Buck shot myths and facts collection
- Thread starter Gator Weiss
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Mike Irwin
Staff
Flechette loads look good, but in practice they stink.
The US experimented with them in Vietnam, where it was thought that they would do a better job of penetrating jungle foliage.
In practice it was found that they didn't do all that great a job of penetrating brush, they had extremely limited range given the light weight nature of the individual flechettes, and they had very poor wounding capacity.
Users clamored for their traditional buckshot loads to be reissued, and the flechettes were withdrawn from service as a failure.
The US experimented with them in Vietnam, where it was thought that they would do a better job of penetrating jungle foliage.
In practice it was found that they didn't do all that great a job of penetrating brush, they had extremely limited range given the light weight nature of the individual flechettes, and they had very poor wounding capacity.
Users clamored for their traditional buckshot loads to be reissued, and the flechettes were withdrawn from service as a failure.
Hmmmm, I would think there would be a difference in "breaching" the walls of grass hooches in Vietnam compared to the steel core or heavy wood doors we have in this country.
Want a real test, go to the junk or scrap yard, find an old door matching your doors and shoot them.
Set them out at what ever distance you plan on shooting and shoot it with your buck shot, slugs, and pistol/revolver ammo.
Take you shot gun and shoot at a B27 or similar target at, 25 yards or what ever range you plan on shooting and see if you can keep all your pellets on target, same with your slugs and pistol/revolver rounds.
If nothing else, you're gonna have fun playing with different rounds at different targets seeing what they do.
I do that, (playing) but like I said, I don't use shotguns for SD, but I do shoot them (slugs, buckshot, and bird shot) in three gun. I load then so as they pattern (all pellets hit the target) at what ever range the match calls for.
What I did find is buckshot patterns better if not pushed too hard, same with slugs (more accurate) and modest velocities out of my smooth bore 18 inch 870 barrel. Regardless how hard they hit, buck shot pellets are useless if the spread prevents them from hitting the targets.
To give you an example, my slugs, If I push them at 15 - 1600 fps I hit my 8 inch popper target about 20% of the time at 50 yards. If I cut the velocity to about 1200 fps, I can hit it 80% of the time.
My homemade buckshot loads also pattern better at slower velocities.
We'll never know what our loads in our guns do via the Internet, we have to go out and test them in the same conditions we plan on shooting them.
I bet when all is said and done, If you do some honest testing on your own, you'll go back to your handguns for SD.
Yes the Flechette rounds... I was posting at work on my phone and my fat finger tips were doing a poor job of tapping out the letters compared to the "swipe" style method which had never heard that word before...
Considering, previously, I stated I use #3 buck as my HD load in 20 gauge guns, I didn't think anyone would think I was claiming the #4 to be a novelty round
And didn't notice that a post got in while I struggled to try to type that 'ette word
My break was ending and I had to get back in to work... Sorry to confuse...Brent
Nanuk wrote:
This is specifically why I use them for "inside the home" self defense. Reduced recoil loads maintain more than enough power and flight control characteristics at typical residential room/indoor distances. Reduced recoil loads are also far less punishing on the shooter and, as a result, facilitate distinctly faster "resetting" times for follow up shots than full-power loads. I have tested shot time difference between reduced recoil and full-power loads and shot count on target at various distances on myself as well as my wife. I am very confident using reduced recoil loads for home and self defense.
This is specifically why I use them for "inside the home" self defense. Reduced recoil loads maintain more than enough power and flight control characteristics at typical residential room/indoor distances. Reduced recoil loads are also far less punishing on the shooter and, as a result, facilitate distinctly faster "resetting" times for follow up shots than full-power loads. I have tested shot time difference between reduced recoil and full-power loads and shot count on target at various distances on myself as well as my wife. I am very confident using reduced recoil loads for home and self defense.
THOUSANDS of deer have been killed in the Southern US with buckshot. Ive seen them killed with everything from #4 buck to 000. Rule of thumb was to use the biggest pellet that your gun would pattern in a paper plate at 30-40 yds. That happened to be Winchester Super X #1 buck out of my Remington 1100 and Beretta 390 shotguns. In my guns a modified choke worked best. From the late 70's until present, that combo has accounted for dozens of dead whitetails. If possible I tried to shoot them in the head and neck, but shots to the vitals were equally lethal. Some pellets passed completely through and some didnt.
Long story shortened, go buy a few boxes of buckshot, see what patterns best out of your gun then have faith that reguardless of shot size, it will take the fight out of any would be home invader.
Long story shortened, go buy a few boxes of buckshot, see what patterns best out of your gun then have faith that reguardless of shot size, it will take the fight out of any would be home invader.
bamaranger
New member
#4/00B
In the front of my career, the outfit issued #4B, 27 pellet load. They finally had an agency shooting or two and the results were pretty dismal, due to range and clothing, the #4B pellets did not penetrate well at all. I also listened to a very sober lecture from an agent (not sure of agency) who shot a perp twice w/ #4B on the border and got drilled by .30 carbine himself. He went down (obviously survived) and the perp went back across the border to escape w/ unknown results.
Those episodes spawned a number of unoffical field tests against car doors, winter coats, you name it by staff, resulting in discussion, and to my knoweldege the general abandonment of #4B by Fed agencies, at least the land management outfits. OOB or slugs is now approved ammo for duty shotguns and has been since the late '80's.
In the front of my career, the outfit issued #4B, 27 pellet load. They finally had an agency shooting or two and the results were pretty dismal, due to range and clothing, the #4B pellets did not penetrate well at all. I also listened to a very sober lecture from an agent (not sure of agency) who shot a perp twice w/ #4B on the border and got drilled by .30 carbine himself. He went down (obviously survived) and the perp went back across the border to escape w/ unknown results.
Those episodes spawned a number of unoffical field tests against car doors, winter coats, you name it by staff, resulting in discussion, and to my knoweldege the general abandonment of #4B by Fed agencies, at least the land management outfits. OOB or slugs is now approved ammo for duty shotguns and has been since the late '80's.
youngunz4life
New member
winchester and/or federal 3", 15 pellet, 00 buck is what i use for self-defense.
I have grown to accept and appreciate 2 3/4" 00 buck, but I still use the 3" mentioned above for self-defense(as well as almost 100% of the time when the ammo is my choice). The way I see it, the intruder asked for the full kittenkaboodle if it ever comes to that(hopefully & probably not).
my home, my family, my choice....I have taken into effect issues that can arise with shotgun blasts and family members(the best anyone can anyways)
I have grown to accept and appreciate 2 3/4" 00 buck, but I still use the 3" mentioned above for self-defense(as well as almost 100% of the time when the ammo is my choice). The way I see it, the intruder asked for the full kittenkaboodle if it ever comes to that(hopefully & probably not).
my home, my family, my choice....I have taken into effect issues that can arise with shotgun blasts and family members(the best anyone can anyways)
comn-cents
New member
I use 00 9 pellet with a side saddle with slugs in it. Versatility is one of the best things about a shotgun. Leave bird shot for the birds, why waste time in thinking it "should" work okay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrxkjRXk7m8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrxkjRXk7m8
There are any number of factors influencing buckshot performance, but here are a few that seem to be more important-
1) Hard lead alloy and/or plated buckshot pellets. They tend to deform less on firing and being forced down the bore, and rounder pellets tend to fly straighter and thus tend to pattern better.
2) Grex (granulated plastic filler) or some other protection between the individual pellets inside the shotgun shell. Again, this helps deliver rounder, less deformed pellets out of the muzzle.
3) A shot cup or similar layer between the pellets and the inside of the barrel. As mentioned, this offers another layer of protection to the pellets.
I've found that in general, less expensive brands of buckshot (S&B, RIO etc) tend to be loaded with soft lead, unprotected pellets - and this produce the widest patterns.
The 'standard' loads from major manufacturers tend to offer grex filling inside a plastic shot cup, collar or one piece wad, and sometimes harder alloy or plated pellets (like Fiocchi), and tend to deliver medium size patterns.
The 'premium' loads (Federal, Hornady, Speer) offer hard lead plated pellets, generous amounts of grex, and a thick-walled shot cup with a good bit of room inside. This shot cup, known as a FliteControl wad, tends to hold pellets together until the whole cup exits from the muzzle, at which time the wad is retarded and the pattern continues downrange with pellets in close proximity. These loads tend to produce the tightest possible patterns from open choked shotguns.
I'm fine with 2 3/4" full velocity 9 pellet 00 buck, right now I'm using Federal LE-127 00. It has the FliteControl wad, and out of my favorite 18" CYL bore 870 it will print 4" patterns at 25 yards. I like tight patterns...
