Body armor for instructors

When do you wear body armor?

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Agree with jim page in post #23 that if the instructor needs armor, so do the students. A number of the examples in these threads have mentioned students covering students as much as instructors.

But what's the reason for this? Has there been an uptick in accidental range shootings during training? I'm not plugged into the current training scene but I haven't heard of anything that would prompt me to spring for a vest.

But, if there is a need, then wear the thing and don't worry about how it looks.
 
Hmmmm...Look like a d***** and be safe or look cool and not have protection from an accident?
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Chicks dig scars.:D

Just buy a regular looking vest so you don't look like captain safety.
 
Anyone can get better. Anyone can improve. Teachers can become better teachers. I don't blame my students for their mistakes on the firing line.
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I don't think we are trying to place blame on anyone. People are human. They make mistakes.

The vest is a symptom of that state of affairs, and certainly isn't a solution.
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The state of affairs is that fallible people are launching bits of metal at 1000+ fps. Every once in a while, they launch one in a direction they don't intend to.
Clearly, emphasizing and practicing proper safety is vital. Extra protection for accidents/negligence is not a solution, but is a method of mitigating potential damage.
 
Who cares what is written on the vest? If you are a firearms instructor and the vest says "firearms instructor", what's the beef? It identifies clearly who and what you are.
 
To be clear - one can debate the facts. I clearly disagree with statements that argue that the first time there is a mistake it is due to perhaps to the student. But a later mistake is due to the instructor.

One can reject that view but such an absolutist view is not supported by what we know about human factors and teaching.

If one wants to post such a strong view, then one must accept the critique. To claim insult as a critique after make strong and disparaging comments about others is not a viable defense.
 
I can imagine a class of ten. Someone's going to ask me "where's OUR vests?"-lol So be ready for that.
New shooters in my classes get one round and one instructor. The first time they hear the bang feel the recoil and get excited they want to turn around and share,muzzle and all. I stop them right there and review the muzzle direction rule. Blue guns don't add that excitement.

Good points all previous posts..I'm undecided
 
Good points all previous posts..I'm undecided
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Agreed. I don't teach professionally. When I do teach friends/co-workers, I usually don't wear armor, unless I want to demonstrate/teach things like transitions and rifle reloads (from the vest). When I did help teach larger groups in a military setting, the instructors wore vests. That was partially for identification, partially for safety, and partially because we always wore vests when practicing together.

I wouldn't say armor is a "must have" for all firearms instruction. In some situations, I would require it (shoot houses and training with a lot of movement). For basic instruction, I would not negatively critique anyone who did wear it, especially if the instructor to student ratio was not 1:1 or close to it.
 
Red vests, body armor, range safety, shooting....

I say wear the red FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR vest(armor).
I have trained & shot live rounds on many military/public sector(armed security) ranges.
Many shooters/students seem to think they are Tier 1 spec ops(CAG-Delta, SEALs, ParaRescue, SWAT, etc). Until they loud noises go off and the wind/gunsmoke starts to whip around everyone.
Safety is no accident. Your safety & being clearly seen is more important than your "image". I'd wear body armor & the marked red instructor vest even in the break room/class rooms so the students(who will get tunnel vision, loss of motor skills) will keep safety in mind.

Now, not all armed citizens or security officers/sworn LE act that way but new or entry level students might.

CF
 
I'm not insulted at all. I just disagree with the analysis of errors and that some students continued mistakes are laid at the feet of the instructor.

Not my experience, in the various domains, I work in. I would love to have the magic method that guarantees only one boo-boo.

I also didn't think the vest in question was troublesome or gave a wrong message.
 
I don't wear armor on the range, but I'm generally on the range with my brother LEOs. I trust them with my life.

I've never had a problem on an LEO range and I've been playing this game for over 30 years. When I"m running a non-LEO range, I'm apt to wear my armor, but I won't call attention to it. It will be under my shirt, as it is when I'm on duty. There is a reason for the Four Rules, and I'm a stickler for them.
 
Thoughts on teaching....If everyone in the class fails is everyone in the class stupid or is the teacher at fault? It is my opinion the teacher has failed to properly teach the lesson unless you happen to be one lucky (unlucky?) teacher.

What if a single student (let's say 10 students per class) repeatedly makes the same mistake? I claim that this is a student that needs a little more attention.

As far as to wear or not to wear...It's better to be safe than sorry, so wear it. Mistakes HAPPEN we are human, you absolutely cannot teach that away but with proper teaching you can minimize it.
 
Three points of philosophy: First, I am reminded of something Libertarian David Bergland said back in the Reagan era. If I remember correctly:

"Utopia is a place where everyone always has everything they want and nothing ever goes wrong. Utopia is not one of the options."​

Second is something the father of a friend of mine liked to point out:
"Just when you've successfully idiot-proofed something, the world invents an even bigger class of idiot to circumvent your efforts."
​
My own thought is that accident proofing is a little like the fighting mindset. You prepare to fight so you don't have to. That works because the mindset and attitude projected by the prepared warrior will normally stop the fight before it starts. Similarly, you prepare for accidents, and in being prepared you bring the mindset and attitude that prevents accidents before they happen. The trick, in both instances, though, is the preparation has to be real.
 
Does anyone have an answer to the question I posed in post # 41?

What is the reason for wearing vests in a training environment? Has there been an uptick in accidental discharges with resultant personal injuries that might have been prevented by vests?

The seatbelt analogy only works if there is analogous data. We wear seatbelts because there are so many thousands of accidents with injuries that have been proven to be preventable by wearing seatbelts. Anybody have any data like that that pertains to this situation?

And, if there is good reason for instructors to wear vests, why not students?
 
Students:

Expense

Instructors:

More exposure to risk on a longer term basis from novice shooters.

Since most folks take few classes - they have only a small chance of an ND hit. Instructors have more.

That would be my take on the question.
 
Moxie, I haven't heard of any increase in accidents.

If the seat belt analogy is valid, (and because of the preventable accident issue, I don't believe it is) then like a seat belt, there would be no moral justification for protecting the instructor without protecting each student.
 
Yup, you're all right

Um, to answer the two questions posted:
1. What are your thoughts on wearing ballistics in training?

2. When is it appropriate or not?
 
Yup, you're all right

Um, to answer the two questions posted:

1. What are your thoughts on wearing ballistics in training?
... not a bad idea, I would.

2. When is it appropriate or not?
... depends on the circumstance.

It appears that this discussion like some other threads, has moved into the realm of how many angles can dance on the head of a pin.
 
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