bring enough gun !!

JerryM said:
If one were hunting at a time when game was plentiful, seasons long, and hunters few he might use less than adequate cartridges.
However, the conditions today are much different, and during a hunt a person might get one chance under less than perfect conditions. In addition, no one is so good that they can always place the shot perfectly under field conditions.
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Well, I suppose it depends on what and where you're hunting. I have a friend who spends up to 1 month at a time in Colorado (the entire bow season) hunting elk. (He does it with a 47 pound draw bow too) 4 weeks is a lot of hunting.

Here in NY, I start deer hunting with a bow in mid-october and the season ends around December 20th. That's 2 months and a week of hunting. Between me and 2 other guys, we might shoot 9 deer in a bad year, 12-15 in a good one and we'll see a few dozen more.

A once-in-a-lifetime sheep hunt is one thing. "Hunting" is quite another.

Besides which, very few people actually hunt with "marginal" calibers. It's the PERCEPTION of inadequacy far more often than the reality.

Used to be that the 30-06 was practically a "magnum" cartridge. Now, it appears to be barely adequate for medium sized deer. I don't think it's the deer or the cartridge that's changed.
 
If one were hunting at a time when game was plentiful, seasons long, and hunters few he might use less than adequate cartridges.
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Because game is plentiful is an excuse to use an inadequate cartridge?

???

"There's lots of deer, so it's OK to wound a few, and not recover them..... never mind that they will takes weeks to die......"

Besides which, very few people actually hunt with "marginal" calibers.
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....Dunno .... I have seen more than one "moonscoped" AR in western NE during deer season ..... maybe that's just my perception, though ......;)
 
jimbob86, back when game was more plentiful, the critters were much less wary. At least, that's what I gather from writings from the 1800s. I guess that less wary = equals an easier approach to get within range of what we now consider marginal cartridges.

But my last mule deer was at maybe 25 yards, and I felt halfway guilty at using my '06. Shoulda been carrying a pistol. :D
 
JimBob86 said:
....Dunno .... I have seen more than one "moonscoped" AR in western NE during deer season ..... maybe that's just my perception, though ......
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I believe it IS a matter of perception.

For instance, I don't know many people who would proclaim a 357mag with a 10" barrel to be a marginal deer gun. It produces 1590fps with a 158gr slug for 887 ft/lbs.

The "mighty" 44mag with a 10 inch barrel produces right around 1200 ft/lbs.

A 223 with 55gr SPs can do 3,350fps from a 24" barrel, 1370ft/lbs, 20" barrel might be 3150, 1212 ft/lbs.

Now, that 223 only has about 1/2 the momentum of the 44mag at the muzzle but the sectional density is pretty close.

No doubt that 44mag load is going to blow right out the other side at any reasonable distance.... wasted energy.

Actually, I'd be surprised if the 223 didn't exit also, if you used a proper big game bullet at reasonable ranges but more of it's energy will be used IN the animal rather than the tree on the other side.

Also, keep in mind that while the 44mag and 223 are about equal at the muzzle, the 44 loses it's energy MUCH faster. By the time it's at 100 yards, the 44 is down to 825 ft/lbs, the 223 still at 1035.
 
For instance, I don't know many people who would proclaim a 357mag with a 10" barrel to be a marginal deer gun. It produces 1590fps with a 158gr slug for 887 ft/lbs.
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I am not many, but I'm one.

A .357 is a handgun round. All handgun rounds are underpowered, or they would require a stock to hold onto properly......

For western Nebraska, unless the shooter will discipline himself to keep all shots really short, then most pistols/revolvers or even carbines chambered for pistol cartridges are just not enough gun. True, I'm sure there are hot loaded .357's that out of a rifle barrel will rival a .30/30 ..... they still don't hold a candle to an honest to goodness hi-powered rifle......
 
But my last mule deer was at maybe 25 yards, and I felt halfway guilty at using my '06. Shoulda been carrying a pistol.
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- Art

I'm sure the -06 worked just fine.

"In all things important, Happiness is having enough."
 
True enough.

Still, all cartridges have an effective range for any given task.

