans death.
Please understand, I'm not suggesting you should risk your life to give a bear the benefit of a doubt. I'm just saying that like in all things, you have to apply common sense. In some areas of SW Alaska (for example) you will run into grizzlies every single day. You can not come in like a cowboy and start popping away at every bear that growls at you. You'll just create a terribly dangerous situation for yourself, and for everyone else who enters that area for a long time to come.
Keith Rogan
New member
Lilbiggun,
We live with this all summer and fall out here. Tourists (and sometimes locals too...) shoot bears that "threaten them" and they almost never kill them outright. The worst areas for this are along the Karluk and Ayakukulik rivers where you've got these crippled up, starving bears raiding camps and coming into the villages to break into smoke houses. It's a dangerous mess some summers and it doesn't have to happen.
Then in the fall you get bears coming in to challenge hunters for deer kills and instead of just giving up the deer, they panick and shoot and create a danger for everyone else in the area. It's freaking nuts!
Keerist!! I've lost several deer to bears. I don't even cut my tags any more until I get the meat back to the beach or camp, I figure if a bear takes a deer, then that deer still belongs to the state.
If a bear wants your deer, fishing hole or fish, just let him have it.
We live with this all summer and fall out here. Tourists (and sometimes locals too...) shoot bears that "threaten them" and they almost never kill them outright. The worst areas for this are along the Karluk and Ayakukulik rivers where you've got these crippled up, starving bears raiding camps and coming into the villages to break into smoke houses. It's a dangerous mess some summers and it doesn't have to happen.
Then in the fall you get bears coming in to challenge hunters for deer kills and instead of just giving up the deer, they panick and shoot and create a danger for everyone else in the area. It's freaking nuts!
Keerist!! I've lost several deer to bears. I don't even cut my tags any more until I get the meat back to the beach or camp, I figure if a bear takes a deer, then that deer still belongs to the state.
If a bear wants your deer, fishing hole or fish, just let him have it.
Keith, I respect your opinions and experiences. I even understand what you are saying. What I am about to say is half truth/half joke, so take it with a grain of salt.
But HUMANS are at the top of the food chain, not bears. They got their for a reason. Those who are at the top of the food chain did not get there by backing down from those who tried to take their position.
There are times that it is good to fight, and there are times that you just have to tuck your tail in between your legs and skidaddle. As the ultimate predator, it is up to you to decide when.
BTW, what would be the state's response to standing up for your kill/fish/location?
Stinger
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
stinger, you're factually correct about the "top of the food chain". I fully agree.
However, not "letting" a bear "steal" your fishing spot or your trophy buck is right close to the ultimate bit of macho, seems to me. It's saying that somehow your self-esteem, your self-respect, would be dramatically reduced by just moving away and avoiding a hassle.
My personal opinion of that attitude is that it's pretty immature. I'd hate to think my sense of self-worth depended on killing a stoopid bear.
I just don't see it as backing down, as tucking my tail away in some sort of cowardice. To me, it's just avoiding an unnecessary hassle.
I mean, "Hey! You one-ton boulder, rolling down the mountain! You ain't gonna make ME move out of your way!" Duh?
A bear is just a boulder with options...
, Art
However, not "letting" a bear "steal" your fishing spot or your trophy buck is right close to the ultimate bit of macho, seems to me. It's saying that somehow your self-esteem, your self-respect, would be dramatically reduced by just moving away and avoiding a hassle.
My personal opinion of that attitude is that it's pretty immature. I'd hate to think my sense of self-worth depended on killing a stoopid bear.
I just don't see it as backing down, as tucking my tail away in some sort of cowardice. To me, it's just avoiding an unnecessary hassle.
I mean, "Hey! You one-ton boulder, rolling down the mountain! You ain't gonna make ME move out of your way!" Duh?
A bear is just a boulder with options...
, ArtKeith Rogan
New member
The states response to shooting a bear in defense of a fishing hole or deer kill is to throw you in the slammer for up to a year and fine you up to 100,000 dollars for hunting brown bears out of season and without a tag.
