Breaking & Entering by LEO

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FUD

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Two other trends ([Link to invalid post] & [Link to invalid post]) got me thinking about this ...

Suppose you and your family are in bed when you are awaken by your front door being kicked in and the sound of people moving around in the house and heading in your direction. As they burst into your bedroom with firearms visible, you open fire -- hitting one or two of them and killing another. After having a machine gun pointed at you, you drop your weapon and discover that you have just fired upon the local SWAT team and killed one of the deputies.

Once calm is restored, it is determined that they were at the wrong house. What happens now? You killed a deputy because from what was happening, it appeared that your life and that of your family was in danger. They, in turn, BROKE into your home without a valid reason. What happens next?

With reports of SWAT teams going into the wrong house on the rise, it's only a matter of time before something like this happens (if it hasn't already happened).

Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD
fud-nra.gif
 
There was one case like that, in San Jose California I think. Don't recall details, something about a Hispanic homeowner with no English not understanding the shouted instructions, and plugging at least one cop right through a door.

If I recall right, the guy got off!

Anybody remember this?

Jim
 
There was a thread on this a while back. "Tactical surrendur" - acknowledging that living in a good neighborhood the most likely reason that your door would be kicked in is a no-knock warrant.

I personally think the likely outcome would be you dead.


Practice your quick-surrendur!!


Battler.
 
"There was a thread on this a while back. "Tactical surrendur" - acknowledging that living in a good neighborhood the most likely
reason that your door would be kicked in is a no-knock warrant."

Just the opposite. Living in a good neighborhood, with me having no criminal background, no felony warrants, and a history of criminals shouting "POLICE!!" before they break down your door (Arizona and elsewhere), my reasoned assumption would lead me to conclude foul play and ill intent.

I go for the FAL. May God rest their souls.

Rick
PS, if police wish to arrest me or serve a warrant, they can call me on the phone, nice like, at 4pm, not 3am.
 
(okay, I was actually the one that started the tactical surrendur thread a while back).


You said it yourself RickD: You have that FAL.

Home invasions where I live are nonexistant. Call me pessimistic; but I think that filling out yellow forms for politically incorrect rifles has put my family in danger.


Battler.
 
I said this on another thread. If you face a competent team, you are going to die.

Does that give you a problem if it is home invaders playing police? Why indeed it does.

So the door of the bedroom breaks in and you wake from the haze of sleep and face 3 MP-5s and a 12 gauge or two. Going for the FAL?

HA HA HA. Try it.

So you are upstairs or in a backroom and hear the door kick. Are you near the FAL? If not,
you are probably swarmed before you get there. Yank out your snubbie?

So, the best possible scenario is you are upstairs, you don't have to worry about your kids. You hear the front door go.

Can your bedroom door resist a team?

Do you try to communicate with them?

Do you call 911, activate the alarm if you can?

The last two are best bets if they are a fake team as they probably will flee.

So I hope your door can resist the attack.

If it is a dynamic entry and you open up,
the odds are that the return fire kills you.

So your best hope is that you pop one guy coming through the door and the rest retreat.
They don't keep coming or fire through your crappy entire walls into your room.

Then you can negotiate, maybe. If they don't flash bang you and do it again.

Nice again to see the mindless chest pounding of some.

If you've seen 4 or 5 MP-5s firing at the same time - ouch.

So your best bet is to communicate with them if you have sometime in the safe room.

Facing a team is quite different from the response of just hearing the door kick in or window break downstairs.

Even in that case, charging out is a no-no.
 
So, Glenn, are you advising that we don't even consider armed resistance in the event of a break-in, whether legally sanctioned or not?

Fine. You play your way, and I'll play mine.
 
Glenn, you're being pretty unrealistic. Most people's houses aren't surrounded by cover...in fact, a general rule of crime prevention is to have as little cover and concealment as possible around your house.
I don't know about anyone else, but I am a very light sleeper and live in a quiet neighborhood...if a bunch of cars (not just cop cars, ANY cars) start pulling up on my street it is going to wake me up. So there goes this idea you seem to have that there is suddenly going to appear at the head of the bed a full equipped SWAT team.
More likely, you hear commotion outside, maybe your motion detector lights go on, maybe the dog starts barking (and other dogs in the neighborhood).
You reach for the bedside gun, pick up the phone and get ready to dial 911 and then you hear the door crash in followed by (usually unintelligible if what I see on COPS is any indication) yelling.
So you get back to the basic scenario...SWAT team rolls in without properly identifying themselves and you're armed and ready.
Again, going by what I have read in news reports, the first casualties they take, they will be pulling back, not pressing on like an infantry squad.
So if you survive their cover fire as they pull back, you ARE going to be in the case indicated by the first post in this thread.
Well, YOU aren't, since you seem to be advocating defenselessness, but some people here could be.
So, to quote Keanu Reeves in "Speed", "What do you do? What do you do?"
 
If you know that they are police, you are required to submit. Even if you believe it is an illegal search, the law does not allow you to respond with force UNTIL you know that your life is in danger despite the fact that you have acted properly. If they shoot first or shoot after you've attempted to surrender, you are clear to fire.

