Blue Press Publishes Rebuttals to "Why the .45 ACP Failed" Article

COSteve

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I invite each of you to check out Dillon's November issue of their 'Blue Press', starting on page 32, which has pages of thoughtful rebuttals to Duane Thomas' articles, "Why the .45 ACP Failed" and "Acky Breaky Hands" in their October issue. The published rebuttals are good, sound arguments that contradict the prevailing opinions today that the 9mm is "just as good as the .45 ACP," something I've believed too since I first was issued a 1911A1 way back in 1967.

I agree with many of the points contained in the pages of long rebuttals; many of which are very thoughtfully expressed. While the 9mm is cheaper to buy, feed, and train with, it's performance is not the same as larger calibers using the same type of modern bullet designs no matter what the advertisers and soothsayers claim. Selling more product is what motivates sellers so they'll say anything to push their product.

That said, it's adequate for many who either don't train enough to accept a bit higher recoil or can't afford to train enough with the higher cost ammo of larger calibers. Yes, the 9mm is a great competition caliber, however, none of the targets in Practical Pistol, 3 Gun, etc., are shooting back so effectiveness isn't a criteria at all.

I understand that most will argue the 9mm is "good enough" and they might be correct for their level of practice and resources. Those of us who've used a larger caliber in combat and still train to stay proficient with it are happy to use it notwithstanding to popular attitudes about the 9mm. As a case in point, most troops in the 'Sand Box' agree that the combination of the Beretta M9 and 9mm ammo didn't prove to be the best choice, just the cheapest one.

As a pistol shooter for over 60 yrs, I own and shoot semi-autos in 40s&w, .45 ACP, and 10mm as well as dabbling in a bit of 45 Super. In SA pistols, I enjoy them in .357 Mag and .45 Colt. The fact is, I don't even own a 9mm firearm and haven't in some 50 years. Why? Not a fan of the caliber and as a handloader, the cost difference for a more effective caliber is tiny. (My son does own a Nazi marked, s/n matching, 1940 Model 42 German Luger but it isn't something he shoots; it's part of his collection of WWII Axis and Allies weapons.)

While you may not agree with much or anything I've said here, I invite you to pickup a free copy of the November Blue Press, turn to page 32, read the rebuttals, and decide for yourself if any or all have merit. Those of you who swear by your 9mms, I applaud you and hope your practice is sufficient so that if the need arises, your "good enough" choice will prove effective enough.
 
Do we really need another caliber war thread? Do we need one for each caliber that has been "maligned"? This horse has been beaten passed recognition. Carry what you want and move on with life. People are treating caliber like it's a religion and they have some duty to "spread the word".

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Relax! Just thought that some people would like to read some thoughtful, insightful rebuttal of an article in the Blue Press last month.

Evidently TunnelRat doesn't.
 
Sorry. We already have a long thread on the death of the 40SW. I just don't want to go down that route again.

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Relax! Just thought that some people would like to read some thoughtful, insightful rebuttal of an article in the Blue Press last month.

Evidently TunnelRat doesn't.
I agree. Despite some thinking that it may be the impetus for a repetitive caliber war, there just may, just may, be some point of view newly expressed that I have not heard or considered before. That is what a gun forum is...people posting stuff about guns. :)
 
Don't bother reading it then. I would like to read what people have to say.
Then read it. You're making more of it than I did. You mention the forum is about discussion. I was discussing my opinion that this topic is tired (rebuttals to all the points in the OP can be found in the other thread). That doesn't stop anyone else from reading or posting.

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That the 9mm is better than the 45acp (in effect ~ original 45 Colt ballistics) is Settled Science.
Nothing to see here.
Move on . . . Move on.


















Raaaaaaaaaaagggghhht........
 
If limited to ball ammo, .45in holes are better than .35in holes...but 2x .35in holes is better than 1x .45 hole.

If not limited to ball ammo, modern 9mm hollow points do pretty well in testing. .45acp hollow points still get bigger, but again, capacity can matter.
 
As a sympathizer to "9mm isn't just as effective as .40 or .45, round for round, no matter what you say," I will say that the capacity of 9mm makes the "round for round" part of that argument moot.

If we were all limited to 10 rounds, which is a realistic possibility, then the larger calibers would look a lot better. Say what you want, the bigger calibers have something to offer.
 
That said, it's adequate for many who either don't train enough to accept a bit higher recoil or can't afford to train enough with the higher cost ammo of larger calibers.
Ironically, I think it's likely that a person who doesn't train enough will often choose a larger caliber because they think it will make up for their lack of skill.

I took a 2 day pistol class awhile back. I outshot everyone in the class for time and accuracy except for the instructor. Most of the students were shooting 9mms, I was shooting 10mm because 9mm ammo was scarce at the time but I had a lot of 10mm on hand.

I can shoot even faster and more accurately with a 9mm than with a 10mm--I have the scores & times to prove it.

I carry a 9mm because no one has ever come up with hard evidence that the terminal ballistics a 10mm will provide a practically significant advantage over a 9mm in real-world gunfights. Maybe there is some advantage, but if so, it must be so small as to be insignificant given that it has remained undetectable in spite of so many people searching for it for so long. On the other hand, it's very easy to show that a 9mm does provide a practically significant advantage over a 10mm in a gunfight in terms of accuracy and speed. All you need is a timer and a target and an incentive to push to your performance limits.

If anyone ever does come up with evidence that the terminal ballistics of a 10mm, or a .45ACP will provide a practically significant advantage over a 9mm in real-world gunfights, then I will weigh the quantified advantage against the quantified costs in accuracy/speed/size/capacity and make changes, if the comparison suggests that changes are appropriate. At this point, it seems extremely unlikely that could ever happen given how hard, how long, and how many people have tried to demonstrate such an advantage without success.

My advice is to spend more time training and less time worrying about stopping power and caliber selection. The guy who wins a gunfight won't win because of the numbers on the box of ammo he bought or because of what he knows about stopping power. He will win because he's better than the other guy--or maybe just because of luck. If people really won gunfights based on caliber, we would be able to see that trend in the data taken from real-world gunfights. But we don't.
 
read

Read the original article. There were actually 2 separate articles declaring the decline of the .45 acp in the issue. I figured there would be a marked response and obviously there was.

Read the rebuttals in the recent issue. Some were little more than old gunshop banter, others more rational.

I think it's interesting to note that when the mag capacity laws were in effect (10 rds ) that the 9mm lost a good bit of it's luster, the .40 rose in popularity, and the .45 more than held it's own. Should we ever suffer the same regulation again, I'd wager the trend would repeat itself.
 
First the .40 and now the .45ACP dead within a week. I don't know if I can take it anymore. Next to go will be the 380 (because all the revolver rounds died years ago). Soon all that will be left is the 9mm. Then the aliens will come and we will be defenseless to their armor.

9mm is faster to shoot and lots cheaper. That is why practically everyone uses it for competition. It is also good enough for everything else which is why practically all militaries use it and most police departments are using it or switching to it.

As a case in point, most troops in the 'Sand Box' agree that the combination of the Beretta M9 and 9mm ammo didn't prove to be the best choice, just the cheapest one.

I bet. Of course "most troops in the sandbox" never touched a 9mm the whole time they were there too. Short of some kind of polling data of troops who actually carried and used a 9mm in the sandbox I'm going to have to go with "maybe, but doubtful" so far as "not proven to be the best choice".

That said, it's adequate for many who either don't train enough to accept a bit higher recoil or can't afford to train enough with the higher cost ammo of larger calibers. Yes, the 9mm is a great competition caliber, however, none of the targets in Practical Pistol, 3 Gun, etc., are [not] shooting back so effectiveness isn't a criteria at all.

I'm going to go ahead and say that most of those dangerous targets hit with 9mm bullets are not going to be shooting back either. Some maybe sure, but some of those hit with 45ACP are also going to shoot back as well.
 
Do we really need another caliber war thread? Do we need one for each caliber that has been "maligned"? This horse has been beaten passed recognition. Carry what you want and move on with life. People are treating caliber like it's a religion and they have some duty to "spread the word".

Agreed.

The published rebuttals are good, sound arguments that contradict the prevailing opinions today that the 9mm is "just as good as the .45 ACP," something I've believed too since I first was issued a 1911A1 way back in 1967.

I don't think anyone can honestly ever say "9x19mm is as good as .45 ACP" or ".45 ACP is as good as 9x19mm."

They are different. One is clearly superior to the other in some respects. The other is clearly superior in others. Everything is a trade-off. You pick the one you need based on your specific requirements.

For example, the majority of Western military forces have clearly concluded that 9x19mm is the superior handgun caliber choice for their requirements. Does that mean it's the end-all be-all? No. It just means it's superior for their requirements.

If you feel .45ACP is superior for your personal requirements... great. Go with that.


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I think JohnKSa put things in perspective rather nicely and succinctly. ;)

Personal caliber selection is seldom an "either/or" proposition for real effectiveness. Instead, it's even more subjective than felt recoil. ;)

Hits on the intended threat matter. Better hits matter more. Timely hits in the right anatomical spots matter a lot.

Carry what you like, or what you're required to carry.

Get training if you can, and arrange your practice to properly practice and retain what you've learned in training.

If you can't get training, at least try to identify and practice your existing skills so you aren't practicing poor habits & skills and simply reinforcing them.

Above all, make the effort to learn the relevant laws and how to exercise good judgment, because what you think you know - but don't know - can easily put you on the wrong side of the law if you make mistakes.

We all want to avoid the 3 M's - Mistakes, Murder & Manslaughter.

Got a favorite caliber? Cool. Now think about the real critical influences ....

This is written by someone who has long been a .45ACP proponent, and who owns almost as many .45's as I do 9's & .40's, combined. I carry all 3 major calibers, and have invested literally years of range time working with all of them while serving as a LE firearms instructor.

I simply don't agonize over caliber selection anymore.
 
Ironically, I think it's likely that a person who doesn't train enough will often choose a larger caliber because they think it will make up for their lack of skill.

Most anything is possible but I very much doubt that people who choose larger caliber bullets for self-defense are "likely" untrained shooters. It's just as possible (if not likely) that a person who doesn't train enough will often choose a smaller caliber because they think it will make up for their lack of skill in terms of handling heavier recoiling pistols. Deciding on caliber size is not necessarily a reflection on the degree of training one might have.
 
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