You can shoot a bear in defense of life and "property" - property being defined as your home (a bear is coming through your window), not a cooler full of beer or steaks.
If you want to hunt brown bears, buy a license and hire a good guide.
You can shoot a bear in defense of life and "property" - property being defined as your home (a bear is coming through your window), not a cooler full of beer or steaks.
If you want to hunt brown bears, buy a license and hire a good guide.
Depends....
I can lose ONE Salmon to a bear, But after #2?
Sorry I am not A Democratic Senator from a VERY Corrupt North Eastern US or Canadien state or Provence!
Sometimes Bears must die.
Even if PETA doesn't mean People Eating Tasty Animals.
Top Predators MUST ASSERT themselves!
Zorro! Shows his Teeth in Threat DISPLAY!
... And a 12 Gauge Shotgun Stuffed Full of Premium Slugs!
I can lose ONE Salmon to a bear, But after #2?
Sorry I am not A Democratic Senator from a VERY Corrupt North Eastern US or Canadien state or Provence!
Sometimes Bears must die.
Even if PETA doesn't mean People Eating Tasty Animals.
Top Predators MUST ASSERT themselves!
Zorro! Shows his Teeth in Threat DISPLAY!
... And a 12 Gauge Shotgun Stuffed Full of Premium Slugs!
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
stinger, I've always said I've pushed adolescence beyond all previous limits, so not to worry.
Zorro, we're gonna take up a collection and send you to bear-charm school.
After the State of Alaska lets you out.
Keith, take a Valium.
, Art
Zorro, we're gonna take up a collection and send you to bear-charm school.
After the State of Alaska lets you out.
Keith, take a Valium.
, Art
I've had a small arctic grizz run me off of caribou kill, My Attitude is save the paper work go get another bou.
I agree with keith never mark the tag untill you've got the meat somewhere safe and sound. Also guys the bear that gets you is the one that you never hear untill it's on top of you. The one that sits over there hollering and grunting and slapping the ground is just a big talker. He's talking the talk but not walking the walk.
I've never spent much time in SW or SE Ak (where the big bears are) most of my time was ans is spent in northen AK where the grizz only get up to aboput 8' and 600lbs or so. But I've got to tell you untill you get the behavior figured out it is intimidating to be the audience at a threat display matinee.
Like anything else you get to know the ropes after awhile. And that's all Keith is saying probably best not to go into bear country by yourself the first couple of times. Go with somebody who knows WTF he's doing.
With that being said guys keep inmind your not likley to get into a an honest to god life or death situation with a bear!!! You will not be attacked every 15 minutes from the time you get off the airplane untill the time you leave AK. I garuntieee.
I agree with keith never mark the tag untill you've got the meat somewhere safe and sound. Also guys the bear that gets you is the one that you never hear untill it's on top of you. The one that sits over there hollering and grunting and slapping the ground is just a big talker. He's talking the talk but not walking the walk.
I've never spent much time in SW or SE Ak (where the big bears are) most of my time was ans is spent in northen AK where the grizz only get up to aboput 8' and 600lbs or so. But I've got to tell you untill you get the behavior figured out it is intimidating to be the audience at a threat display matinee.
Like anything else you get to know the ropes after awhile. And that's all Keith is saying probably best not to go into bear country by yourself the first couple of times. Go with somebody who knows WTF he's doing.
With that being said guys keep inmind your not likley to get into a an honest to god life or death situation with a bear!!! You will not be attacked every 15 minutes from the time you get off the airplane untill the time you leave AK. I garuntieee.
QuadOughtBuck
Moderator
When all the shot is in a close group it is akin to a large fragnible slug. You know how the poor farmers used to turn their birdshot loads into poor mans slugs by cutting around the base of the shell so all the little tiny pellets would impact as one? When all the pellets are together then the energy is not the individual ammount per pellet, less anyone here beleives that 2 ft/lb birdshot pellets can bring down a deer. Yet when the birdshot is in one mass it does.