In a no-knock situation and the police announce themselves, I'd barricade if possible on the off chance that they are criminals. I'd also call 911 and talk to a dispatcher. If they say the cops are outside, no problem. If not, perform the indicated response.

However, if my door gets kicked in and I don't hear the magic word "Police", my first response will be to terminate any threats I see. If they don't declare themselves as lawfully appointed officers, they don't get the protection.
 
What really scares me is that criminals are using this tactic as well. They break the door in while dressed in black and shout "POLICE!"

Now how are we supposed to know the difference?

It seems like the best course of action is to go for the gun if you have time. The other option is to submit to what may very well be criminals looking to kill/rape/rob your family. It's bad all around.

I'm convinced that I need to install outdoor motion detectors.

------------------
There are two types of men: those with guns, and those at their mercy.
 
Most will prolly disagree with this, but my neightbor and I have an understanding.

We both know and trust each other like family. We know the other is honest and law abiding and there is NO reason for any raids or no knock warrents for us.

In the event of a raid on one of us, the LEO team will be unplesently suprised by the other. We will hear the raid in progress and defend each other as needed.

He watches my back and I watch his.

We have seen all too many times where the team raids the wrong house, kills the wrong person, and the only justice the family sees is a half asses appology. No one sees any jail time. No justice is served. Lon, a walking free murderer, is proof. "I vas just follink orderz" is now an acceptable defense for LEO screw ups.

This is not acceptable to me. If they screw the pooch, they must be held accountable. Murder is murder is murder. Regardless if the state sanctions it or if it was a "mistake".

You can hold off a SWAT or Fed team. This was proven at Mt Carmel. You just have to know, trust, and love your neighbors. LEO must be held accountable when they shoot up the wrong family on a raid.

It's unlawful armed entry any way you slice it... and they are a threat to you and your family.
 
There are good psychologist and there are bad ones. I've had occassion to see both in action. And before you start smerking, they wern't for me. Glenn, the issue isn't about how good you'll do in a fire fight. Its about rouge cops that want to operate outside the bounds of Constitutional rights. Does that seem like a plausible cause and effect.
We know we are going to get our butts shot off, what about the cause and effect? Or does the RKBA mean anything to you.

James
 
Genlemen,

we mostly live in flimsy homes, many who's exterior wall will not stop a rifle bullet and manny more a 9mm. Unless you provide your selves with good cover and time to orginize your already planned defence of your "Levvit-town Castle"....then I would not advise going up against a team of highly trained LEO's with bullet shields, Gas, Grenades (of stun variety) and more kevlar than you can immagine. Let alone all the recources at their disposal, helicopters and if neccesary now a days even tanks on loan from the military...

My point if you can't make a practical defense without killing yourself and proboly your whole family in the procces dont even try it!

Peace
IZZY
 
The identical sceniro you mention happened in Orlando, Florida a few years ago. The case went to trial and the jury returned a verdict of NOT GUILTY. The standard in Florida is the "reasonable man standard." Did the defendant act a reasonable person under the circumstances. Of course no one wants to see someone killed. However the fact remains the homeowner was justified. When someone barges in especially as you described one doesn't have the time to calmly sit back and make a decision.
 
IZZY, you might have missed the original point that I was asking about. Either that, or this post has moved into a different direction on it's own.

I'm not suggesting firing upon LEO but if I hear someone breaking into my home and with weapon in hand, men burst into my bedroom, they will be fired upon.<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI> If they are a trained SWAT team, then chances are that I will be killed in the process unless during that first split second or two while they are still trying to figure out where everything is in the room, I can land some solid hits causing them to fall back seeking cover.
<LI> If they are not LEO and I do not fire, chances are good that I will be killed.</UL>Getting back to the original topic. Assuming they are LEO and assuming they take a hit and one of the deputies is seriously injuried or killed, what happens next? They were at the wrong house and I was in fear of my life. Yet, a man is dead.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IZZY:

My point if you can't make a practical defense without killing yourself and proboly your whole family in the procces dont even try it!
[/quote]

Very good point. I have no family so I can make my choices without consideration of dependents. If I ever marry, I intend to discuss such an eventuality beforehand. I do hope I marry someone whose's response would be to grab a SAW and cover me.
 
Just barricade your house with bags of "jelly" doughnuts. That will keep most cops busy long enough to prepare yourself. Or just tell them there's a riot in progress on the next block-they will be as far awy from that as possible.
 
The difference is that a bad-guy will probably come skulking in, and depending on your security, you may or may not have time to prepare. Unless they are making a lot more mistakes than just the address, the POLICE come in hard, fast, and with no warning. You are unlikely to have a chance to resist.

------------------
I am not a dangerous psychotic!
I just play one at work.
 
Problem is some bad guys come in hard and fast, wearing black n tough, loot, kill the witnesses and/or defenders and split. Seems to be more of this in upscale neighborhoods.

Only the investigators and God can tell whether was a gang hit n grab to make a point or a mistaken meth lab take down. Both sides seem to be able to make address mistakes.

The legal status of the poor resident seems to be very tenuous, as is his life in this day and age.

Sad indeed.

Sam
 
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