When did you get a mod title here? Discussions are fluid in nature just because you are the OP does not mean you get to dictate the flow of the discussion.
Browning HP Discontinued
- Thread starter DPris
- Start date
But, why does the flow have to get so far off topic?
I wouldn't care if any other, or every other, 9mm pistol on the market were discontinued, but the HP is a classic, "old school", whatever you want to call it, but most service pistols on the market today can trace their heritage back to the HP's hi-cap mag, method of barrel locking, or both.
Instead of, "My plastic fantastic is better", maybe a more appropriate reaction would be, "Gee, if it weren't for the HP, maybe there wouldn't be a plastic fantastic?"
I wouldn't care if any other, or every other, 9mm pistol on the market were discontinued, but the HP is a classic, "old school", whatever you want to call it, but most service pistols on the market today can trace their heritage back to the HP's hi-cap mag, method of barrel locking, or both.
Instead of, "My plastic fantastic is better", maybe a more appropriate reaction would be, "Gee, if it weren't for the HP, maybe there wouldn't be a plastic fantastic?"
Don't disagree with that but I am not sure that everyone has to agree with that opinion. I love the BHP but its day as a profitable pistol for a company like FN is over. It was not profitable for Charles Daly either. If it was so important and meaningful to the shooting world today then it would have sold better over the past decade and would not be being discontinued.
I love it when people come out of the wood work to proclaim the greatest of a discontinued pistol. Where were they for the past 10 years as the BHPs sales slipped past profitability.
There is a reason why it is going the way it is. I wish it was not happening but in the end the writing has been on the wall for a long time.
I don't think it is that far off topic.
Browning can tell us that from FN they are being told the equipment is worn out. But if Browning Hi Powers were flying off the shelves at the current prices and there were dozens of special orders at every gun store for Hi Powers I feel fairly confident in saying that someone would step in and fill that niche and find a way to make more. And while I think we have many people on this forum here that appreciate the Hi Power, I think it's fair to say that other designs have become more popular. That doesn't take away from the Hi Power "legacy", it just speaks to current market trends.
While those are fair points, where does that logic end? What about the first pistol to use the 9x19mm cartridge? What about the first semiautomatic pistol? What about the first handgun to use a cartridge? Plenty of pistols that were, imo, more fundamental to the development of firearms have come and gone. There will always be those that regret their passing. And there will always be those that don't care.
I think that's a bit of hyperbole. Despite the fact that I wouldn't consider myself old, at least not yet, a Hi Power was one of my first semiautomatic pistols. I enjoyed it though I came to like other designs better. I have any number of friends that have never owned one and some I doubt could pick one out of a lineup (and if so only by process of elimination). Just because not everyone shares your sense of sadness doesn't mean the discussion is no longer useful. It just means not everyone sees it the same way.
And quite frankly the fact that this thread is only 3 pages long and many of those posts are the meaningless comparisons you seem to think have been made might be an indicator that, "The King is dead, long live the King." The world moved on.
I think this post nails it. The current world of tactical plastic is relevant because it is what killed the economic viability of the BHP. A discussion about the end of its production without a discussion of the factors that lead to its demise would be incomplete.
The reality is that it is not that popular a pistol anymore. If you look at TFL realistically its membership represents firearms enthusiasts and even among those who are passion about guns there is a fair amount of indifference to this iconic design. For the avg joe who owns a few guns and shoots a handful of times a year the BHP was not relevant long ago.
HisSoldier
New member
What you are seeing is what happens when people accept inferior materials in products, there is much more profit in squirting plastic into a mold than in machining steel, and if people not only accept "polymers" (Just a technical term for plastics, not any special high tech plastic, all plastics are polymers) but prefer them the machining of steel guns becomes unprofitable.
There is a saying in coin currency, "Bad money drives out good money", it means when the value of the coin is lowered by adulteration of the base metals in the coins people naturally collect the more valuable coins, and they go out of circulation.
That's what is happening to steel guns now, they are being snatched up by collectors like me.
In the end we'll see all steel guns for sale only with very high prices. Value doesn't change, but prices do, because value is fixed while currency naturally is devalued. When that happens people remember what they used to pay and feel like they are getting ripped off.
As a production machinist I dearly hope all steel handguns don't go extinct.
There is a saying in coin currency, "Bad money drives out good money", it means when the value of the coin is lowered by adulteration of the base metals in the coins people naturally collect the more valuable coins, and they go out of circulation.