In terms of deer, that range is undoubtedly much less with a handgun that a 223 and much less for a 223 than most other rifles.

But, the general stance of the cartridge being "adequate" or "marginal" is a matter of assumptions. My assumptions are based on my own personal behavior because that's all I can guarantee. I would limit myself to appropriate ranges for whatever the cartridge might be. As such, there are very few "inadequate" or "marginal" cartridges.

I would (do), in most cases, choose a cartridge that WASN'T the limiting factor in my hunting but sometimes I don't. My 15" Encore Pro Hunter in 7mm-08 limits me to 100 yards or so in most cases, not because of the cartridge but because it's hard to aim.

The button buck that dropped where he stood at 40 yards would not argue the gun was marginal though.;)
 
I would rather see someone use a huge caliber and put um down clean and quick, than try to "out shoot" their gun, their is a family down here that shot 5 deer this year and didn't recover them (my friend and I found them), they didn't bother tracking them because if you don't see it go down you couldn't have hit it, I'm not sure wat caliber they were using, probly something in the 270 range, they take every shot they can, doesn't matter if the deer are running 200 yards up threw the pines and brush and the winds blowin 30 open fire, a .270 at 200 yards would be enough gun for a white tail but not with the menatlity people like this have... gives me a sick feeling
 
I'd have no problem shooting an elk with a 243Win. BUT I would use the toughest bullet I could find. A bonded or monolithic bullet would work fine.

But as a handloader you learn about different bullet constructions. Most guys don't handload so they just use whatever comes in the box and many times it is the wrong bullet for the application.

Then again their are handloaders shooting at tough as nail pigs with varmint bullets:rolleyes:
 
A few months ago one of my neighbors was bragging about shooting a deer with a .22LR. I told him that .22LR isn't enough gun for deer. He said that's all he had at the moment. He said he shot it behind the ear and it went down immediately. (see the last sentence in next paragraph) I asked if he harvested the meat and he said yes... but only the backstraps and fed the rest to the dogs.

This is the same guy who bragged about shooting a feral pig with a 20ga. He said the pig ran off. I guess he saw some discomfort in my expression so he said he finished it off with a shot to the head. I asked if he intended to harvest the meat. He said he gave it to a neighbor who'll butcher and eat it. The following week the pig was back and he showed me the scar where he shot the thing... about mid-torso maybe three inches below the spine. BTW, I do agree that killing feral pigs just to be rid of them as an invasive species is fine. This is about how it was shot, not why... and it's about being truthful. This guy, a very nice guy otherwise BTW, gives me no reason to believe anything he says regarding his hunting ethics.

Some people just don't care about humane kills nor limiting kills to harvesting the meat or dealing with pest issues. These people will always use inadequate calibers if that's what's in their hands and they won't hesitate to shoot even with inadequate aim. I'll never understand that mentality.
 
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There is a lot of difference between hunting deer with a .22LR and hunting them with a Muzzloader. Almost any cartridge does have an effective range, some may be measured in feet others in hundreds of yards. I think the crux of the argument goes back to carrying say a 7mm-08 Rem instead of a .300 Win mag on an antelope hunt. Regardless of what you choose to hunt with, bow, ML, pistol, stardard round, or belted magnum, as long as you know its capabilities and much more importantly YOUR capabilities and stay within them then it will work. I would much rather see someone take a plain jane old .270 he had uses so much it had the finish worn off than a brand new 30-378 Wthby that they hadn't shot enough for it to become second nature. Bad shots are bad shots regardless of the round used. Lots of game animals lost to poor bullet placement than poor choice of caliber/cartridge. A deer gut shot with a .300 Win mag will run off just as a deer gut shot with a .30-30 Win. Knowing when to NOT take a shot is just as important as taking the shot. I really don't think anyone is advocating use inadequate rounds for hunting, just saying you don't have to max out the firepower if you don't wish to.
 
