Bubbas VS Purists.

"Do we have some obligation to history not to destroy future collectibles just for history's sake?"

Not everything is, should be, can be, or even will be a collectible.
 
And you can pretty well bet that whatever people think WILL be collectible will be something that ISN'T collectible because everyone will keep it and there will be too many.

Think Sacagawea dollars and, even better, Hess trucks. Hess trucks WERE collectible until everybody realized they were and started buying them by the dozen. Now they're cheap scrap... except the ones from before everyone collected them.
 
I gotta go with HiBc on this. Most of the builds I ever did were on "Parts Guns" and that is usually the case. I once reworked a Type "I" Arisaka into a 7-30 Waters. The gun had no stock. Good luck ever finding one. Replace a stock on a M98 ? Yeah, right. The "Collectors" would go anal on you and pull out their magnifying glasses. A lot of guys on this forum can tell you that anything that went to war sure would not look like a "Collector" gun. If it is that clean, it probably spent the war on a rack somewhere, unless it was refinished as most of the Russian scrap coming in is. Oh, wait a minute. A gun can't be refinished and collectable, can it?
 
Oh, wait a minute. A gun can't be refinished and collectable, can it?
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Sure it can.

Collectable depends on what the gun is (and the collector). Value of the gun, as a collectable, depends on its condition.

Top dollar goes to the pristine, all original ones. Guns with documented history (not just a story) are the next level down, generally. Guns of famous people, are a whole different thing.

I've got a 1936 Luger. I think most would consider any Luger collectable, but a pre WWII Nazi marked Luger? I think that would qualify as collectable.

The gun looks new. Its not all matching numbers. All the markings are crisp and clear (and as well as I can tell from research, fully correct, and no import marks).

The story I got told when I got it was that, yes, the gun had been reblued, but it was done during the war (WWII, by the Germans). This, of course, may or may not be true, there's no proof, either way. It was priced at about half of what a original finish gun would bring. So, I bought it. Always wanted a Luger of my own, anyway. :D

I also have a Broomhandle Mauser, a Bolo. Gun looks new, and is in 9mm Luger. That gun was made in the 1920s. Obviously refinished at some time, but professionally done, (all the markings are clear), possibly when it was converted to 9mm. Its cost was about the same as an original finish gun of the same vintage, with no finish left (and a worn out bore). An original finish gun with a good remaining finish was much more expensive.

I think these are collectables, just not the top end of the value scale, because they have been refinished.

Collectors are a funny breed, some are nit pickers, others are just happy to be able to get some example of what they are looking for. A rusted battlefield pick up with a bullet hole in the stock might be worth more to one collector than a pristine example of the same gun. The next collector might have just the opposite feeling, showing it with their wallet.
 
I would have to say that I fall into the not normal group... I prefer to not pay top dollar for a gun with everything right ( sure I would, if I were a lottery winner ) but being on a limited budget, I have to be more thrifty... that said, I don't want an ugly worn out gun, & for some models, having a decent looking, working example is good enough... even if it has been refinished... & if I can buy that nicely refinished example, for the same price as something that looks like it was dug up on a battlefield ( without documentation that it was actually dug up from a battlefield ) I'd go that route
 
I'd like to submit that most of us fall in between the "Bubba vs Purist" extremes. Obviously there are weapons that, were we to get hold of, we'd never think to modify or restore, others we might be inclined to, and finally some that we'd have no problem with rebuilding/refurbishing.
 
My very seasoned gun buddies and I never give permanently modified milsurps a second glance. A friend has thirty excellent-mint milsurps in his vault.

The perm. modified examples lost their character, much of the value, and other than with a limited number of MNs, simply increases the prices of those Enfields, Mausers etc which survived in the original configuration.

A friend has a beautiful pre-WW2 Czech Mauser in excellent condition (Orlando gun show, two years ago), which had already been re-blued with a nice reddish stain on the wood, but in the original configuration.
So many guns already had parts cut off and have nothing to lose. As for the better examples, y'all are free to grind down, drill and cut anything out there.
 
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"modified examples lost their character"
If by "character" we mean it looks like it belongs on a movie set ;). At the end of the day, collectors are about collectability, and not history, and that means marketing. Otherwise they'd seek out Bubba and Bubba Sr. and demand tall tales of bygone hunting seasons, and young'uns brought up on the chop-job. Let's not kid ourselves about "history" here, unless we are speaking of guns with providence --anything else is just puffery. If the guns are more an investment, it makes since to fret over such things, if more a tool, it does not, and if they are merely a diversion (novelty, look cool, "historical relevance," etc) I don't think it really matters beyond personal preference. Most of us are in the last group I imagine--not really serious horse-trading collectors, but not completely immune to the wiles of interesting firearms. It's all a balance.

