Browning Hi Power

[WVsig]

The magazine safety on the BHP slides against the front of the magazine as the trigger is plulled...that friction is what produces the infamous "gritty" feel to the trigger. If one wishes to keep their BHP original but cannot abide the grittiness, one can touch a Que-tip with a minute amount of grease to the place on the magazine where the magazine safety rubs...there will be a mark indicating the place on blued magazines. The grittiness will be gone...temporarily and will have to be re-applied during extended range sessions. But, your BHP will still be in the original condition to maintain re-sale value.

If one is concerned about the resale value of the pistol you can simply remove the disconnect and then replace it when you go to sell it. If you take it out properly you do not damage it or the pistol. However on a working pistol which you intend to shoot the disconnect is the least of your worries when it comes to resale value. IMHO.

As for the lube on the mag this method really depends on the vintage of the mag you are using. On older mags this temporary fix might work. Newer factory and Mecgar have a coating which makes them very slick without the lube. To me this is a not a real fix.

The other options is to get the phosphate coated factory mags which are even slicker. One can also polish the from the the disconnect. Polishing the spot on the mags does not work on newer mags because the factory finish is slicker than you can make it. LOL Personally I just yank the thing out.

To the original lube question people are way over thinking it IMHO and I believe your smith is tell you to under lube the gun. Your method is not harming the gun in any way. Most of us are not shooting in sub freezing temps, dragging or throwing our guns in the sand, dirt or mud. We are are not firing thousands of rounds without cleaning. A thin visible line of grease is not going to do any harm. I run all of my BHPs that way and have had zero issues. As others have pointed out if you have too much the gun will let you know by spitting it at you. Don't over think it and maybe look for a new BHP smith.

 

[sicumj]

I purchased a Hi Power in the mid 70's and have it still. I've never greased a pistol I own. For the past twenty years I've used a dry lube on the whole internals and rails then put one small drop of oil where ever bluing is wearing. Most people over lube their weapons causing the weapon to attract dirt.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Most people over lube their weapons causing the weapon to attract dirt."

You mean Shell Oil execs should NOT be nosing around my gun box and chattering excitedly about new reserves?




Just a minor nit, though.

Greases and oils generally don't have electrostatic properties, meaning that they won't attract dirt and fouling.

They will, however, latch onto anything that comes in contact with it and not let it go.

 

[g.willikers]

read page 14 here:

Like from the owner's manual?
Real men don't need to read no stinkin' manual.
Especially the part that sez:
"Do not take your gun's action apart beyond the extent explained in this manual."

 

[cc-hangfire]

Opinions are like elbows; everybody has a couple. And I'll admit that I likely over lubricate my pistols, but I like cleaning them --- so too much lube only punishes me by taking longer to clean. Given that intro, here's my $0.02:

1. Minimum lube required to run the semiauto depends on the gun. I have a Star BM 9mm that I was shooting fairly dry and it couldn't make it through an 8 round mag with FTF or FTE. I added several drops of CLP to the rails and that solved the problem. My Glock 26 will run flawlessly practically dry.

2. The all metal construction and full length rails on the Star or similar guns need more lube than polymer framed handguns with short rails.

3. In general, less lube is better for cleaning issues. More lube gathers more dirt and takes more effort to clean. For a service handgun or EDC, using the correct amount of lube is more critical - they MUST function when needed but you don't want oil & grease getting everywhere. For range guns, grease 'em up; who cares if oil gets everywhere!

4. So for your particular gun, to determine minimum lube needed take it to the range dry (or as dry as you can stand), and bring your cleaning/lube kit. Run a couple of mags, and if it doesn't cycle without FTF or FTE, field strip and add a little lube to the rails. Repeat until you get perfect function.

5. Other metal to metal contact points - particularly hammer to slide - needs some lube too. For any steel part a very light (wipe with a lightly oiled cloth) coat of oil helps protect from oxidation.

