Browning/Saive/FNH Hi-Power question

highpower3006 said:
But my curiosity was piqued and I took another look at mine. Yep, it has the Browning rollmark. It is a "C" series and so dates from 1969. So, the question I have is, besides the ones made for government contracts, when did they produce them without the Browning rollmark?
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Your assumption seems to be that the U.S. was the main market for FN-made Hi-Powers. That was NOT the case. I don't think the US miltary nor ANY police/LEO organizations ever used them (except in VERY SMALL numbers.) The guns aren't known as Browning Hi-Powers elsewhere in the world. I suspect that "FN" carries more marketing punch than does "Browning" across the pond.

Browning (the company) imported guns made by FN; FN applied the Browning Rollmark. FN built a lot of HPs that weren't sold in the US or in markets controlled by the US); those other guns didn't carry the Browning roll mark. The British military guns didn't have Browning markings, as far as I know, nor did most of the guns sold in the Middle East or Africa.
 
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A new looking C-series or T-series Belgian Hi-Power will run you $1,000+.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=499321582
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Not always. If one is patient and has cash ready when the opportunity arises you can get them for much less. This gun was purchased for $550. It is a pre-T series with an internal extractor. No box no manual etc... but still way less than a $1,000. Gunbroker is the worst place to buy these types of BHPs. It is great for the surplus guns but anything considered remotely collectable there is over priced.

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WV,
Browning was never an "employee" of any gun company.

The arrangement he had with Colt was "buy my design".
The arrangement he had with FN was "pay me royalties on my design".

He was free to design for any company he wanted till the day he died.
Denis
 
DPris WV,
Browning was never an "employee" of any gun company.

The arrangement he had with Colt was "buy my design".
The arrangement he had with FN was "pay me royalties on my design".

He was free to design for any company he wanted till the day he died.
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Actually, after selling Winchester one of his early designs, JMB never sold a design outright again. After that he only sold a license to manufacture his designs, getting paid a royalty on each firearm.

As WV said, JMB was not free to sell or license his designs to just anyone. In 1896/97 and amended in 1912, JMB entered into a long term contract with FN & Colt that gave each company exclusive rights to manufacture and market his handgun designs in specific countries.
Colt exclusive territory was the US, Canada, Greenland :D, Newfoundland, St Pierre, Miquelon, Mexico, Central America above and including the Canal Zone, Antilles & West Indies.
Fabrique Nationale exclusive territory was Continental Europe (not including Great Britain and Ireland). FN could sell to GB & Ireland...but would have had to pay a royalty to Colt of 1.50Fr for each pistol sold.

The rest of the world was wide open to both Colt & FN.

The agreement lasted until the 1950's. (an that's why you didn't see a Hi Power available commercially in the US until Browning Arms began importing them.)

Although not an employee of FN, he did live in Belgium and have an office at FN.....and that's where he died.
 
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You're talking about SPECIFIC designs being limited to those geographic areas.
He couldn't contract with Colt, for instance, to manufacture FN-produced designs intended for the European market, but he was certainly free to design OTHER patterns anywhere he wanted, for anybody he wanted to.

He was not restricted in any way from producing NEW designs for anybody, anywhere, as long as those designs didn't overlap what he was already contractually involved with by a given company.

There were exceptions.
You may note the Browning Auto-5 was manufactured by both FN and Remington, same with the Remington Model 8.
Denis
 
Most Hi Powers aren't marked as Hi Powers! My FM is, and is the only BHP I have marked so. Still, everyone knows what they are, Browning or FN rollmark. I prefer the Browning rollmark.
 
DPris You're talking about SPECIFIC designs being limited to those geographic areas.
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No, I'm not.
JMB's agreement was with Colt & FN and gave those two companies exclusive rights to his handgun designs. If you have a copy of "The Browning Hi Power Automatic Pisolt" by R. Blake Stevens you can read the contract on pg3.




He couldn't contract with Colt, for instance, to manufacture FN-produced designs intended for the European market, but he was certainly free to design OTHER patterns anywhere he wanted, for anybody he wanted to.
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Of course he couldn't because his contract already gave FN exclusive rights to Continental Europe. Again, JMB gave EXCLUSIVE rights to his handgun designs to Colt 7 FN. If Savage, Beretta or Webley had asked to manufacture a Browning handgun design, they would not have been able to do so.





He was not restricted in any way from producing NEW designs for anybody, anywhere, as long as those designs didn't overlap what he was already contractually involved with by a given company.
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No sir. Read what I wrote. EXCLUSIVE is the term used in JMB's contracts for handgun designs to be manufactured and marketed by Colt & FN. If you disagree please point out such handgun.