Also there is a saying that within 3-5 yards all loads of shot or slug are bassiclly the same.
"When Earnest Hemingway was about to go after a leopard into the cat's grass bed his assistant realized that he had forgotten the buckshot loads. All that was left was some #8 birdshot. Hemingway said, "At the distance I'll be shooting it doesn't matter what load I'm using". He killed the leopard in one shot."
Here are some accounts of actual bear/buckshot encounters.
"I went Bear hunting in Michigan this year after waiting seven years to get a tag. This is my first bear hunt and it was a full moon, so like deer the bears were moving late. I opted to take my 3 1/2 inch mossberg and use buckshot. The bear came in fifteen yards and never moved another inch. All eighteen pellets hit the bear. A nice humane kill. That Mossberg is one bad gun within 50 yards.
mich buckmaster
Quad, thanks for the reassurance of using the buckshot. I have used buckshot for deer and coyotes. I only use it in areas where my shot will be within 70 yards. I would put a 3 1/2inch buckshot against any gun. I once shot at a doe and dropped two deer with one single shot. I use a turkey choke and can put 12 pellets in a paper plate at 50 yards. I would say that is very deadly. The bear I shot, all eighteen pellets went right through the bear makin a hole about the size of a galf ball. A couple pellets went and hit the other shoulder, destroying it. A good, clean, humane kill. Thats what we all strive for."
“Quad-
Here are the examples I know of.
1) Several years back, a farmer I knew had a problem black bear, so he took to keeping his shotgun handy. The bear appeared close by,, he grabbed his gun, and shot it once with 2 3/4" OO. The bear dropped dead at the shot. Two pellets had hit in the head and pierced the skull.
2)A fellow I know also had a problem bear coming to his property. He shot it in the chest and shoulder, it was slightly quartering towards him. That bear took off running, and was shot again, in the side of the ribs. That slowed him up but didn't kill him. A final shot brought him down, and killed him. OO buckshot.
3) A good friend was working at a logging camp, and they had a problem bear. One day they surprised the bear, which ran up a tree. He shot it with a OO 2 3/4 shell. This dropped the bear to the ground, where it began thrashing about and trying to get up. A follow up shot at close range to the head killed it.
4)A fellow I met had worked as a guide in northern BC. They were heading through the bush when they surprised a grizzly on a carcass. The bear charged, and was shot once in the shoulder. This didn't even faze him. A second shot to the head put the bear down. 3" Copperplated 00.
I only witnessed the first one, but have no reason to doubt the other stories. The RCMP aropund here have taken to carrying slugs to deal with bears when the CO's can't attend, and I heard it was because the 00 wasn't doing too well. That is hearsay, of course.
When i carry a shotgun for protecton, they would come out the barrel as slug, OOO, slug slug slug. I throw the buck in there to give me a higher hit chance. Right or wrong, it's what I do.”
"The outfitter himself carried a 12 gauge loaded with OO Buckshot. Turns out he had killed a charging grizzly with it a few years earlier. It was a medium-sized sow which charged him while he was field-dressing an elk. He hit it in the shoulder the first shot, doing great damage and knocking it down, but it got up and charged again. He shot it in the head at close range, killing it. Ruled justifiable self-defense by the powers that be.
OO buck wouldn't be my choice for bear defense, but this guy had results you just couldn't argue with.
Good Shooting, CoyDog"
And just an interesting note on what is capable with slugs.
"A few thoughts on slug effectiveness which some of you may not have heard about. I know that the common Foster-type slugs, as used in many American states, do just fine on whitetail deer, and even on black bear (although they're made to expand, so may not penetrate deep enough to reach the vitals on a heavier animal). Brenneke's do rather better on penetration, as they are specifically designed NOT to expand, on the principle that a 7½-inch-wide hole in an animal should be enough for the job! I understand that several grizzlies have been taken in Alaska at close range with Brenneke's, but that at 35-40 yards and further out, the velocity loss is such as to limit penetration, even with these hard boys.
