Breaking & Entering by LEO

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CR Sam shaped the electrons to say: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Problem is some bad guys come in hard and fast, wearing black n tough, loot, kill the witnesses and/or defenders and split. Seems to be more of this in upscale neighborhoods.[/quote]

There seems to be darn little of it in Georgia, thankfully. Maybe it's because people are more likely to be armed here than in, say, PRK, where I perceive this sort of thing to be more common.

On the overall topic, I offer this without further comment:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. [/quote]
 
This has happened in Phoenix, AZ. BG's come in by kicking down or beating on the front door, yelling 'Police!'. Once in, they rob and kill, execution style.

Not exactly a daily event, but it has happened enough that only a fool would ignore this possibility.

I have the same concern. So, knowing this, it leaves lousy options for a homeowner and father who wants to defend his own family.

And, you know who I blame? LEO's who support no-knock tactics. Those guys have done a great job of damaging relationships with the civilians you were sworn to serve and protect. Of course, just by saying this, it becomes 'cop bashing', I know. Myopic.

Regards from AZ
 
Really strange that some cops on this thread refer to us citizens as cop haters, and that we teach our kids to be cop haters. That as civilians we haven't got a friggin chance in hell of going up against the "dynamic entry team" (I hate that terminology) Its the murdering goon squad no matter what you call it. He says...ha, ha, ha, try it. Nice again to see the mindless chest pounding of some. Well, most of us arn't going to start digging our holes in the ground just yet from this bubba talk. In fact we arn't going to consider that kind of crap mainstream police attitude...just a few are thinking they are superior to the citizens because they have the guns and the tried and proven terror strike method to overwhelm the poor snook asleep with his family, dog or cat. Oh yeah, killer...I'm really impressed with your BA attitude. You're what's wrong with this country, you and the freaken clowns in DC.
Donny once ran a photo in another thread, it showed soldiers on the left as a firing squad, and civilians on the right kneeling before an open trench grave. The superior fire power was killing them execution style.
Donny titled the ones on the left as "troops obeying orders. And the ones on the right as civilians obeying gun laws. Thus we have the dynamic firing squad team doing their thing.
God help us poor dumb bastards against that happening in the USA.
 
Fine, James. Do me a favor and DON't CALL US when you have a problem, since you know far better how to handle everything.
You seem to want the Wild West, complete with showdowns in the street. And I KNOW that you have probably NEVER seen a body, at least by the way you talk. Self defense, yes. Shooting what you want for pleasure, yes. Complaining because you don't get everything the Police get, no. Have you ever made a mistake at work, or maybe caused a bad traffic accident? No system is perfect, but it doesn't get any better from simply being attacked. CONTRIBUTE TO A SOLUTION!!!! Get involved in a political party (Republicans). Make them work for you. Change laws you don't like. DON'T DESTROY THE SYSTEM. FIX IT.
If we choose to live in a society, we have a certain responsibility to live within the rules set by that society. If you don't like it, change it the right way or leave.

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I don't CARE about pretty....I just want dangerous.
 
I really can't see the likelihood of having to resist a dynamic entry. If I were intent on doing so, I think the only true defense is a flame thrower. It is THE most effective close range assault weapon, guaranteed to defeat even Class 3 armor. Unfortunately, it would be hellish on the house itself, so you would have to take the shot so that most of the flame washes over the invaders and out the front door.

I've been researching flame throwers quite a bit but can't seem to find a good web site. Best of all, I think they are perfectly legal to own.
 
Nyterunner, I am by no means anti-LEO, I have several friends that are cops and a few relatives that were. But where does this idea come from "don't call us when you need help?"
When the hell COULD a cop help me? AFTER my car has been stolen? AFTER my house has been robbed? AFTER I am mugged?
Nyterunner, get real...cops don't and CAN'T protect us. They are there to clean up the mess and if they get lucky, catch the bad guys after the fact.
And don't give me that Wild West BS...you sound like an anti with that stuff. Individual responsibility is the keystone of our country, and lack of it is what is causing our decline. I would NEVER advise anyone to depend on the police for protection...unless I really disliked that person.
And you have to admit it's true. You can't be there to protect me, which means I HAVE to protect myself. Or else just surrender and be a victim. Should I do that?
 