I've been chastised for rebarrelling my Steyr M95. A gun that was first rechambered to 8x56R, then chopped down (stock, too), had the sling swivels moved around and ugly fillers left in their place, new emblems stamped over old, parts replaced in the bolt assembly, new units stamped over the schritt-measured sight, and alternately beat upon or dipped in cosmoline --all by governments and therefore "correct." And I'm the bad guy for making something truly unique and (to the extent of my ability) well made :rolleyes:

Most people who denounce Bubba will claim he destroys value blah blah blah as if it's any skin off their own nose or any of their business whatsoever. It was worth it to Bubba, or he wouldn't do it. My M95 was cheap because none of the concerned collector's wanted it, and ammo is unavailable. I chalk this stuff up to petty jealousy from people who, unlike Bubba, were too cheap to shell out for a comparable rifle, and are now annoyed the rate just went up another tick because he destroyed their chance. In all but very few circumstances, the guns are still available that you can find modified, you just have to want them enough to shell out for them. If anything, I wish there were more bubba'ed guns around, since it'd make it a lot easier for me to buy a used Python or SVT400 without having to pay a ridiculous collector's premium that has nothing to do with my intended use.

Maybe collectors are just mad that, if all else fails, Bubba can always make a gun he doesn't have, while they cannot create anything that interests them (with the possible exception of Mitchell's Mausers Historical Firearm Mass-Production Works :D)

I have a theory that in a few decades, Bubba guns that have not been re-modified into faux-military configurations, as is the fad right now, will be worth far more due to their "closer" proximity to their "correct grade" origins and because nearly none of these reconversions are particularly high quality from a collection point of view. Now fraudsters, on the other hand, will have a field day with today's bogus SMLEs and Sniper Mosins and Mitchell Mausers (as if they aren't already)

I'm someone will also give me hell about replacing the crummy rotted bore of my Steyr Hahn with something chambered in a round you can actually find :rolleyes:

TCB
 
Purist here. If you want a hunting rifle, please go and buy one. Thanks. If you want a military rifle, buy one of those. Very good. But PUHLEEEZE don't bubba a nice milsurp rifle. No, I don't want to hear your side of it.

I look at anyone (and everyone) who would destroy the originality of a nice rifle, even a Mosin, as I look at kids covered with tattoos, facial piercings and black nail polish. Yeah, it's your body and your gun, and it's a free country, but that doesn't mean you can rub 2 brain cells together.

Sorry for the harsh rant, but you only have to go to half a dozen gun shows, see the tragedies on the tables, to realize why "sporterizing" causes most normal people to gag. Spend hundreds of dollars customizing a $75 military rifle with nice wood, refinishing, etc., and you have, well, a $50 rifle when it's done. Because the heart and soul of your "sporter" is still just a rack-grade, half-century old (or older) action made by the lowest bidder. Sorry 'bout that.
 
A nice gun no but there are a lot of junk not worth a tank of fuel on cost guns out there and it wont be worth what my springfeilds or mausers will be in my life time so why the heck not. People even think made in Italy cap and ball guns that cost less than new smith 29s are colector guns just like SKS guns so stupidity is the key.
 
Purist here. If you want a hunting rifle, please go and buy one. Thanks. If you want a military rifle, buy one of those. Very good. But PUHLEEEZE don't bubba a nice milsurp rifle. No, I don't want to hear your side of it.
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Smith Corona 1903A3 :D:D:D:D:D

 
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Takedown double set trigger Steyr M95--that's how you do it. This is the direct inspiration for my project (the stock at least)

Purists, remember that the "worthless" guns you deride were once worth as much as the unmodified guns, before they were made scarcer by modifications. Enfield's were sold out of barrels as well as Mausers--the guns were worthless trash that had to gotten rid of after the war.

TCB
 
barnbwt: You make some very good points. I can't deny that many of you guys created some attractive guns that do have unique character.

My comment about many guns that lost their character, was only about original military character, because that's the only real appeal for many of us.
So many Enfields or some 7mm Mausers I've seen (mostly on Gunbroker) with hacked off front sights baffles me, but often the cutting was done by previous owners.

I just wish that many more of these were still in the original configuration, which would keep prices more stable. Quite frankly, my main regret is not having the gun bug decades ago when numerous types of surplus ammo were both cheap and available:(.
 