I know that in Africa, several Cape buffalo have been taken with both Brenneke and Foster slugs. They were shot from broadside, and the Brenneke's proved capable of shooting right through them if no major bone structures were hit. When shoulder or rib bones were hit, the Brenneke's turned them into bone shrapnel, and stopped under the hide on the far side. The Foster slugs generally didn't perform well if bone was hit, but would do adequate damage to heart and lungs. The range on all of these shots, as far as I'm aware, was less than 30 yards, in heavy bush. (On all occasions, a hunter with a heavy rifle was standing by to back up the slug hunter if necessary - on at least 3 occasions, it was VERY necessary, as the buffs didn't seem to think that a shotgun slug in the ribcage was a sporting proposition!)
I don't think anyone's taken rhino or elephant with slugs. I daresay it might be technically possible to reach the heart or lungs with a clear side shot, and no intervening bone, but I think the animals' reactions to a muffed shot might be rather hairy for the close-range shotgun hunter - and I don't think a slug would turn a charge from the big beasties!"
"We have an excellent field report on the results of the Brenneke 12-gauge slug on a buffalo at 9 yards. It achieved full penetration, destroyed the heart (rendering it inedible), and lodged under the skin at the far side. It did not drop the beast in its tracks, but it killed him in a few yards. We have always preached that the 12-gauge Brenneke slug is a very efficient defensive projectile for heavy animals - providing that you use it at short range. Its ballistic shape is poor, cutting its effectiveness down radically as range increases. If you get involved with a dangerous animal, remember he cannot hurt you if he cannot touch you. If you use your weaponry properly, at 20-yards and under, you should make out very well."
Now who thinks the shotgun is bad?
Also there is a saying that within 3-5 yards all loads of shot or slug are bassiclly the same.
"When Earnest Hemingway was about to go after a leopard into the cat's grass bed his assistant realized that he had forgotten the buckshot loads. All that was left was some #8 birdshot. Hemingway said, "At the distance I'll be shooting it doesn't matter what load I'm using". He killed the leopard in one shot."
Here are some accounts of actual bear/buckshot encounters.
"I went Bear hunting in Michigan this year after waiting seven years to get a tag. This is my first bear hunt and it was a full moon, so like deer the bears were moving late. I opted to take my 3 1/2 inch mossberg and use buckshot. The bear came in fifteen yards and never moved another inch. All eighteen pellets hit the bear. A nice humane kill. That Mossberg is one bad gun within 50 yards.
mich buckmaster
Quad, thanks for the reassurance of using the buckshot. I have used buckshot for deer and coyotes. I only use it in areas where my shot will be within 70 yards. I would put a 3 1/2inch buckshot against any gun. I once shot at a doe and dropped two deer with one single shot. I use a turkey choke and can put 12 pellets in a paper plate at 50 yards. I would say that is very deadly. The bear I shot, all eighteen pellets went right through the bear makin a hole about the size of a galf ball. A couple pellets went and hit the other shoulder, destroying it. A good, clean, humane kill. Thats what we all strive for."
“Quad-
Here are the examples I know of.
1) Several years back, a farmer I knew had a problem black bear, so he took to keeping his shotgun handy. The bear appeared close by,, he grabbed his gun, and shot it once with 2 3/4" OO. The bear dropped dead at the shot. Two pellets had hit in the head and pierced the skull.
2)A fellow I know also had a problem bear coming to his property. He shot it in the chest and shoulder, it was slightly quartering towards him. That bear took off running, and was shot again, in the side of the ribs. That slowed him up but didn't kill him. A final shot brought him down, and killed him. OO buckshot.
3) A good friend was working at a logging camp, and they had a problem bear. One day they surprised the bear, which ran up a tree. He shot it with a OO 2 3/4 shell. This dropped the bear to the ground, where it began thrashing about and trying to get up. A follow up shot at close range to the head killed it.
4)A fellow I met had worked as a guide in northern BC. They were heading through the bush when they surprised a grizzly on a carcass. The bear charged, and was shot once in the shoulder. This didn't even faze him. A second shot to the head put the bear down. 3" Copperplated 00.
