We'll my experience with the FEG Hungarian copy is not good. Soft internal parts are only surface hardened. Don't even try a trigger job on one as actual browning parts don't fit quite right. I took a loss on one years ago with no regrets selling that POS! Now actual Browning guns are pretty nice but the mag safety and pivoting trigger link on the bottom of the slide is the low point of the design. If you take the mag safety out of the gun the triggers are actually very good but in my humble opinion a 1911 may be a better choice for some people. The trigger on the 1911 is just so much better and parts are everywhere. A hi power trigger can stick to the rear with a cheaper mecgar after market mag that lacks the slick coating of the factory Mark III mags. 1911s and CZs don't have that issue. The slick factory coating also helps a lot with trigger pull. I've got a 40 that's a wonderfully accurate gun without the mag safety which was removed so it's reliable with any mag I have. I bought and an older 9 with target sights last year for $500 in excellent condition that I'm leaving stock as an investment. I would not pay $900+ for a new one when you can get a CZ for $550! I prefer shooting my kimber Target II in 9mm just for fun so decide if you just have to have a "browning" or just want a good 9 to shoot. There are better 9mms for $1000! If you simply want a great 9mm for $550 get a CZ 75B and don't look back!
Browning Hi-Power: Educate me, please
- Thread starter Spats McGee
- Start date
I just had the magazine disconnect removed from my very worn surplus Mk II and quite frankly I can't tell a difference in the quality of the trigger pull. Previously I had judged the trigger in my Mk II to be very similar to that of my new Mk III, but last night it actually felt that the Mk III (with the MDS still intact) was a bit better.
That being said, I really suffer from "trigger insensitivity"... it honestly has to be pretty crappy before I even notice. However, I can tell a big difference between my HPs and say, a SIG 1911 (which I think is a darn good trigger)... just like I can tell a difference from a as-issued K98k from my FN-made Model 70...
Still, I am planning in the future to have both HP triggers re-worked, although I'm on the fence about how much to sink into the surplus Mk II. the Mk III is going to Cylinder and Slide this coming summer, I think... I got on the waiting list in June of last year and was told about a 12 month wait, so I'm just awaiting the notification to send it in. I've actually stopped thinking about a next purchase in favor of doing modifications to what I already have. and I do like the P35, even with a sorry trigger.
That being said, I really suffer from "trigger insensitivity"... it honestly has to be pretty crappy before I even notice. However, I can tell a big difference between my HPs and say, a SIG 1911 (which I think is a darn good trigger)... just like I can tell a difference from a as-issued K98k from my FN-made Model 70...
Still, I am planning in the future to have both HP triggers re-worked, although I'm on the fence about how much to sink into the surplus Mk II. the Mk III is going to Cylinder and Slide this coming summer, I think... I got on the waiting list in June of last year and was told about a 12 month wait, so I'm just awaiting the notification to send it in. I've actually stopped thinking about a next purchase in favor of doing modifications to what I already have. and I do like the P35, even with a sorry trigger.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
rc said:
I felt like I understood the Hi-Power pretty well after owning several and shooting them quite a bit; but that is a new one to me. Can you explain the mechanical process where the magazine finish causes a trigger to stick to the rear?
Mag Disconnect Issues
The factory trigger has a plunger at the rear that the mag needs to depress in order for the link to line up with the transfer bar or whatever it's called in the slide. With the slide off look down into the mag well and you should be able to push the plunger with your finger and see how it affects the push rod link. When the trigger is pulled it pushes up the pivoting bar in the slide that transfers motion back to trip the sear when a mag is installed unless removed. It's a bit more complex and delicate than a 1911 in my opinion but makes room for the fatter magazine in the hi power by transferring motion to the sear over rather than around the magazine. If the plunger is removed the link stays in the firing position when you pull the trigger and the HP will fire with or without a magazine in place during tactical reloads and also have a smoother trigger due to no friction with the front lip of the magazine and extra spring tension of the disconnect plunger. Additionally mags wiii drop free without the mouse trap spring. My mid 90s Mark II in 40 worked fine with the slick factory mags which needed the mouse trap springs to fall free of the gun due to the magazine disconnect. The first time I tried a mecgar mag with standard blue finish and no mouse trap the trigger would stick to the rear and you would have to push it forward or drop the mag. The mag also would not drop free because they are not provided with the mouse trap. Once the mag disconnect was removed, I was able to use $20 magazines reliably and was not limited to the more expensive factory ones.