I use a .243 with 100 grain lead tipped bullets to hunt white tail. It's the smallest caliber I like to hunt with. For larger animals, which I've never hunted such as bear, I'd want something stronger like a .45-70 in my hands. My .243 has served me well and is a very accurate rifle. I'm comfortable with shooting deer up to around 300 yards with it, I've shot further too. But I do agree with the op to an extent, how many have shot a deer only to find it be full of .22 bullets or birdshot, or atleast have heard someone this has happened to? It's very dumb and happens a lot. Its been said that half of the deer killed in WV have been killed with .22s and that's probably right unfortunately. Many people poach around here so they want to be quiet, a .22 rifle works great for them. But not all of them are head shots and a few of those head shots arent kill shots. It frustrates me to hear about deer filled withbullet holes after a real hunter has took much of his time to hunt the deer and it's now wasted because of some idiot can't hunt and used a spotlight and a .22 rifle and only wounded the deer.
But other than the obvious, I don't think there are any minimum for deer. Anything stronger than .22lr is ok in my book for white tail. I know a guy that uses 7.62x39 and is good with it at 100 yards, with the original military sights. Me, I prefer a .243, a .243 mag specifically. They do make .243 shorts believe it or not. I'm also going to be using a 45-70 with open sights on the rainy and foggy days next season. And I'm wanting to start turkey hunting, I plan on using a Marlin Goosegun 12 gauge, that has a 3 foot barrel and a full choke. That should be plenty.
 
I believe rifles such as 30-30s are viewed a suffiecient on elk and larger game by some because thats wat our grandfathers and other ancestors used but let's not forget most times a family was very wealthy to have just one good rifle, they didn't buy a deer gun, bear gun, elk gun ect. They bought one gun an used it for everything and buy using it for everything they knew the rifle inside and out, they also more than likely didn't have money for a scope to top it and the scopes of the times were often never used because of fogging issues, let's face it with open sights anything past a hundred yards was completly covered when sighted with iron sights, thus giving a good refference, if you cant see the animal when you put the sights on it because the sights cover it the animal is to far, this also kept shots closer, Keeping velocity and knock down power up
 
Hey West Virginia Gunner,

Been hunting deer there for over 20 years. A few years back I found a dead deer on Thanksgiving day down in a swamp. I figure it was hit the first day. I did not want to roll it around to see where it was hit because it was hot and fly blown. I saw a white spot on the base of one antler and looked closer. It was a small flaked area around a hole about .277-.284 big. (Soft points go through woody-like stuff like a wood pecker). I took a picture of it but don't use a computer enough to get it on here. Picture an 8 point rack heavy enough to have a bullet hole through the center of it. Anyway, just about any .270 or 7mm is a hefty round, but there lay a dead wasted deer. I don't doubt somebody just emptied out their rifle on a deer running away from them. I have shot doe with front legs missing (Some healed over), a buck with a back leg missing, one with a hole in the ear, gut shot, and various other gun related ailments. I don't ever remember running into a hunter with less than a .243 on the mountain I hunt in Pa., even though a .17 center fire is legal for deer.
 
Yep, that's the thing. Every story of legally shot deer that are gut/leg/antler/ear/face shot always seems to include fairly substantial cartridges.

It's not about the gun. It's about the person behind it.

I have only once shot a deer twice with a gun. That time was because he had a broken leg from being hit by a car and stumbled going over a log just as the shot went off.

I have wounded 3, all with a 12ga using slugs that produce either 1750 or 2500 ft/lbs energy and all at ranges under 75 yards.

It wasn't the gun that was inadequate.

2 of the 3 "should" have been good shots and I'll never know what I did wrong. The other was accidental, a deer I didn't see behind the one I meant to shoot.

Point being, it's "I'll never know what *I* did wrong." It wasn't the guns fault and it rarely is the guns fault.
 
jimbob86 said:
Anybody got an idea what that might be? 6mmBR?
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Well, it's an odd way of referring to it, as a "243 short" as it's not the same relationship as a 22 long and short, for instance, but there is both the 243 Winchester Short Mag and Winchester Super Short Mag.

The later of which is an incredible but unfortunately "factory dead" cartridge. It will push a 55gr bullet almost 4,200 fps.

I'm looking for one now if anybody has one to get rid of... I've got a 270wsm for trade. ;)
 
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