Double Naught Spy
New member
Right, and so all the nonsense about your fifth rule is immaterial. He wasn't trusting a mechanical safety and he didn't disengage it knowingly. The gun would have discharged with a Glock or Kahr as well.
Blackhawk Serpa Holster = Negligent Discharge?
- Thread starter DeepEastKilla
- Start date
Right, and so all the nonsense about your fifth rule is immaterial. He wasn't trusting a mechanical safety and he didn't disengage it knowingly. The gun would have discharged with a Glock or Kahr as well.
Tex seems to say in his explanation of "How did this happen?"
"I'd been practicing with my 511 thumb drive holster [sic] the 511 thumb drive is in the actual same postion as the safety on my Kimber [sic] when I went to draw my pistol I pushed down and took off the safety"
Yes I agree if he'd kept his finger out of the trigger...
But I don't think you can say if he'd kept his finger out of the trigger none of this other stuff would have happened - end of discussion.
Under normal non-stressful conditions, if you slowly reach into your holster to draw your 1911 - there is no way that you mistake the feel of flipping the safety of your pistol for the feel of activating the release of a holster. Because your mind is functioning much differently than it does when under stress.
This is me personallly - if I really think my life may depend on my ability to deploy a firearm, I'm not going to train with a bunch of different models and holsters. I want to get good with one thing and not confuse the issue.
I think that what happens sometimes is that the gun as entertainment, or gun as ego booster - interferes with the gun as a tool aspect of all this.
I love shooting, I wish I had 100 different models to play with and compare at the range.
But when you're talking about the gun as a self defense tool, goofing around with a bunch of different models is not practical.
I can see why people would have a few carry guns - Summer, Winter, casual or dressed up. A pocket pistol versus a larger pistol... there is a whole thread where people posted their reasons for a carry "rotation". But is a Glock that different from a Kimber? That much lighter, that much smaller? I mean we're not talking about the difference between a DB9 and Colt Commander. I am betting that these two pistols basically fill the same niche/function.
I think it probably pays to be cognizant of when we're doing things for the enjoyment factor, and maybe apply a little dicipline. If you are going to bet your life on being able to deploy a handgun, then it pays to be diciplined in your training, train well with the one or two pistols you really feel you need and forego having fun with the other pistols in those situations where you're possibly interfering with the training on your primary handgun.
"I'd been practicing with my 511 thumb drive holster [sic] the 511 thumb drive is in the actual same postion as the safety on my Kimber [sic] when I went to draw my pistol I pushed down and took off the safety"
Yes I agree if he'd kept his finger out of the trigger...
But I don't think you can say if he'd kept his finger out of the trigger none of this other stuff would have happened - end of discussion.
Under normal non-stressful conditions, if you slowly reach into your holster to draw your 1911 - there is no way that you mistake the feel of flipping the safety of your pistol for the feel of activating the release of a holster. Because your mind is functioning much differently than it does when under stress.
This is me personallly - if I really think my life may depend on my ability to deploy a firearm, I'm not going to train with a bunch of different models and holsters. I want to get good with one thing and not confuse the issue.
I think that what happens sometimes is that the gun as entertainment, or gun as ego booster - interferes with the gun as a tool aspect of all this.
I love shooting, I wish I had 100 different models to play with and compare at the range.
But when you're talking about the gun as a self defense tool, goofing around with a bunch of different models is not practical.
I can see why people would have a few carry guns - Summer, Winter, casual or dressed up. A pocket pistol versus a larger pistol... there is a whole thread where people posted their reasons for a carry "rotation". But is a Glock that different from a Kimber? That much lighter, that much smaller? I mean we're not talking about the difference between a DB9 and Colt Commander. I am betting that these two pistols basically fill the same niche/function.
I think it probably pays to be cognizant of when we're doing things for the enjoyment factor, and maybe apply a little dicipline. If you are going to bet your life on being able to deploy a handgun, then it pays to be diciplined in your training, train well with the one or two pistols you really feel you need and forego having fun with the other pistols in those situations where you're possibly interfering with the training on your primary handgun.
kraig....your comments below bear some comment...
Thats not true, its training and muscle memory. At every place I shoot, putting your finger on the trigger before you're lined up on the target will get you removed from the range.
Again, for safety sake, I'm trying to find out what type of holster will cause the mistake of "finger falling on the trigger" before it's suppose to. I will get one and try it.
I've got no beef with your contentions...but I'd submit that the average Joe's not going to get enough "training and muscle memory" to overcome a weak design...it just isn't going to happen. Given enough time, and no "fear factor" or what ever you'd like to call it, most of us can keep it safe...but wearing a holster intended for SD, LEO or some sort of speed competition game, with a design flaw that this one appears to sport is asking for trouble. As I recall, Front Sight's Defensive Handgun Course, discourages this type of button actuated retention device, for the danger of negligent discharge.
I'll reiterate and applaud 2nd your contention...."putting your finger on the trigger before you're lined up on the target will get you removed from the range..."....yep...that's my experience as well.
Bravo for adding to the discussion with well thought out points. We don't differ on much...I guess my comfort factor with the average Joe's safety concerns on a firing line is the major difference...and I've spent enough years on the "NRA bullseye circuit" to have seen a good bit of negligence. The speed events from the leather add another whole dimension of possibilities...good equipment, properly designed to eliminate as many safety obstacles as possible is a necessary requirement.
Rod
Thats not true, its training and muscle memory. At every place I shoot, putting your finger on the trigger before you're lined up on the target will get you removed from the range.
Again, for safety sake, I'm trying to find out what type of holster will cause the mistake of "finger falling on the trigger" before it's suppose to. I will get one and try it.
I've got no beef with your contentions...but I'd submit that the average Joe's not going to get enough "training and muscle memory" to overcome a weak design...it just isn't going to happen. Given enough time, and no "fear factor" or what ever you'd like to call it, most of us can keep it safe...but wearing a holster intended for SD, LEO or some sort of speed competition game, with a design flaw that this one appears to sport is asking for trouble. As I recall, Front Sight's Defensive Handgun Course, discourages this type of button actuated retention device, for the danger of negligent discharge.
I'll reiterate and applaud 2nd your contention...."putting your finger on the trigger before you're lined up on the target will get you removed from the range..."....yep...that's my experience as well.
Bravo for adding to the discussion with well thought out points. We don't differ on much...I guess my comfort factor with the average Joe's safety concerns on a firing line is the major difference...and I've spent enough years on the "NRA bullseye circuit" to have seen a good bit of negligence. The speed events from the leather add another whole dimension of possibilities...good equipment, properly designed to eliminate as many safety obstacles as possible is a necessary requirement.
Rod
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rod
have you used one of the Serpa holsters?
i know the first time i used it, it was natural to put my finger where it's supposed to be, not inside the trigger guard, granted i was drawing very slowly
but the first time i took it to the range it was the same thing, straight to where it was supposed to be, up and at the target, inside the trigger guard, shoot.
add to that the fact that there were 23 people at the range that day, none of which that had used this type of holster before, only 3-4 that had used a Glock, and only about 10 that had shot more than a few rounds through a pistol
nobody had a ND through 3,000 rounds of ammo, and we were doing drills similar to what this guy was doing
the ONLY way to mess up and have a ND with this type of holster is to MESS UP...
have you used one of the Serpa holsters?
i know the first time i used it, it was natural to put my finger where it's supposed to be, not inside the trigger guard, granted i was drawing very slowly
but the first time i took it to the range it was the same thing, straight to where it was supposed to be, up and at the target, inside the trigger guard, shoot.
add to that the fact that there were 23 people at the range that day, none of which that had used this type of holster before, only 3-4 that had used a Glock, and only about 10 that had shot more than a few rounds through a pistol
nobody had a ND through 3,000 rounds of ammo, and we were doing drills similar to what this guy was doing
the ONLY way to mess up and have a ND with this type of holster is to MESS UP...
Wow ... Just ... Wow.
I watched all the videos, and noted all the potential Serpa "malfunctions." then I unloaded and tried to reproduce them with my CQC.
No joy.
One I was almost sure would happen, i.e. the holster twisting off of the paddle. Nope. I twisted, pulled, pushed, and torqued and did as many as possible simultaneously, wasn't happening. So I loosened the screws and tried again. And ... nope. The paddle and belt attachments have depressed areas slightly larger than the screw heads that hold it all in position even if the screws are loose, well, right up until the point where the screws are so loose they're already falling out. After all that, I remembered that I once got my CQC (on a belt, not paddle) hung up on a fence and it held most of my body weight for almost fifteen seconds as I worked myself loose. So, I'm not worried about it.
The one where the front sight binds on the plastic tension arm when the pistol is inserted backwards for one armed reloading? Especially with M&Ps? I carry an M&P. I jammed it in, wiggled it, pushed harder, twisted, hit it on the table. Couldn't get it to happen. I practice that particular reloading technique (along with several others) every time I run drills (1000 rounds every week), it's never happened. So, I'm not worried about it.
As for the "sand/grit/gravel jamming the release," yeah, I could see that happening. Due to my job, I've rolled around in the sand/gravel/dirt while wearing my CQC, it's never happened. I have several friends in the sandbox who use Serpas, and we all know how much soldiers roll around in the dirt, they have nothing but good things to say. So, I'm not worried about it.
I could possibly see the finger falling on the trigger as you draw because your adrenaline is pumping and your fine motor control is completely shot. I did the "You lookin at me?" in the mirror a few dozen times. Didn't happen. I'm not saying it couldn't, but, it never did. Maybe because I was thinking about it. Maybe because I have trained myself properly. Maybe because my heart wasn't going 150BPM+ or because my adrenaline wasn't pumping. On the other hand, I practice drills that include high exertion to the point of gasping for breath and shaking hands, and I can't ever remember it happening. So, I'm not worried about it.