The factory trigger has a plunger at the rear that the mag needs to depress in order for the link to line up with the transfer bar or whatever it's called in the slide. With the slide off look down into the mag well and you should be able to push the plunger with your finger and see how it affects the push rod link. When the trigger is pulled it pushes up the pivoting bar in the slide that transfers motion back to trip the sear when a mag is installed unless removed. It's a bit more complex and delicate than a 1911 in my opinion but makes room for the fatter magazine in the hi power by transferring motion to the sear over rather than around the magazine. If the plunger is removed the link stays in the firing position when you pull the trigger and the HP will fire with or without a magazine in place during tactical reloads and also have a smoother trigger due to no friction with the front lip of the magazine and extra spring tension of the disconnect plunger. Additionally mags wiii drop free without the mouse trap spring. My mid 90s Mark II in 40 worked fine with the slick factory mags which needed the mouse trap springs to fall free of the gun due to the magazine disconnect. The first time I tried a mecgar mag with standard blue finish and no mouse trap the trigger would stick to the rear and you would have to push it forward or drop the mag. The mag also would not drop free because they are not provided with the mouse trap. Once the mag disconnect was removed, I was able to use $20 magazines reliably and was not limited to the more expensive factory ones.
Great thread! Thanks very much for a bunch of excellent info on BHP.
If I may, I'd like to zoom in on one particular aspect of this conversation. This was sort of touched on in a few places, and I actually heard it mentioned before someplace. But I am still a bit unclear on how and/or why is BHP considered to be outdated and obsolete design? Is it the ergonomics, construction, trigger?
I must admit to being a bit of a closet BHP fan, minus any BHP's as of yet. I would like to pick one up at some point. Probably an older Belgian one.
Just wondering, what exactly is wrong with it? Is it merely a matter of collective opinion or just an abundance of better options?
If I may, I'd like to zoom in on one particular aspect of this conversation. This was sort of touched on in a few places, and I actually heard it mentioned before someplace. But I am still a bit unclear on how and/or why is BHP considered to be outdated and obsolete design? Is it the ergonomics, construction, trigger?
I must admit to being a bit of a closet BHP fan, minus any BHP's as of yet. I would like to pick one up at some point. Probably an older Belgian one.
Just wondering, what exactly is wrong with it? Is it merely a matter of collective opinion or just an abundance of better options?
Personally, I like the older Belgian Hi-Powers. T and C Series. I have a nice example of a C-Series. The trigger is amazing and the slide action is so slick that it feels like it is riding on thousands of tiny ball bearings. I would someday like to obtain a really nice T-Series example, but I can't imagine how it could be any nicer than my C-Series......really more just a collector thing.
Here is a link to an older thread on the FEG clones of the Hi-Power. This includes a side by side comparison with the Hi-Power and links to other sources.
Jerry Paregien, author of a book on the FEG guns pipes in.
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=446348
tipoc
Jerry Paregien, author of a book on the FEG guns pipes in.
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=446348
tipoc
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
rc said:
rc, you gave a passable description of how the magazine disconnect on a Hi-Power works; but you didn't answer my question of how is it mechanically possible for the magazine disconnect to cause the trigger to stick to the rear?
Since you are apparently familiar with how the trigger works (as am I), you can imagine my confusion over that remark. The trigger is returned to position in the Hi-Power by the trigger spring. Which if you'll look down into that frame, as you advised me to do, is located forward of the trigger and has no connection to the magazine disconnect at all.
In fact, with the magazine completely removed, the trigger can still be pulled and the trigger will still return to the forward position. The trigger simply doesn't trip the sear lever because the trigger lever (what you referred to as the 'link") remains in the forward position and cannot trip the sear lever.
I thought maybe you meant the trigger lever wasn't being pushed back; but I'm at a loss as to how the finish would have an effect on that either. And of course, if the trigger lever stuck to the rear, the pistol would work just fine since it would be in position to trip the sear lever.