That's what is happening to steel guns now, they are being snatched up by collectors like me.
In the end we'll see all steel guns for sale only with very high prices. Value doesn't change, but prices do, because value is fixed while currency naturally is devalued. When that happens people remember what they used to pay and feel like they are getting ripped off.
As a production machinist I dearly hope all steel handguns don't go extinct.
Polymer is not inferior. You believe it is inferior because of your subjective criteria. There are many advantages of Polymer framed guns over metal ones. If you look closely at the cost of metal guns they are not going up in prices when you index the prices vs inflation. SIGSHR's purchase demonstrates that.
SIGSHR said:
You see the same thing with S&W Revolvers, Gen 3 Smiths, German Sigs etc... The real exception is the Cult stats of the Colt Python which is off the charts but there are different factors at play there.
I shoot metal guns 4 to 1 vs polymer but polymer has its place. I don't worry about this kind of stuff because I will be worm food before the supply of used BHPs is exhausted.
themalicious0ne
New member
I think the point that steel handguns are no longer produced is a long way off. The issue with the BHP was price. You can get many comparable or better steel handguns at a lesser price point.
While the BHP is iconic, it is expensive. If they were priced at $5-700, you would see them being much more common. Look at their competitors, CZ, Beretta, Tangfolio, Sig, etc. Look at all these other steel framed hi-cap 9mm. Why would someone purchase a BHP over these if not for nostalgia? I would love to get one, but at that price point, it'll probably be a surplus. Unfortunately for the sake of the BHP it did not go the way of the 1911, which is unfortunate.
Someday we may even see Glock go the same way. Who knows. I think for "classic" guns, the key to their success is really in their ability to modify. How many variations of 1911's are out there with so many different options. Or what about CZ? They still make the 75, but they offer so many other options that bring people to the brand and then they may want the classic. Same with S&W revolvers. They still make the classics but not everyone is originally interested in those. Honestly the Beretta M9 is going the same way as the BHP IMHO. Maybe not for many years but if you cant draw people into the company on much of your products in a particular category, That investment into those classics aren't going to always be there.
While the BHP is iconic, it is expensive. If they were priced at $5-700, you would see them being much more common. Look at their competitors, CZ, Beretta, Tangfolio, Sig, etc. Look at all these other steel framed hi-cap 9mm. Why would someone purchase a BHP over these if not for nostalgia? I would love to get one, but at that price point, it'll probably be a surplus. Unfortunately for the sake of the BHP it did not go the way of the 1911, which is unfortunate.
Someday we may even see Glock go the same way. Who knows. I think for "classic" guns, the key to their success is really in their ability to modify. How many variations of 1911's are out there with so many different options. Or what about CZ? They still make the 75, but they offer so many other options that bring people to the brand and then they may want the classic. Same with S&W revolvers. They still make the classics but not everyone is originally interested in those. Honestly the Beretta M9 is going the same way as the BHP IMHO. Maybe not for many years but if you cant draw people into the company on much of your products in a particular category, That investment into those classics aren't going to always be there.
I have CZs, Beretta's and Sigs but the BHP fits me more naturally than any other gun. I do have an affinity for JMB and Saive's BHP but for me it just shoots better in my hands. This is clearly not the same for everyone.
I guess I just don't understand why now that the gun is being discontinued people are coming out of the wood work to proclaim the greatness of the BHP. Where have you been for the last decade as sales faded. I am not speaking to anyone directly with this comment just more in general.
JoeSixpack
New member
I dunno about that I've heard kind words about the BHP in various threads.
It's funny though.. People talk about the BHP like it's been made obsolete.
I never look at guns that way.. It's still as capable as the day it was first produced.
People are talking about the poly striker guns like they're some sort of raygun compared to the BHP..
Honestly if someone out there is winning fights cause their gun is made a few oz lighter more power to them.
I agree with the op what ever the reason it is a sad day, an end of an American Classic.
Even if you're not a fan of the gun that much should still be obvious.
I don't own one, and don't plan to get one, But im still sad to hear of it's demise.
On the other hand Im sure clones will fill the market demand.
Much like Colt 1911's/AR15's are not the majority of those guns sold anymore.
It's funny though.. People talk about the BHP like it's been made obsolete.
I never look at guns that way.. It's still as capable as the day it was first produced.
People are talking about the poly striker guns like they're some sort of raygun compared to the BHP..