 

[RickB]

Don't load your gun until immediately before firing.
Don't put a loaded gun in a holster.
Don't do a lot of things that most people think are absolutely necessary.

 

[Erno86]

Defendants in jury trials that involve shootings, have gotten into trouble by removing their BHP disconnector; so much that the opposing lawyer will accuse you altered the BHP in such a way that made it easier to kill people.

 

[jag2]

Really? Sounds like the same internet crapola about shooting someone with hand loads, Homeland security is buying up all the ammo, etc. Can you site a case? What is your source?

 

[Limnophile]

There are all sorts of horror stories about unscrupulous prosecutors hounding self-defense survivors. But, I think one who argues that removal of a magazine disconnect safety makes one an irresponsible killer loses credibility, at least if your defense attorney and jury are competent. You might have to hire a credible expert witness to point out that most comparable pistols have no mag disconnect, that many BHP owners opt to disable their mag disconnects, and that the absence of a mag disconnect played no role (almost certainly) in the shooting in question.

At least that's one theory. Before having your carry pistol modified in any way, consider the jurisdiction(s) you carry in. If the populace and politicians are progressive, it might be wise to limit any modifications to cosmetics.

 

[sicumj]

I did some trigger work to mine years ago and got it to around 4.5lb without disconnecting or removing any parts. You can always do the old revolver trick of pushing forward on the hammer and pulling the trigger. Do this about 50 - 100 times and it will make a difference.

I seriously doubt that the authorities would even notice that the pistol was modified unless something calls their attention to the mechanics of the weapon. Anything can happen in court, but a good self defense shoot should be ruled justified. Act responsible use your weapon as a last result as it should be will go a long way in eliminating suspicion and further investigation.

 

[Erno86]

I believe I read about the advice from some author who published a story in some gun magazine many years ago; warning owners not to remove the disconnector on the BHP due to previous jury trial litigations. That warning, has decided on myself...that I will not remove my disconnector on my BHP.

 

[WVsig]

I believe I read about the advice from some author who published a story in some gun magazine many years ago; warning owners not to remove the disconnector on the BHP due to previous jury trial litigations. That warning, has decided on myself...that I will not remove my disconnector on my BHP.

That is a highly contested point.

 

[Erno86]

Google: the legal ramifications on removing the BHP disconnector


"If the defendant removes an integral safety device {mag disconnector} then that becomes ammunition for the prosecution to 'fabricate' a scenario villanizing the defendant. The jury on these cases are average Joes most of whom are unfamiliar with weapons and their functions and most of them fear guns and their users.

The prosecution will say, 'The defendant is so reckless that he deactivated a safety device on a lethal weapon!!!'"

 

[WVsig]

"If the defendant removes an integral safety device {mag disconnector} then that becomes ammunition for the prosecution to 'fabricate' a scenario villanizing the defendant. The jury on these cases are average Joes most of whom are unfamiliar with weapons and their functions and most of them fear guns and their users.

The prosecution will say, 'The defendant is so reckless that he deactivated a safety device on a lethal weapon!!!'"

Case law please... Please sight a case where this happened. This line of thought is often attributed to Ayoob. Last time it was discussed on THR he chimed in and all he could site was one case where the BHP was not even used in the shooting event which was a negligent discharge of a different firearm but a BHP was in the car and became part of the case. He could not elaborate because it was settled out of court and sealed IIRC.

Beyond that he could not give another example. So was is often propagated as internet truth is really just his opinion which not everyone shares.

 

[RickB]

I'd ask the prosecutor to prove that the magazine disconnector is a safety device?
Two of the largest shooting sports in the world, USPSA/IPSC and IDPA, do not consider the mag disconnector a safety.
Some police departments require that their duty pistols have the disconnector, some departments don't allow them, and I suspect officer safety is the reason in both cases.
A mixed bag, at best.