From tankist,
People will have different opinions of course but I do not think it is outdated or obsolete as a self defense or general purpose handgun. It remains competitive with anything else out there in that regard.
As a military sidearm, which it was designed to be, it has become dated in that it is more expensive to manufacture and maintain than more recently designed firearms. But it is still in use in that capacity in a number of places. Up until 2 years ago it was the standard service sidearm for the British military, a role it played for over 60 years. Cost and ease of maintenance were factors in it's replacement but there was no significant criticism of it's performance. I'm not sure that there is any other handgun, outside of the Soviet and Chinese armies, that has seen more service in more countries, than the Hi-Power.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/can_the_hi_power_still_make_the cut.htm
There are a number of individuals who do not like the BHP. Often this is for reasons that pertain to them, meaning "It doesn't fit me", "I don't like the trigger", "I get hammer bite", "I don't like the magazine safety", three of these four are easily fixable, maybe even all.
The consensus opinion is that the BHP is one of the great guns of the last century and still a wise choice for self defense today if you care for it.
tipoc
People will have different opinions of course but I do not think it is outdated or obsolete as a self defense or general purpose handgun. It remains competitive with anything else out there in that regard.
As a military sidearm, which it was designed to be, it has become dated in that it is more expensive to manufacture and maintain than more recently designed firearms. But it is still in use in that capacity in a number of places. Up until 2 years ago it was the standard service sidearm for the British military, a role it played for over 60 years. Cost and ease of maintenance were factors in it's replacement but there was no significant criticism of it's performance. I'm not sure that there is any other handgun, outside of the Soviet and Chinese armies, that has seen more service in more countries, than the Hi-Power.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/can_the_hi_power_still_make_the cut.htm
There are a number of individuals who do not like the BHP. Often this is for reasons that pertain to them, meaning "It doesn't fit me", "I don't like the trigger", "I get hammer bite", "I don't like the magazine safety", three of these four are easily fixable, maybe even all.
The consensus opinion is that the BHP is one of the great guns of the last century and still a wise choice for self defense today if you care for it.
tipoc
roashooter
Moderator
BHP
All ways enjoy reading BHP threads. Not much to add, but a observation, that has not been talked about.
I was standing in line to sign in at the indoor range I use, and eves dropping a conversation behind me at the sales gun counter.
The man was trying to find a 9mm for his female...(wife/gf/relative) I had no idea. She would find something she didnt like bout each one she was handed.
It was too big....too small...felt wrong...just didnt seem to be comfortable with the choices....Glock/Sig/Colt/Ruger/Beretta/....on and on.
Then from the back corner of the gun case....the sales man pulled out a standard Browning HP...with the block wood grips....she held it...pointed it...said she liked the size and the sights...and the balance...but hated how it felt to hold....put it down...and the two gave up...and saw them go off to their assigned lane to shoot his 1911.
As luck would have it...I was assigned the lane next to them...and I was shooting my BHP that day.
I was aware that she was standing back watching me shoot my BHP, and when a break to reload came, she did ask me if it was a Browning. I said it was, and offered to let her try it. I loaded up 12...had her step to the line, and she showed that she could shoot. When done, she stepped back, asked me why my BHP felt so much better than the new one from the showcase.
I simply said it was a different set of grip panels. You could almost see the light bulb come on.
As I was leaving, I saw the two going through the paper work, for her new Browning HP, that a grip panel change solved, her only complaint about the BHP..
Some times its just that simple...
All ways enjoy reading BHP threads. Not much to add, but a observation, that has not been talked about.
I was standing in line to sign in at the indoor range I use, and eves dropping a conversation behind me at the sales gun counter.
The man was trying to find a 9mm for his female...(wife/gf/relative) I had no idea. She would find something she didnt like bout each one she was handed.
It was too big....too small...felt wrong...just didnt seem to be comfortable with the choices....Glock/Sig/Colt/Ruger/Beretta/....on and on.
Then from the back corner of the gun case....the sales man pulled out a standard Browning HP...with the block wood grips....she held it...pointed it...said she liked the size and the sights...and the balance...but hated how it felt to hold....put it down...and the two gave up...and saw them go off to their assigned lane to shoot his 1911.
As luck would have it...I was assigned the lane next to them...and I was shooting my BHP that day.