The sidesaddle is loaded with Brenneke KO slugs, in case I need more penetration than buckshot can deliver.
hth!
1) Hard lead alloy and/or plated buckshot pellets. They tend to deform less on firing and being forced down the bore, and rounder pellets tend to fly straighter and thus tend to pattern better.
2) Grex (granulated plastic filler) or some other protection between the individual pellets inside the shotgun shell. Again, this helps deliver rounder, less deformed pellets out of the muzzle.
3) A shot cup or similar layer between the pellets and the inside of the barrel. As mentioned, this offers another layer of protection to the pellets.
I've found that in general, less expensive brands of buckshot (S&B, RIO etc) tend to be loaded with soft lead, unprotected pellets - and this produce the widest patterns.
The 'standard' loads from major manufacturers tend to offer grex filling inside a plastic shot cup, collar or one piece wad, and sometimes harder alloy or plated pellets (like Fiocchi), and tend to deliver medium size patterns.
The 'premium' loads (Federal, Hornady, Speer) offer hard lead plated pellets, generous amounts of grex, and a thick-walled shot cup with a good bit of room inside. This shot cup, known as a FliteControl wad, tends to hold pellets together until the whole cup exits from the muzzle, at which time the wad is retarded and the pattern continues downrange with pellets in close proximity. These loads tend to produce the tightest possible patterns from open choked shotguns.
I'm fine with 2 3/4" full velocity 9 pellet 00 buck, right now I'm using Federal LE-127 00. It has the FliteControl wad, and out of my favorite 18" CYL bore 870 it will print 4" patterns at 25 yards. I like tight patterns...
The sidesaddle is loaded with Brenneke KO slugs, in case I need more penetration than buckshot can deliver.
hth!
"The 'premium' loads (Federal, Hornady, Speer) offer hard lead plated pellets, generous amounts of grex, and a thick-walled shot cup with a good bit of room inside. This shot cup, known as a FliteControl wad, tends to hold pellets together until the whole cup exits from the muzzle, at which time the wad is retarded and the pattern continues downrange with pellets in close proximity. These loads tend to produce the tightest possible patterns from open choked shotguns." Lee Lapin
Lee,
Hornady does not use any buffer, aka Grex, in its line of Buckshot, Varmit or Turkey shotshells.
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 8:39 PM
To: tech
Subject: "Technical Inquiries"
Ralph,
We make no reference to the buffering because we do not use any in our factory turkey, buck, and coyote loads. We appreciate your inquiry and your business.
Thank you
-----------------------------------------------------------
Hornady then, depends entirely on the VersaTite (same as Flite-Control) wad, hard - high antimony content pellets and in their Heavy Magnum Coyote and Turkey series, the addition of nickle plated pellets to deliver tight patterns.
RMcL
Lee,
Hornady does not use any buffer, aka Grex, in its line of Buckshot, Varmit or Turkey shotshells.
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 8:39 PM
To: tech
Subject: "Technical Inquiries"
Ralph,
We make no reference to the buffering because we do not use any in our factory turkey, buck, and coyote loads. We appreciate your inquiry and your business.
Thank you
-----------------------------------------------------------
Hornady then, depends entirely on the VersaTite (same as Flite-Control) wad, hard - high antimony content pellets and in their Heavy Magnum Coyote and Turkey series, the addition of nickle plated pellets to deliver tight patterns.
RMcL
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Mrgunsngear
New member
Here's a test of the Hornady TAP 00 with the VersaTite I did a few weeks ago if you want to see how it does on some ballistics gel from 15m away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woQyTKoD0Rk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woQyTKoD0Rk
I recently watched a video about a young man that found himself on the wrong end of a gang initiation. The perp, a fellow classmate, asked for a ride and then had the victim drive him to an abandoned lot. When they got out of the car the perp retrieved a hidden shotgun and began shooting the victim from a range of 10 feet or less. The perp fired three times hitting the victim once in the arm, once in the chest, and a grazing shot to the head. Then the perp hopped in the victims car and took off. The victim stood up, and walked to the nearest intersection where a police officer found him and got him first aid and an ambulance. The victim lived and fully recovered thank God. He was unconscious for several days. The point of all this is that birdshot is bad news as a defensive load. If the the tables were turned and I was up against a determined aggressor, possibly hopped up on something, I would want a load that would stop the incident immediately by interfering with the basic mechanics of the aggressors body as opposed to a low penetrating load that would leave his lungs and heart still more or less operational. It seems a grim way of looking at it, but that my logic. I hope to never put it to the test.