Night runner going off half cocked per usual, I was wondering when you were going to show up on this one. All I had to do was mention BA and here your are, welcome. Lets put the shoe on the other foot for awhile. Suppose a bunch of BA civilians decided to get together for a flash bang at your PD late some night, I'm not talking about used up old farts like me, but real BA dudes who are ex military and even some ex fed and other police agencies. Ones who know how to get the job done. Not all cops, civilians, nor military people support your views on wronful entry operations. And wrongful are the ones I have repeatedly spoken of herewith. You don't think people could muster enough force to overtake a PD station, not that I would ever condone such a thing, but it shows the ludicrous implications of forced entry procedures. This is a tactic that is used in war. Are we civilians at war with some of you guys. I'm not, but I don't like forced entry in any shape or form. I'm talking innocent civilians...I'm not talking criminal people. Does that reach you at all. I really doubt it...and I'm not going to make a career of stating this...so, that's it bubba, no more chit-chat on that topic. It's up to someone else if they want to carry the ball any further. Its getting tiresome trying to communicate with those that don't want to listen...have at it bubba.

James
 
nyterunner;
If I make a mistake that kills someone or cause a traffic accident that kills someone I will be in jail and pay for my mistake.Everthing from manslater charges to murder one.How many LEO's that have made the mistake of the werong house and killed someone that was innocent have been charged for any of these crimes.All most people ask is for equal treatment and justice for all.Before you start with walk a mile in our shoes bit try walking a mile in our shoes.THis is not LEO bashing in any way shape or form just asking for equality under the law as it should be.

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beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain
 
The system just needs cleaning, not disposal.

Beat, bike, motor or car cop. Definate deterrent to crime by making their presence known. Beat cop who knows the ol farts and kids along with the others who belong in the area is often welcomed by most as a respected friend.

When the only police visable are the ones doin 50 in the 25 zone or punchin in doors to get a baggie of pot: Then the uniform has lost respect.

It was inferred that James E was not qualified to speak his feelings because his body sightings were insufficient to make him worthy. Not applicable but he has seen that and far worse.

There are weeds in the patch who are protected by the law and their peers. The peer who looks the other way is equally guilty by his silence.

Interesting that on the left coast we had the all black with hoods n protection usin select fire main battle rifles who were the gangers; long before the special weapons and tactical law people started dressing and acting that way.



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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
Love it or leave it, eh Nyterunner? Gee, you're getting me all misty eyed over here, remembering the tortured logic of that attitude from the 60's.

Many of us are involved, and working inside and outside of political parties. But, we're still in the minority. Most people continue to buy the crap you guys sell about needing 'no-knocks' ... kinda makes you wonder if those true believers are in a drug-induced haze, eh? ;)

Here's the bottom line buddy ... you can complain all you want about civilians not knowing how bad you have it, and how 'mistakes' happen. Fair enough ... most civilians don't know how tough your jobs are, and they often expect perfection. But, it's the no-knock policy that is the problem! The policy sucks. It is simply a bad idea who's time has come and should be gone. Get over it. It kills innocent people (LEO's and civilians), damages your relationship with your communities, and it is too often an application of force out of all proportion to the crime.

And, now you have professional criminals imitating your tactics. Doesn't that begin to make you wonder? The BG's and LEO's are using the same tactics, and civilians can no longer be sure who's knocking. There would be no forgiveness in my heart if one of my loved ones was ever killed in such a situation. None whatsoever.

On a lighter note, have you read Hillary Clinton's latest book? 'It Takes a SWAT Team'?

Regards from AZ
 
I think if an anti read this thread they would love it, the pro RKBA LEOs and the pro RKBA citizens arguing again.

I have been an LEO for 11 years in two seperate jurisdictions, I am currently on a warrant apprehension team, and I have never been involved in a no knock warrant or even heard of one being used. This makes me think that no knocks are not nearly as common as some people think they are. In California, getting a no knock warrant is not an easy thing to get.

Lets face it, LEOs are humans like everyone else so mistakes will be made. One way to help this problem is to figure out what we need to do to help minimize the mistakes. There are some problems that I believe that are contributing to the mistakes: LEOs are spread very thin and extremely overworked in most communities which brings up a fatigue factor which equals not checking things out throroughly, LEOs are stressed out for various reasons (have you seen our divorce rates lately?), the job itself begins to eat away at a person after a while (we see how people are suffering out there), police administrations wanting results (arrests, etc), I could go on forever with this list. Some of the things I mentioned above are easy to fix, but it will never happen because it is unpopular or it takes money. Basically law enforcement administrations gamble with our lives as well as yours.