I was aware that she was standing back watching me shoot my BHP, and when a break to reload came, she did ask me if it was a Browning. I said it was, and offered to let her try it. I loaded up 12...had her step to the line, and she showed that she could shoot. When done, she stepped back, asked me why my BHP felt so much better than the new one from the showcase.
I simply said it was a different set of grip panels. You could almost see the light bulb come on.
As I was leaving, I saw the two going through the paper work, for her new Browning HP, that a grip panel change solved, her only complaint about the BHP..
Some times its just that simple...
Roashooter, You are quite correct with your observation that the grips on a High Power can make all the difference. Most of the wooden panels are much too thick even thicker than factory units which in themselves are not thin. I think the problem is most producers who attempt thinner panels encounter splitting due to the undercut portions and warpage of thin material.
Altamont makes grips for many new manufacturers and the retail trade, they make beautiful grips but the standard HP grip is blocky compared to factory and their thin product often does not fit flush because they appear to be slightly warped or the grip screw places enough pressure on the back end it allows the front to pull away from the frame.
I dislike the various rubber grips but with a HP sometimes it is the easiest way to master the hold on this pistol.
Altamont makes grips for many new manufacturers and the retail trade, they make beautiful grips but the standard HP grip is blocky compared to factory and their thin product often does not fit flush because they appear to be slightly warped or the grip screw places enough pressure on the back end it allows the front to pull away from the frame.
I dislike the various rubber grips but with a HP sometimes it is the easiest way to master the hold on this pistol.
A friend of mine (actually a lawyer by trade but i like him anyway) visits from California when the pressure gets to great and he needs a dose of sanity. On this trip he brought me a Browning High Power Captain (made 1993 with cast frame) which has a blue job comparable to the old Colt Royal blue ( super high polish) and of course tangent sight. Still in the box although not an unfired pistol, 99.9% overall condition. I am anxious to get out and fire this new beauty, i have a thing over tangent sights my only other is a first year of production Belgian army issue in 90% condition that i am hesitant to shoot anymore.
The Captain will not be a safe queen as i forsee it gobbling a great deal of 9 mm. Sorry no photos as ii am not very computer savy .
The Captain will not be a safe queen as i forsee it gobbling a great deal of 9 mm. Sorry no photos as ii am not very computer savy .
The Browning Hi Power was my first center fire pistol that I bought for myself. A beautiful, blued MK III which I still have. I did a lot of research back then when I was going to buy a pistol, and that is the one that kept popping up. Later, in 1994 I saw a beautiful Silver Chrome factory model MK III so I also have that one. They are accurate, reliable, and beautiful pistols.
larryh1108
New member
If you like a thinner grip, Alumagrip made a very nice aluminum set for the BHP. I don't know if they do any more but they were/are fantastic. Very thin and very sturdy. They will never break.
There are many options for grips on a hi-power in a wide variety of materials. The BHP is one of the thinnest double stack 9s made.
Craig Spegel makes some of the best thin grips around (I've not seen any crack due to use). There are many pictures of the same here...
http://www.handgunsandammunition.co.../10950-spegel-grips-hi-power-lots-photos.html
tipoc
Craig Spegel makes some of the best thin grips around (I've not seen any crack due to use). There are many pictures of the same here...
http://www.handgunsandammunition.co.../10950-spegel-grips-hi-power-lots-photos.html
tipoc
There are several alternatives for thin grips: The thinnest are the Navidrex Micartas which can be found at Brownells. The prettiest are Spegels but they have an ever so slight palm swell. Hogues surprised me and I like them more than I thought I would. The most tactical might be the Uncle Mikes which are tacky and stick in the hand well.
Navidrex on this Stock Practical:
Craig Spegels on this AP Cogan Custom BHP & Don Williams Custom:
Discontinued Spegel Designed Uncle Mikes: Buds has some old new stock on ebay and on their site.
Houge wood shown on this Garthwaite Custom BHP:
Navidrex on this Stock Practical:
Craig Spegels on this AP Cogan Custom BHP & Don Williams Custom:
Discontinued Spegel Designed Uncle Mikes: Buds has some old new stock on ebay and on their site.
Houge wood shown on this Garthwaite Custom BHP:
