Breaking a Rule, Reholstering

At the risk of getting flamed, . . . let me just throw an opinion here: if you have to look at your holster to make sure you are putting your weapon in it without shooting your leg, butt, or other hand, . . . you are in definite need of some serious equipment, . . . some serious training, . . . and probably a good dose of self confidence.

A good holster, IWB, OWB, shoulder, or even a thigh rig, . . . should be easily entered with one hand, . . . in the pitch black of the darkest night.

But then again, if you bought one of those $12.95 Uncle Mike Nylon, . . . well, . . . you got what you paid for. Same goes for the $15 half leather, half kydex piece of trash you bought at the gun show, . . . and he even made it in his toaster oven as you watched.

Take a day off of fishing, . . . bowling, . . . shooting pool with your buddies or whatever else you do for fun, . . . spend it getting acquainted with your firearm, your holster, your cover garment, . . . and just maybe, . . . go buy some decent equipment.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
At the risk of getting flamed, . . . let me just throw an opinion here: if you have to look at your holster to make sure you are putting your weapon in it without shooting your leg, butt, or other hand, . . . you are in definite need of some serious equipment, . . . some serious training, . . . and probably a good dose of self confidence.
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Dwight,

No flame here. I just been carrying a gun for over 30 years and Mr Murphy is my friend. I know cops who shot themselves in the butt with a crappy factory double action revolver trigger.

My point, there is no rush to holster, it should be a controlled activity. I see a divide with the guys who carry guns with active safeties and those who do not. I carry a Glock, it offers many things that to ME that outweigh other designs. I am very confident in my abilities and equipment and I have had some of best training in the country.

On a duty rig, yes you need to be able to holster by feel, concealed carry is another beast. That is why a carry system is a "System" and not just a gun and a holster.
 
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Deal with the threat in an appropriate manner. If possible, make like roadrunner and get the hell outta there.

If your gun is in your hand, leave it there until you're sure you're out of the danger zone or the immediate need has passed.

If so, replace the gun back in its carry mode in the safest manner possible. You may be shaking and breathing hard and if so, your fine motor skills are trashed- so be extra cautious. If you need to look at the holster, gun-bag etc. then DO that. The object of having a concealed weapon is to avoid death or serious injury at the hands of an attacker. It sort of defeats the purpose if you shoot yourself.

If the cops show up while you still have a gun in your hand, expect to be treated to a roadside gun show and expedient handcuffing. You will probably not be shot so long as you don't point the gun their direction and follow instructions immediately.
 
Sarge said:
...If possible, make like roadrunner and get the hell outta there...
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Sorry, but in general that can be a very bad idea -- unless you can demonstrate that you had good reason to believe you would be at risk staying and waiting for the police. Flight can be treated as evidence of guilt.

We've discussed dealing with the immediate aftermath of a self defense incident here, here, and here.
 
Frank Ettin said:
... Flight can be treated as evidence of guilt. ...
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It might be splitting hairs, but there is a difference between "flight" and "not remaining on scene".

Flight generally means an attempt to avoid capture, or avoid association with an event.

It's pretty difficult to use "not remaining on scene" as evidence of guilt when you've called the police to report the incident, identified yourself and indicated that you'll be waiting for officers to arrive, having taken refuge at a diner two blocks away.
 
Exactly my point, Zombie. You leave the immediate area of an armed encounter, if possible, for the same reason you don't sit in the middle of the interstate after being involved in an accident. So you don't get hit again.

I've got near 30 years behind a badge and I would not consider such a defensive repositioning anything but common sense.
 
zombietactics said:
It might be splitting hairs, but there is a difference between "flight" and "not remaining on scene".

Flight generally means an attempt to avoid capture, or avoid association with an event.

It's pretty difficult to use "not remaining on scene" as evidence of guilt when you've called the police to report the incident, identified yourself and indicated that you'll be waiting for officers to arrive, having taken refuge at a diner two blocks away.
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That is very true. And there's a difference between what you just described and:
Sarge said:
..make like roadrunner and get the hell outta there...
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If it's someone's intent to give meaningful advice about removing himself to a place of comparative safety and reporting the incident from there, as you have done, he really should be clear and complete, as you have been. Just suggesting that one "take a powder" is too easily misunderstood and leaves too much important information out.
 
Maybe it's just the way I read it, but you do know that a 360 degree scan does not include a 360 sweep of the weapon?
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I've been involved in 2 shootings while on duty. Both times included a 360 degree scan with the weapon at low ready all the way around after the shootings. Why would you do it any differently and not be looking where your weapon is pointing?
 
45_auto said:
I've been involved in 2 shootings while on duty. Both times included a 360 degree scan with the weapon at low ready all the way around after the shootings....
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A good time to use position sul:

Position-SUL5.jpg


PositionSul1a.jpg
 
No way I'd reholster blind after a serious incident. Every time I've been in a really hairy situation the adrenaline dump has affected my motor skills enough that I wouldn't take it for granted that I could do something as "simple" as holstering my firearm.

Does that mean I take my eyes off my surroundings? I guess - or maybe I move to a safer place - I don't know. But I will not reholster without paying some attention to what I'm doing.



The stuff you can do on "automatic" becomes a lot less automatic in a high stress situation.
 
What ISN'T mentioned in 'classes'...

One of the primary rules of range safety is "Keep the muzzle pointed downrange, or in a safe direction."

Great idea. For whatever reason, I just had to draw down on a malefactor posing an immediate, deadly physical threat in the main passageway in the local mall. Which direction is 'safe'? Could someone answer that for me? In about forty-five years of carrying a sidearm, the only answer I have is to point it 'up' or 'down'. North, South, East and West are all taken up with bystanders, potential victims and other bits one does not want to shoot without serious provocation. Mr. Ettin's photographic suggestion seems reasonable.

Good heavens, yes; scan the whole area to make sure the malefactor doesn't have a partner, a safety man, a getaway driver or nanny in attendance. One might also make mental notes about witnesses, if possible.

Don't point the weapon at anyone intentionally - to single out that person - unless that seems to be the 'significant other' in the malefactor's scheme. But 'turn' one must just to check the area.

Holster without looking? Great idea, again. Easier if one is carrying an open type belt holster; not so easy if carrying concealed. I commonly wear an open top holster with retention strap under a jacket. I can holster without looking, but I have to feel around a bit. Normally there are no bonus points awarded for 'speed of return to holster'. Don't get panicked about it. Just get the pistol put away when it is prudent to do so. Preferably without discharging any more rounds.

This may include moving to what in boxing is called a 'neutral corner'. Not 'gone', but away from the open and in a position to maintain an eye on the scene. One does not want the casual passerby to pick up or move evidence, like the malefactor's weapon. But as previous noted by Mr. Ettin, don't imply by action an intent to 'flee'. Obviously, this is colored by a lingering firefight or other malefactors present.

Normally, one will meet the local authorities shortly - who knows how long - after such an event. One should call for both LEOs and EMTs and give a brief regarding what happened. How many wounded, what sort of wounds (in general and to the best of one's ability; not everyone speaks anatomy or trauma care) and if hostilities have concluded or not. If hostilities continue, brief dispatch about location of villain or villains and from which direction approach is safest.

When the authorities show up, expect to be handcuffed and disarmed. Just expect it. Have your license and ID somewhere handy - like a shirt pocket - so as not to 'dig' for it in pockets. When they ask, tell them where your sidearm is located. If they are nervous, they probably don't want you getting it out for them.

Surviving a shooting is more than just shooting ability. One must not panic and the best way NOT to panic is the same method of not jerking the trigger; concentrate on what needs to be done. One needs to work this out prior to the encounter.

Frankly, I would probably need to use a restroom. I tend to overactive bladder when emotions run high.
 
My only problem with sul (thank you for the pictures) is adding it to all the habits of low ready I've spent so much time on...
 
Archie said:
One of the primary rules of range safety is "Keep the muzzle pointed downrange, or in a safe direction."

Great idea. For whatever reason, I just had to draw down on a malefactor posing an immediate, deadly physical threat in the main passageway in the local mall. Which direction is 'safe'? Could someone answer that for me?...
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First, as practical defensive pistol craft began to evolve, the old NRA type range safety rules (like "Always keep your muzzle downrange or in a safe direction"), best adapted to target shooting on cold ranges, began to be supplanted by safe gun handling rules better adapted to action shooting on hot ranges and gun handling out in the real world (like "Never let your muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy." and "Know your target and what's behind it."). Then we saw the development of gun handling techniques like sul adapted to allow moving safely with a loaded gun in hand in a crowded environment, in a confined area or in a group. So some of these concerns are answered by further training.
 
Thanks for all the great replies,,,I can tell there are a lot of much more experienced shooters than I am on here,,,especially in combat pistol training.

And that is the best way to learn,,,from someone more experienced who is willing to share and teach.

Great post on how to safely do a 360 degree sweep of your perimeter where there might be friendlies in the environment.

From everyone's posts I have revised my thinking,,,to me this is not a hard and fast rule it depends on the circumstances,,,if after a confrontation or a shooting you feel confident in reholstering your firearm without looking while keeping your eyes downrange for danger more power to you that is probably the best way,,,however if after a confrontation or a shooting, where every nerve in every cell in your body might be firing, and you have been extremely vigilant in clearing the area and you have possibly attained safe cover if there is any and you feel the need to take your time and be extremely careful and maybe even looking while reholstering,,,I see nothing wrong with that also.
 
I'm with jammer six on sul, I don't have to worry about shooting a fellow officer during an entry, so good old low ready is just fine.

For the folks that say they need to see their holster, I guess you never carry with a SOB holster?
 
When I first saw position sul, I thought that was the dumbest thing I had ever seen.

This doesn't happen very often, but I was wrong.

I've since tried it, and it gets me on target- accurately- much more quickly than a low ready. And if you do it correctly, it's almost impossible to point the gun at your feet, as I had originally thought.

As for reholstering without looking- I've seen people get cover garments, or just their regular garments tucked into a holster by accident, just during range conditions, not under stress. Without looking, you risk that something might catch the trigger and fire it in your holster. This might be a cover garment, a damaged holster, or some other foreign object.

With looking, you risk that another attack is going to happen in the second or two you look down to ensure your holster is clear. This is after you've already determined the situation is safe.

Either way, your gun is now holstered. If another threat appears after that point, your reaction time is going to be about two seconds anyway. So, really the two seconds you're looking at your holster doesn't hurt your reaction time any worse than having the gun holstered. IMO, if you're secure enough to holster, you're secure enough to look to ensure your holster is clear.

In either case- snagging a trigger vs. an attack while holstering- the risk is so minimal, you could go either way with it. I think the bigger risk is that the situation is not safe after you determined it was. If you really want to do something to enhance your safety in the aftermath of a gunfight, the bigger is learning to check your surroundings or getting to a safe place after a shooting.

(Bear in mind, the safe place doesn't have to be 4 counties away, like that guy in Jacksonville last week.)
 
For the folks that say they need to see their holster, I guess you never carry with a SOB holster?
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I think you are missing the point. It is not so much to "see" the holster as it is to be very deliberate re holstering. I am fairly new to Glock's but have a career of being a gun toter. I do not often carry strong side hip OWB concealed and never SOB due to the possibility of a back injury.
 
I am one of the older shooters here and I can guarantee if I had to shoot then I will reload and reholster and I will look at the gun during both operations. It isn't can't reholster without looking because I usually do but target shooting isn't stressful and a shooting or armed confrontation is.

I will slow down and take the extra step to accommodate nerves and shaking hands. This isn't a TV show or movie where you have to be cool in front of the camera and that extra second to look at your holster is worth it. I wear suspenders too and I don't give two hoots and a holler what you skinny young guys wear or don't wear, you are looking good for your mates and I am just trying to get older. If you have to maintain a 360 degree high security status then you better not be putting your gun away.

All you little holster without looking or it isn't cool types can just come to the little hut in the woods and show me where I am wrong. I will learn from everybody and if you can explain how I am not a gunner because I look then fine but I have been holstering guns since the early 50's and have yet to shoot myself or drop a gun on the ground or miss the holster and have to try it again.
 
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