Contrary to what some people on TFL believe, local LEOs are held to a higher standard than the average citizen when it comes to force. For example, if the feds don't like what happens in state courts they just take LEOs to federal court and get the verdict they want (I this is part of their attempt at federalizing local LEOs). Most LEOs I know are terrified to use force because of reprecussions regardless if the force was justified.

In summary, we need to work together to solve our problems. If we don't the rift between LEOs and citizens will just grow and I think local law enforcement will be fedralized.

I think I'll stop rambling now.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Keystone:
I really can't see the likelihood of having to resist a dynamic entry. If I were intent on doing so, I think the only true defense is a flame thrower. It is THE most effective close range assault weapon, guaranteed to defeat even Class 3 armor. Unfortunately, it would be hellish on the house itself, so you would have to take the shot so that most of the flame washes over the invaders and out the front door.

I've been researching flame throwers quite a bit but can't seem to find a good web site. Best of all, I think they are perfectly legal to own.[/quote] a south african has developed anti-carjacking device that would be waayyy
cool he--hee! for those mid eve roast you can seach at APB .COM OR CNN.COM has a vidio link. akabu
 
Rat, it's probably true that most LEO's wouldn't consider using excessive force. The problem we civvies see is that those that DO use force on the wrong target apparently face no sanctions whatever. I concur with the poster who said that 90% of the problems of perception we RKBA types have with the BAD LEO's (they do exist, don't they Mr. Horiuchi?) is the no-knock raid.

We have a legal system, once a defendent makes it TO that system, that assumes that it's better for 100 guilty men go free than for 1 innocent to be punished. How does that square with the no-knock? If the incrimating evidence can be flushed down the drain in the period of time it takes to inform the occupants of their rights, show the warrant, etc. then the quantity of contraband PROBABLY didn't warrant the raid, anyway.

Before someone beats me to it, I can stipulate that such raids are appropriate in trying to head off a "weapons of mass destruction" attack or some such. Ain't been none of them hit the news around here.

Can anyone point me to specific instances of the bad guys impersonating a SWAT raid?
 
My decisions are based on best probable outcomes and not ideological horsepoop.

Resisting a competent raid is not standing up for the RKBA. It's in fact, it's evidence for Darwinian selection

Give me the comparative figures for:

a. fake raids vs. real raids - the only real issue.
b. the outcomes for resisting a mistaken raid
vs. not resisting a mistaken raid
c. The odds that when you shoot one, the
rest flee and don't shoot you

If you do shoot an officer, expect financial and social consequences that will probably destroy your life - if you aren't dead.

To answer, the original question:

1. The police will claim they identified themselves.
2. They will charge you.
3. You will have to spend every cent to defend yourself
4. Your neighbors and coworkers will change in their attitudes towards you
5. Your family life will be disrupted and
all of you go through even more trauma than just surviving the mistake raid.
6. You might try a civil suit that will disrupt your life for years. Given you shot one - you might be sued back.

The only question is whether or not it is a real raid or false?

As far as offering armed resistance - study military theory. You use force to achieve a goal, not to stroke your gonads. What is your goal? Shoot a cop for the RKBA? Stupid.

As far as the tactical issue - How about this?

You hear the break-in.
You gather in the safe room.
You deploy your weapons.
Your partner triggers the alarm which sounds
sirens, flashes lights and calls the cops.
Your partner also calls on the cell phone to
911.

You yell through the door - assuming that you haven't already been flashbanged and swarmed - that you are armed and the police are on the way.

Will a fake raid continue?

If it is the police, maybe you have time to talk?

These threads usually go:

Emotion and not evaluation
Cojones and not Cognition
Balls but not brains

How many of you have actually practiced resisting a raid by several armed folks in body armor with MP-5s or the like?

I've practiced resisting just a couple of
folk with handguns. You die a lot.

By yourself in your PJs?




[This message has been edited by Glenn E. Meyer (edited June 16, 2000).]
 