There were exceptions.
You may note the Browning Auto-5 was manufactured by both FN and Remington, same with the Remington Model 8.
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Well, the A5/Auto5/Model 8 aren't HANDGUNS.
Reread what I wrote:
In 1896/97 and amended in 1912, JMB entered into a long term contract with FN & Colt that gave each company exclusive rights to manufacture and market his handgun designs in specific countries.
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Pointless & wandering.
Main idea is that Browning was NOT an employee of either company.
He had different arrangements historically with several makers, but was never employed by any of them.
Denis
 
You're talking about SPECIFIC designs being limited to those geographic areas.
He couldn't contract with Colt, for instance, to manufacture FN-produced designs intended for the European market, but he was certainly free to design OTHER patterns anywhere he wanted, for anybody he wanted to.

He was not restricted in any way from producing NEW designs for anybody, anywhere, as long as those designs didn't overlap what he was already contractually involved with by a given company.

There were exceptions.
You may note the Browning Auto-5 was manufactured by both FN and Remington, same with the Remington Model 8.
Denis
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With regard to pistols I believe this was not the case.

According to R Blake Stevens in The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol:

"Under date of July 24, 1896 the Browning Brothers granted to Colt's the exclusive right to manufacture, use and sell within the United States and Great Britain and Ireland all models of the Automatic Pistols and their improvements."

"By an agreement dated July 7, 1897 Browning granted to Fabrique NAtionale the exclusive right to manufacture or have manufactured, use and sell all automatic pistols in Belgium, France, Germany, Austria Hungry and Spain and any other country with the exception of the United States and Great Britain in which FN have been granted patents in the name of Browning. All other countries are free territories for either Colt's or FN to sell in."

It is my understanding that he did not develop another pistol outside of this contractual relationship which was in force until he died. These 2 companies had exclusive rights to any pistol he designed. He was not free to develop new pistols for anyone he wanted to. He was paid a lic fee for right to manufacture any pistols under this agreement.

Here is a copy of the inital payment for the Browning Model 1899 which became the FN model 1900.



If this is not correct please tell us what automatic pistols JMB produced for others outside this contract. I am interested and am happy to stand corrected if I am wrong. ;)
 
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As I said- pointless & wandering far from the original post.
Denis
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No one said he was an employee, that is your inaccurate verbiage. What I have and others have stated is that he had a contractual relationship with FN and Colt which restricted him from designing pistols for anyone but these 2 manufacturers. He was no longer a freelancer. He developed pistols for these 2 companies exclusively and was paid a royalty/licensing fee based on the number of pistols produced.

I do not understand how it became a pointless discussion. It is a huge part of the history of the gun we know as the BHP. It related directly to the OP because it speaks to the contractual relationship that Browning had with FN and sheds some light on why they are rollmarked the way they are.
It is only pointless because you are incorrect :eek:

To muddy the waters further after JMBs death Browning became the importer of the BHP into the US. They were still produced by FN but had a Browning Rollmark. Browning the company is then acquired by Fabrique Nationale FN in 1977. Which is why you will see some MKIIs and MKIIIs with FN rollmarks and Browning rollmarks in the US because at one time FN imported their own FN rollmarked guns outside of Browning. See now it once again has a point.:rolleyes:
 
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Didn't somebody mention a spring of some sort to help the magazine fall free? My BHP is for 1989-90 I forget which I bought it new but no springs on the mags anybody have a picture of same and when did they come out?
 
"After that he only sold a license to manufacture his designs, getting paid a royalty on each firearm."

I don't think that's correct.

I believe it was with the Auto 5 design that Browning started his quest to be paid royalties on each gun, as opposed to a lump sum for the design, and that's what caused his split with Winchester, when that company refused a royalties arrangement.
 
That explains why my magazines don't have it.
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No it does not there are factory 13 round mags that have the mousetrap feature. They often shipped with the Practicals. The Practicals shipped with rubber base plates but there are also 13 rounders with the mousetrap that do not have the bases.

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Mike Irwin
"After that he only sold a license to manufacture his designs, getting paid a royalty on each firearm."
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I don't think that's correct.

I believe it was with the Auto 5 design that Browning started his quest to be paid royalties on each gun, as opposed to a lump sum for the design, and that's what caused his split with Winchester, when that company refused a royalties arrangement.
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It's correct, and so are you.;)
JMB took the Auto 5 to Winchester in 1898....who weren't interested in the idea of licensing/royalties. JMB then went to Remington and while sitting in the waiting room......the president of Remington had a heart attack and died in his office. Obviously, he didn't make the sale. JMB hopped back on a train (to return to Utah) where a rep from Fabrique Nationale recognized him and invited JMB to show his new design to FN.
 
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