Honestly if someone out there is winning fights cause their gun is made a few oz lighter more power to them.
I agree with the op what ever the reason it is a sad day, an end of an American Classic.
Even if you're not a fan of the gun that much should still be obvious.
I don't own one, and don't plan to get one, But im still sad to hear of it's demise.
On the other hand Im sure clones will fill the market demand.
Much like Colt 1911's/AR15's are not the majority of those guns sold anymore.
Its not an "American Classic" its a Belgian gun made by FN designed by a Belgian Dieudonné Joseph Saive for the French.
I don't think that people are saying that polymer is better in every way they are saying that polymer has its place and it has certain advantages over mental guns.
People keep bringing up clones as if there were never clones in the past. FEG, FM, Arcus, Charles Daley, TİSAŞ, Kareen etc... The only one still in production IIRC is the TİSAŞ and it is a fairly new offering but it is not imported into the US. I believe they are sold in Canada.
None of these clones ever sold well. They were never as good as the original FN/Browning guns so I am not sure that they would be successful now. Most people who are BHP fans would buy used over these clones when you could get the real deal VG condition for about the same price as the clone NIB.
It will be interesting to see if TİSAŞ tries to bring them in. If they do I hope them change the configuration because they are using the Pre MKII sights which are functional but not optimal. Using a Novak or 1911 dovetail would be a better option.
True often more than just one.Anyone who thinks it's the greatest already has theirs.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
The Hi-Power was designed to be a military service pistol in the 1930s. Probably 90% of its sales are in that capacity. Not surprisingly, a military service pistol that is expensive to produce, harder to maintain, and has a shorter service life than its modern competitors bleeds sales. That it hung in there that long says a lot aboutthe Hi-Power.
The 1911 basically experienced the same issue. The difference is the 1911 was reinvented as a "custom" pistol for serious shooters and helped along by the 1994 ban. FN doesn't seem to have any interest in doing that with the Hi-Power; but honestly, why would they? The polymer pistols in the FN line probably have a higher profit margin. And Hi-Powers are already plenty expensive with no custom features... not to mention that the one company that tried to go that route with the Hi-Power (Charles Daly) didn't have much success.
Plus a custom 4.15" 2011 in 9mm will totally make you forget a Hi-Power...
The 1911 basically experienced the same issue. The difference is the 1911 was reinvented as a "custom" pistol for serious shooters and helped along by the 1994 ban. FN doesn't seem to have any interest in doing that with the Hi-Power; but honestly, why would they? The polymer pistols in the FN line probably have a higher profit margin. And Hi-Powers are already plenty expensive with no custom features... not to mention that the one company that tried to go that route with the Hi-Power (Charles Daly) didn't have much success.
Plus a custom 4.15" 2011 in 9mm will totally make you forget a Hi-Power...
There is a hand-built Hi-Power available, or, soon to be available, if people want to go the custom route.
Elite Warrior Armament.
https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/elite-warrior-armament-classic-p35.27444/
Those who want to hop on the bandwagon late, might still be able to get a gun from Nighthawk Custom.
http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/browning-hi-power
Elite Warrior Armament.
https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/elite-warrior-armament-classic-p35.27444/
Those who want to hop on the bandwagon late, might still be able to get a gun from Nighthawk Custom.
http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/browning-hi-power
The core issue is the death of an icon.
We'll see the same thing happen when Colt eventually lets the Peacemaker go.
Lotta words on "But, Rugers are a BETTER single-action", by those who don't understand what the Peacemaker embodies.
I was saddened to see Walther drop the P-38 back in the 90s.
It ain't a matter of "What's Better."
It's a matter of history.
"Progress" marches on, but it's still hard to let ground-breaking classics & pivotal pieces of firearms development go.
Denis
We'll see the same thing happen when Colt eventually lets the Peacemaker go.
Lotta words on "But, Rugers are a BETTER single-action", by those who don't understand what the Peacemaker embodies.
I was saddened to see Walther drop the P-38 back in the 90s.
It ain't a matter of "What's Better."
It's a matter of history.
"Progress" marches on, but it's still hard to let ground-breaking classics & pivotal pieces of firearms development go.
Denis
JoeSixpack
New member
My mistake I thought John Browning designed it, Wiki said he died before he finalized the design.
So maybe not a true "American" classic, still a classic though.
So maybe not a true "American" classic, still a classic though.