Glenn, as long as you expound that hateful scare tactic dribble, you are only hurting fellow officers that don't hate the common civilian folks. I am of the opinion your type of cop is sadly lacking in humility and trust of his fellow man. You've thrown a blanket over all of us...good or bad... typical tunnel vision of a disturbed personality. You would of gone far in the 1930s and 40s, until we sent a collective bunch of ass kickers to end that world war. Is this what you want another confrontation with innocent lives. Rave on how bad you are going to do us poor bastards in. Your fellow officers must be really proud...don't hear many saying your out of line with your terror rhetoric. Does anyone remember the LA riots. People were being hurt bad by the mobs, cops wouldn't go near that area while the populist was going nuts. Don't blame them, but they don't mind ganging up for a slam bam on some innocent citizen's home. The odds are in their favor. That's all, and I mean it this time.
 
Glenn;

nice post.

And I *have* done many drills of this type, though not down to the point you descibe, but
more along the line of working with SRT folks in the military and trying to give them a good ride.

As a result of this training, I kinda stay out of these threads. Some people really do
kid themselves, on both sides of the discussion.

To the LEOs out there, don't forget to look up.
 
I've said it before, and I'll scream it again. NO US CITIZEN SHOULD HAVE TO DISCERN WEATHER THE MASKED, BLACK CLAD INTRUDERS BREAKING DOWN HIS/HER FRONT DOOR ARE BAD GUYS OR LAW ENFORCEMENT!@!@!@!@!@!@!@ It should be a no brainer - person breaking down front door dressed in black w/gun = BAD GUY!

The fourth amendment is suppose to guarantee that US Citizens are safe and secure in their homes! But some LEOs argue that they "need" dynamic entry to minimize the risk to their lives, even if these entries cost the lives of a few innocent citizens.

Don't you see the lie you've bought into? That somehow, because of the profession that YOU have chosen, your life is now worth more than that of the "lowly" citizen? Sure, dynamic entries may kill a few innocent citizens, but they "save LEOs lives". What the h*ll happened to "protect and to serve"! YOU chose to be a police officer! YOU chose a career where YOU are to PROTECT AND SERVE the CITIZEN! Yet you are willing to sacrifice a few of those you are to protect and serve, in order to make your job less dangerous.

You have fallen into the trap of Elitism, which is just a hop, skip and jump away from Fascism! You may not say it, but deep in your heart you believe that YOUR life is of more value than those you are to protect and to serve.

Most of the Law Enforcement Officers on these boards truly desire to serve their real bosses - the US Citizen. But sadly, a few have bought into the Elitism, and the "us vs. them" mentality. If being an LEO is too dangerous without violating the 4th amendment, then get the h*ll out of law enforcement.

(rant mode off)
 
Glenn, I don't think that anyone is suggesting resisting a police raid whether mistaken or not -- at least I'm not suggesting that.

You hear somebody breaking into your home in the middle of the night. Are you telling me that you're not going to go for your gun? If I hear my door being kicked in, my first thought isn't that it's the police doing a no-knock raid as I have never been in trouble with the law. Instead, given the fact that I have very little data to go on, I'm going to assume that it is one or more BG very likely high on drugs.

I grab my gun. My bedroom door is kicked open and a couple of men are standing there with guns. At this point, I would say that I am in reasonable fear of my life and that of my family's.

IF they are BGs (and that's the logical assumption that I am working on), then in most cases, they will not be professionally trained and will not be wearing body armor.

Since I am outnumbered and outgunned, I HAVE to start shooting first if I have any hope of defending myself & my family. Those couple of seconds where they're trying to figure out where everything is, is the only edge I have. If I don't use it and they are BGs, then chances are that I will be killed anyway no matter what I do after that point.

Are you suggesting that at this point in time, a homeowner should not take advantage of those couple of seconds and not fire?

If your answer is "no, don't fire yet", then don't bother reading the rest of this post but if you say "Yes, you have to shoot now or risk death or serious injury to yourself and your family", then we're back to the original question: What bhappens if these men were LEO and you injuried or killed one of them?

Given all of the unknowns at the time, what is the best course of action?
 
FUD,
What you just described is something that I too have been concerned about. Let me throw something else into the mix. I have two very large Rottweilers (150 lbs+), that the mere sight of, has caused at least two local LEOs to change their under ware. Anyone entering my home will be greeted by these monsters, and they don't bark, they roar! I assume a SWAT team would shoot the dogs without hesitation. Now I'm in the same situation as you, but the intruders have already FIRED ON, AND PROBABLY KILLED, MEMBERS OF MY FAMILY. Now what are you suppose to do?
 
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