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Ar’s are one thing, old military rifles are another. I don’t put a bunch of lights, handles and lasers on my AR’s but high end barrels and scopes are mounted.
As far as old guns the only one I have modified is my 03-A3. I bought it as is and at the time I wished it was stock but now after having it for over 20 years even if I had the parts to put it back to original condition I wouldn’t change it,
 
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I've said this before.
Today,for the most part,it does not make economic sense to build a rifle on a milsurp,especially if you are paying a smith to do it.

But,before folks get wrapped up in disdain for Bubba,I suggest you take a long,hard look at the history of the bolt action sporting rifle.Wnnington and Remchester were not necessarily the innovators .

A large part of the crotchety old local gunsmith,stock suppliers like Bishop and Fajen,barrel makers like Douglas and Obermeyer,reamer suppliers like Clymer triggermakers like Timney and Canjar,Brownell's,etc,pretty much made the resources we have today economically feasible as enterprises.Reworking the Milsurp was the market.

One of the big draws to NRA membership was a means to buy DCM bolt rifles,most in military trim,and,I suppose some of the milsurp purists would not recognize or appreciate an original NRA DCM sporter.Or a Sedgley Springfield.Griffin and Howe Sporter?Suppose PO Ackley would have been successful?Would we have Trinidad State Junior College's gunsmith school?

Yes,its true,a lot of nice milsurps ended up in poorly fitted,strangely shaped Herters stocks with enormous rollover Monte Carlos,bleach bottle white lines,drill press semi-precision? drill and tap jobs,etc.But,to the Bubba,each one was his own treasure.

How many of you got the Mauser or Springfield your dad or grandpa built?

Now,think about this.If this cottage industry around converting milsurps had not grown to something of an economic force,

Why in the world would our government permit a bunch of cheap milsurp bolt guns to be imported ? I'll bet Winnington and Remchester did not lobby for the import.

Nope,if it were not for the Bubba market,near all of your precious pieces of history would have been chop sawed,sheared,torched and mangled to become Honda Super 90 cc connecting rods and swingarms.

I think the C+Rs would be far more rare than they are today,as the channels of import...oh,like Springfield Sporters,would never have been established.

Your Bubba is the 50's and 60's and 70's NRA member and rifle enthusiast.Some of those Bubbas bought an old South Bend,maybe a band saw.Some even bought a mill.Maybe,along the way,Bubba had some "learning pieces".But it is Bubba that evolved into the man who can thread a barrel,cut a chamber,fit wood to steel,and he learned on milsurps.Remember that if you know a good one,next time you ask him for help.

Now,I'm going to stay friendly,and not express contempt for folks who only have the skills to throw down money and buy what someone else has made.

Or gather them all up and put them in a safe so they can "have them"

Because there is room enough for all of us to have fun.

It is generally a form of being rude to make negative comments about another man's spouse,kids,dogs,pickup,and in particular,his taste in guns.

A whole lot of folks are happy and proud with their modern bolt action sporting rifles.Enjoy!!They are fine,functional firearms.

For my own tastes,I like controlled round feed and forgings.No put down on any other rifle.Most modern bolt rifles are redesigned for manufacturability.They shoot real good,but for me,I just do not connect.
 
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I'm in the "It's your rifle, If you want to be a total idiot with it that's your business" camp. Having said that I prefer to go in the opposite direction when possible.

Which do you prefer?
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Yes it is the same rifle.
Also when Bubba works his magic they legally are no longer c&r firearms
While it is true that I prefer as issued military rifles I would not find owning something like this objectionable.
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The Enfield pics on top and bottom constitute the greatest defeat suffered by British arms since Yorktown. Especially the top pic. **** what was Bubba thinking? Anyway, these few pics convinced me even more - I'm a purist.
 
http://bobsstuffandnonsense.blogspot.com/2011/06/my-ongoing-project-1941-long-branch-no.html
I haven't done anything in a while but this is what I did to counteract Bubba with this one
Undoing his handy work is far harder than his messing it up in the first place but it was fun and I learned a lot about No4 Lee-Enfield's in the process,
As far as forged receivers and controlled round feeding you have Winchester, CZ as well as the various commercially produced Mauser actions. There are I'm sure more out there but these are the ones that came to my mind immediately.
One of my favorite rifles of all are the pre64 Model 70 target rifles. I am seriously considering building a semi clone on a more modern Model 70 action. If I can pull it off it will of coarse be chambered in 30-06.:)
 
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