Breaking & Entering by LEO

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FUD:
Glenn, I don't think that anyone is suggesting resisting a police raid whether mistaken or not -- at least I'm not suggesting that.
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I recommend resistance. If the attackers go so far as to flash-bang my home, why would I trust them any further than my front sight? Moreover, I stand by my comments on the need to deter the subsequent efforts of that ilk.

Of course, if it is murder they wanted, kicking in the doors is excessive...most supurban homes can be ventilated through and through with a single .30bmg...or burned. I am not sure that "dynamic entries" are quite murder the same way that Dachau originally was not a "death camp", merely a holding place. Pity the line between those two is so thin...
 
Oleg, I don't think that "murder" would be the original reason; robbery would be -- however, death or serious injury to the home owners would be a secondary by-product.
 
I was talking about the cops, actually :(

The reality of such a break in would be that the defender's only chance would be to get to a rifle and point it at the single point of entry (doesn't work that well if the attack can proceed from several directions) and try to barricade the doorway with corpses. That is one situation in which an .308 with a 20rd magazine would shine...weight isn't an issue, penetration of perps even through cover is.

Anyone care to guess what % of TFLers keep such rifles within reach at night?
 
I've got an AR-10 (.308 caliber with a 10 round mag) in my safe -- although I would have to leave my bedroom to get it. :(
 
Nice post gusgus. Way to go in trying to deal with those cranial cob webs that reside in some so called cops heads. I don't like that kind of person, they are kidding themselves with that eletist crap-ola. Sooner or later tyrants wind up on the dung heap like all those who have been down that road before them. Too bad a lot of innocent citizens will have to die before they are stopped.

Oleg. What do you think about claymores set in thick half round shields that point down the entry hallways...operating on timers set by home owner. A bit dangerous for the occupants, but a little training would be in order for the household.
 
This thread isn't really going anywhere any more. I do the that the biggest problem is the willingness of *some* LEOs to bust in over a $5 tax or an equally trivial matter. Then again, why should I expect US agencies to be any less heavy-handed than their Russian or Mexican colleagues...

What can we do about it without getting killed int he process remains unclear.

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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
Fud Amigo!

It seems indeed that your post has grown a bit form your early intentions.

I sleep with a loaded gun inches from my head, of course I would(and have) reacted to nioses by grabbing my pistola and searching for the cause of the disturbance.

As for a bad Guy dynamic entry..I think this sort of thing will grow because it works. BG'S playing cop is nothing new, now they just do what is done on television shows like "cops"... Let's face it men we live in a guilded cage...and the noose is tightening...

Personaly I do not fear a swat team or any thig like that happenning to me. But my area is surrounded by the "hood". So in short I have prepared accordingly. If perchance I KNEW FOR SURE it was the cops I would NOT resist..scince I have no crimminal history I think a "no knock" warrent would be unlikely. Given that I would concider an intruder who yelled "police" to be a fraud.
 
In the given situation I seriously doubt that I would survive the incident. Unless I was 100% sure that the team were LEO's I would open fire. If they were LEO's I would be cut down by a hail of bullets form unregistered and untaxed machine guns. If they are gangbangers they might flee or they might cut me down in a hail of bullets. In both cases I am dead and hope that I have bought my wife enough time to get out of the house through a window. If she does indeed get out of the house then part of my job, to protect my family from harm with my own life if necessary, is complete. Outdated philosophy, maybe. My wife and I have an understanding: If someone has broken into the house we get the F out. We have windows in the bedrooms and they will be used. I have no intention of clearing my own home. It is heavily insured and chances are I could get better/newer stuff with the insurance $$ than I have now. Also it is much easier to set up an ambush from the outside than the inside, where I have both cover and maneuoverability at my disposal. If they are cops they will arrest us as we are coming out of the window. If they are crooks they will probaly loot the house and try to get out.

On a completely different note. Isnt it great to see how effectively our unbiased media has managed to drive a stake between us and the LEO's. Think about it. I have been in the USA for over 20 years. Lived in some crappy neighborhoods and some nice neighborhoods. Never have I seen, heard or semlled a raid. Yet I turn on the TV, read the paper... and I see mentions of raids, ineptness, abuse ...repeatedly. Same goes for gun violence. The media takes a few cases and blows them out of proportion. We always catch on to the fact the they are putting spin on the gun violence news to help with an agenda, but rarely do we come up with the same conclusion for the SWAT, no-knock BS. I am not saying that no knocks are a great idea, cause personally they remind me of the midnight door knocks under Ceausescu in Romaina. Nor am I saying that the LEO abuses dont happen. Just that we are lead to believe that they happen with such frequency and ferocity that we should distrust all LEO's. Think of the parallels. Distrust all guns and gunowners cause they are all plotting to shoot up our schools; and distrust all LEO's cause they are all JBT's on a killing spree.

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"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes."
-R.A. Heinlein
 
On Claymores or any other defense: while we might argue about specific ways of defeating agents of the state, the long-term survival is still problematic.

The way Mafia and governments operate is by initiating the conflict and by keeping some force in reserve. We may well be ABLE to destroy an enforcer or two, but another enforce that we have never met would then kill us or our kids while we try to get on with our lives. There is no way to win short of eliminating the command and control of such enterprises. However, it is sometimes possible to escape and lay low for awhile...that's what my rifles are for, a stop-gap measure to enable me to either run or, at least, require so many enforcers to handle on person that someone else might go unmolested...

If and when a war starts, I would expect explosives to be far more effective than guns...they do not require the operators' presence and thus do not make retaliation quite as easy. Guns are, primarily, self-defense tools...other means take the war to the enemy.

Given that I would be horrified at the prospect of being part of an armed conflict, I can only hope that this mess gets sorted out before frags start flying.

PS: Taz,

It depends on where you live. In Minneapolis, the area where I wnet to college has had at least one such raid each month and, this year, at least one was aimed at the wrong house. Moreover, the "right" raids ought not be started over a trivial tax issue.
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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA

[This message has been edited by Oleg Volk (edited June 16, 2000).]
 
Gusgus, I don't think some of these folks are ever going to get it.

Fud states the problem well.

Glenn, the proportion of 'fake' no-knocks (by BG's) to 'real' no-knocks by LEO's doesn't matter. The cat is out of the bag ... these things have happened, so civilians are on notice that those guys coming through the door may not be cops. What do you want us to do ... get concerned only when the BG's have a majority?

And, staying in the safe room is fine, if you don't have kids. Glenn, if my front door is being beaten down, I'm not going to let my kids face the beast without me. I'll be racing for the top of the stairs with an 870 or an AR, and my job will be to prevent anyone from coming up those stairs.

People like you are not thinking this through from the standpoint of a homeowner. We know this will happen quickly, and brutally ... whether it is BG's or LEO's. Put yourself in our shoes, and think it through. You and your profession have given us lousy options, and then you beat your chest and think that will straighten us out.

'It's the no-knock policy!' Not occasional mistakes.

I've got to believe that some LEO's realize this as well. I sure wish they'd start speaking up. How many people have to die so you guys can prevent small amounts of evidence from being flushed?

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited June 16, 2000).]
 
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