 

[Limnophile]

As I recall, the French military, which commissioned the design of the BHP, required the mag disconnect, presumably as a safety mechanism. I can't think of how it could be an effective safety, other than it allows one to eject the mag and safe the gun before a bad guy can wrest it from and turn it on you. But, if you are nimble and sharp enough to remember to do that, you are probably good enough to not get into such a jam in the first place.

I think Ayoob has a propensity to turn his expert witness experiences into magazine articles, even experiences, such as this one, that are relatively minor. However, I can see a progressive, anti-gun prosecutor raising the issue, and, if he does, even if you never set foot in a courtroom, you will likely spend good money on attorney and expert witness time to convince the prosecutor to back off.

If you carry in pro-American jurisdictions, disabling a mag disconnect is likely a complete non-issue. If you carry in progressive jurisdictions it's likely a minor issue at most.

 

[Ibmikey]

I think i am a bit confused, how did a greasy BHP end up in court with questionable safety parts removed? Back to a question asked some time before, what caused the OP to take his HP to a gunsmith in the first place? Did the pistol malfunction and the GS attributed it to excess grease? If the HP functions fine for the OP, grease or no grease what is the problem? I will wait for the OP's response to clear my confusion.

 

[WVsig]

I think i am a bit confused, how did a greasy BHP end up in court with questionable safety parts removed? Back to a question asked some time before, what caused the OP to take his HP to a gunsmith in the first place? Did the pistol malfunction and the GS attributed it to excess grease? If the HP functions fine for the OP, grease or no grease what is the problem? I will wait for the OP's response to clear my confusion.

The OP stated:

He suggested doing some work to smooth the trigger pull because it is somewhat gritty since it has been parkerized. The BHP shoots great and almost no recoil like those more modern plastic ones and it feels great in the hand.

People then suggested that he remove the magazine disconnect to get rid of the gritty feel of the trigger because often the grit that people feel is the disconnector rubbing against the mag.

That prompted Erno86 to claim that you will end up in legal trouble if you remove it. It comes up almost everytime anyone mentions taking the mag disconnect out of a BHP.

Reading the entire thread would have revealed this. LOL

 

[Erno86]

Here are a few quotes from Massad Ayoob, Aug. 6, 2009, post #21- Legal ramifications of mag safety removal

"A search of caselaw databases under topics such as 'magazine disconnector' are unlikely to turn up anything. Caselaw is made of appealed issues. Shootings with modified guns are rare. Moreover, courts tend to leave this sort of argument within the realm of attorney and trial judge discretion.

As noted, because most folks don't remove safety devices from handguns, this rarely comes up. The one case I've consulted on a number of years ago by Mark Seiden, the prominent Miami defense attorney. His client was charged with manslaughter relating to the accidental discharge of a factory stock Colt Commander.

The discharge took place in an office, making the office area a crime scene, including the parking lot. The client's car was searched, and the police recovered a Browning Hi-Power the defendant kept loaded in the vehicle. He had bought it used, the magazine disconnector safety already removed and had left it in that condition.


The assigned prosecutor made a huge deal over this, claiming that it showed a propensity to do reckless and negligent things with loaded weapons, even though that gun was in no way involved in the death in question.

Notice that even though the gun was in that condition when he bought it second hand. The state was prepared to argue that this was no excuse: the man was still using, for defensive purposes presumably, a lethal weapon with a safety device removed.

Mark got the guy a good plea deal, and has ask me to spare his client further humiliation by not mentioning his name. Out of respect to Mark, I've agreed to that stipulation. However, anyone can contact Attorney Mark Seiden in Miami, Fl. and confirm the nature of the case."

 

[WVsig]

Right Erno86 that is the case but if you notice the BHP was not the central issue. The defendant accidentally shooting someone with the Colt Commander was the issue.

Even if we consider this on point that means 1 case. I am not sure we can then make definitive statements about future cases from that one case. We just have one precedent which in my non-legal opinion is not that strong. YMMV

Instead of beating this dead horse how about we both agree to do what we think is best with the BHPs we own.