So in my Hd shotgun I tested three options. Basic 2 3/4" federal classic 00 & 000, as well as Remington 3" 00. Basic, cheap enough to train with, hunting grade buckshot. No versatightcontrol anything. All three have grex.
What I found was that the federal 00 was a very tight pattern at 20'. About 3". The federal 000 was a bit bigger, about 5". The Remington had the 'worst' pattern at around 8-10". This dovetails nicely with a rule of thumb i've read online that 3" magnums tend to pattern wider than standard loads. The reason I put the quotes around 'worst' is that I'm not sure what the objective is here. To my logic, the 10" pattern gives me more margin of error against a moving target. That's the whole point of a shotgun isn't it? It seems to me that the flite control systems are better applied to turkey and coyote loads and possibly to LE loads where more range may be necessary.
So in my Hd shotgun I tested three options. Basic 2 3/4" federal classic 00 & 000, as well as Remington 3" 00. Basic, cheap enough to train with, hunting grade buckshot. No versatightcontrol anything. All three have grex.
What I found was that the federal 00 was a very tight pattern at 20'. About 3". The federal 000 was a bit bigger, about 5". The Remington had the 'worst' pattern at around 8-10". This dovetails nicely with a rule of thumb i've read online that 3" magnums tend to pattern wider than standard loads. The reason I put the quotes around 'worst' is that I'm not sure what the objective is here. To my logic, the 10" pattern gives me more margin of error against a moving target. That's the whole point of a shotgun isn't it? It seems to me that the flite control systems are better applied to turkey and coyote loads and possibly to LE loads where more range may be necessary.
"Here's a test of the Hornady TAP 00 with the VersaTite I did a few weeks ago if you want to see how it does on some ballistics gel from 15m away."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woQyTKoD0Rk
plouffedaddy
------------------------------------------------------
Hornady responded to my recent query confirming the 12 ga. TAP FPD (For Personal Defense?) round is indeed loaded with low antimony/soft lead pellets - compared to other buckshot rounds in the Hornady line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woQyTKoD0Rk
plouffedaddy
------------------------------------------------------
Hornady responded to my recent query confirming the 12 ga. TAP FPD (For Personal Defense?) round is indeed loaded with low antimony/soft lead pellets - compared to other buckshot rounds in the Hornady line.
My research compells me to use 12 ga. #4 buck for tactical encounters, best combo of pellet size vs distribution for 2 legged criterz,
unless the situation calls for penetrating barriers (then 0-000 buck),
on the subject of gauge 12 or better for tactical;
on birdshot-not an effective load for self-defense, but besides hunting) it is an appropriate rd when your intention may be to harrass, fend off (without killing), slow down, or otherwise impede an opponent
sunaj
unless the situation calls for penetrating barriers (then 0-000 buck),
on the subject of gauge 12 or better for tactical;
on birdshot-not an effective load for self-defense, but besides hunting) it is an appropriate rd when your intention may be to harrass, fend off (without killing), slow down, or otherwise impede an opponent
sunaj
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I see I am guilty of overgeneralization ... didn't mean to imply that every manufacturer used every one of the features I listed.
After seeing the pellet deformation in the Hornady test video, it's apparent those pellets are not hardened, plated or protected by buffering. I can't see any way Hornady wouldn't benefit from things that help their shotshells deliver rounder pellets on target, but...
I stopped using Hornady TAP FPD buckshot several years ago, because their crimps were so sloppy it was disturbing. I haven't bought any since, and AFAIK don't have any left. I still prefer Federal LE127-00 with FliteControl, till something better comes along.
After seeing the pellet deformation in the Hornady test video, it's apparent those pellets are not hardened, plated or protected by buffering. I can't see any way Hornady wouldn't benefit from things that help their shotshells deliver rounder pellets on target, but...
I stopped using Hornady TAP FPD buckshot several years ago, because their crimps were so sloppy it was disturbing. I haven't bought any since, and AFAIK don't have any left. I still prefer Federal LE127-00 with FliteControl, till something better comes along.