I only witnessed the first one, but have no reason to doubt the other stories. The RCMP aropund here have taken to carrying slugs to deal with bears when the CO's can't attend, and I heard it was because the 00 wasn't doing too well. That is hearsay, of course.
When i carry a shotgun for protecton, they would come out the barrel as slug, OOO, slug slug slug. I throw the buck in there to give me a higher hit chance. Right or wrong, it's what I do.”
"The outfitter himself carried a 12 gauge loaded with OO Buckshot. Turns out he had killed a charging grizzly with it a few years earlier. It was a medium-sized sow which charged him while he was field-dressing an elk. He hit it in the shoulder the first shot, doing great damage and knocking it down, but it got up and charged again. He shot it in the head at close range, killing it. Ruled justifiable self-defense by the powers that be.
OO buck wouldn't be my choice for bear defense, but this guy had results you just couldn't argue with.
Good Shooting, CoyDog"
And just an interesting note on what is capable with slugs.
"A few thoughts on slug effectiveness which some of you may not have heard about. I know that the common Foster-type slugs, as used in many American states, do just fine on whitetail deer, and even on black bear (although they're made to expand, so may not penetrate deep enough to reach the vitals on a heavier animal). Brenneke's do rather better on penetration, as they are specifically designed NOT to expand, on the principle that a 7½-inch-wide hole in an animal should be enough for the job! I understand that several grizzlies have been taken in Alaska at close range with Brenneke's, but that at 35-40 yards and further out, the velocity loss is such as to limit penetration, even with these hard boys.
I know that in Africa, several Cape buffalo have been taken with both Brenneke and Foster slugs. They were shot from broadside, and the Brenneke's proved capable of shooting right through them if no major bone structures were hit. When shoulder or rib bones were hit, the Brenneke's turned them into bone shrapnel, and stopped under the hide on the far side. The Foster slugs generally didn't perform well if bone was hit, but would do adequate damage to heart and lungs. The range on all of these shots, as far as I'm aware, was less than 30 yards, in heavy bush. (On all occasions, a hunter with a heavy rifle was standing by to back up the slug hunter if necessary - on at least 3 occasions, it was VERY necessary, as the buffs didn't seem to think that a shotgun slug in the ribcage was a sporting proposition!)
I don't think anyone's taken rhino or elephant with slugs. I daresay it might be technically possible to reach the heart or lungs with a clear side shot, and no intervening bone, but I think the animals' reactions to a muffed shot might be rather hairy for the close-range shotgun hunter - and I don't think a slug would turn a charge from the big beasties!"
"We have an excellent field report on the results of the Brenneke 12-gauge slug on a buffalo at 9 yards. It achieved full penetration, destroyed the heart (rendering it inedible), and lodged under the skin at the far side. It did not drop the beast in its tracks, but it killed him in a few yards. We have always preached that the 12-gauge Brenneke slug is a very efficient defensive projectile for heavy animals - providing that you use it at short range. Its ballistic shape is poor, cutting its effectiveness down radically as range increases. If you get involved with a dangerous animal, remember he cannot hurt you if he cannot touch you. If you use your weaponry properly, at 20-yards and under, you should make out very well."
Now who thinks the shotgun is bad?
The shotgun isnt bad but it's not what I would use and nobody on this earth is gonna make me change my mind. Carry what you want, it's your life. Someday I hope you make it to bear country (brown/griz) and see for yourself. Hopefully you will never have to test it in real life.
Last edited by a moderator:
Mike Weber
New member
I have several friends from Alaska. They all tell me that what they carried for bear defense were 12 gauges loaded with slugs. This did come as a surprise to me as I expected to hear that they were using some sort of super duper Earschplittin loudenboomer rifle. The 12 gauge with slugs was what all of them carried. When I asked about handguns they all said that a handgun was just about the last firearm on their list for bear defense even the .454 Casull. They all preffered the 12 gauge with slugs.