Either way, I love my Serpas. They're all CQCs. I've had them for nearly five years and, other than one leather IWB I wear when dressed up and the low profile leather for my BUG, they're all I use. I'm not changing.
Oh, and, I'm not a LEO, but I do spend a lot of time in rough country, jumping fences, climbing various stuff, crawling into tight spaces, and/or rolling around on the ground; retention is important to me and I don't think it's a "for LEOs only" type of thing. If you never do anything active, you may not need it. For those of us who are active, I recommend it, and the CQC.
So? What's my final verdict? Well ...
I'm not worried about it.
I watched all the videos, and noted all the potential Serpa "malfunctions." then I unloaded and tried to reproduce them with my CQC.
No joy.
One I was almost sure would happen, i.e. the holster twisting off of the paddle. Nope. I twisted, pulled, pushed, and torqued and did as many as possible simultaneously, wasn't happening. So I loosened the screws and tried again. And ... nope. The paddle and belt attachments have depressed areas slightly larger than the screw heads that hold it all in position even if the screws are loose, well, right up until the point where the screws are so loose they're already falling out. After all that, I remembered that I once got my CQC (on a belt, not paddle) hung up on a fence and it held most of my body weight for almost fifteen seconds as I worked myself loose. So, I'm not worried about it.
The one where the front sight binds on the plastic tension arm when the pistol is inserted backwards for one armed reloading? Especially with M&Ps? I carry an M&P. I jammed it in, wiggled it, pushed harder, twisted, hit it on the table. Couldn't get it to happen. I practice that particular reloading technique (along with several others) every time I run drills (1000 rounds every week), it's never happened. So, I'm not worried about it.
As for the "sand/grit/gravel jamming the release," yeah, I could see that happening. Due to my job, I've rolled around in the sand/gravel/dirt while wearing my CQC, it's never happened. I have several friends in the sandbox who use Serpas, and we all know how much soldiers roll around in the dirt, they have nothing but good things to say. So, I'm not worried about it.
I could possibly see the finger falling on the trigger as you draw because your adrenaline is pumping and your fine motor control is completely shot. I did the "You lookin at me?" in the mirror a few dozen times. Didn't happen. I'm not saying it couldn't, but, it never did. Maybe because I was thinking about it. Maybe because I have trained myself properly. Maybe because my heart wasn't going 150BPM+ or because my adrenaline wasn't pumping. On the other hand, I practice drills that include high exertion to the point of gasping for breath and shaking hands, and I can't ever remember it happening. So, I'm not worried about it.
Either way, I love my Serpas. They're all CQCs. I've had them for nearly five years and, other than one leather IWB I wear when dressed up and the low profile leather for my BUG, they're all I use. I'm not changing.
Oh, and, I'm not a LEO, but I do spend a lot of time in rough country, jumping fences, climbing various stuff, crawling into tight spaces, and/or rolling around on the ground; retention is important to me and I don't think it's a "for LEOs only" type of thing. If you never do anything active, you may not need it. For those of us who are active, I recommend it, and the CQC.
So? What's my final verdict? Well ...
I'm not worried about it.
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Tex's double speak
On the one hand I give Tex some credit for owning up to this mistake. On the other hand I take issue with some things in his second video.
First of all he says he "experienced a negligent discharge." Well - it's wasn't like a negligent discharge came out of the sky, descended upon him and he experienced it. He fired a bullet from his pistol into his leg- how about that? Secondly he starts to pontificate on "negligent discharges". The title of his second YouTube video is "NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES HAPPEN!”
His video sends mixed messages. He doesn't pinpoint exactly what he did wrong. On the one hand he says "I blame it purely on me". Then he says "The reason I share this is that negligent discharges happen." Then he says "I consider myself to be a safe and responsible gun owner [sic] things just tend to happen."
Well yes Tex, things tend to happen - specifically - BAD things tend to happen when you don't follow the basic rules of handgun safety, that's why they came up with those rules way back when. But other than that - contrary to what Tex says, things don't just "tend to happen". That's Hoplophobia, from a gun owner no less!
It's like he spends 2 minutes blaming the holster in a specific way and then says "I don't blame the holster; I blame it purely on me." Really?, cuz it sounds like he spends 2 minutes blaming the holster. Why did his finger curl into the trigger? Why did his thumb push down on and disengage the safety? He makes it sound like disengaging the safety was because of his work with the previous holster, and his finger curling into the trigger guard was because he hadn't hit the index mechanism: "then I pulled up, the gun did not release because I had not engaged the mechanism on the index mechanism, and so as I pulled up, I hit that, my finger curled into the trigger guard and I ripped a round into my leg." It sure sounds like he's blaming the holster to me! I didn't hear him say "I wasn't concentrating enough on keeping my finger off of the trigger..."
The truest thing he says: "After the shot went off, my training took over - I called my parents..."
On the one hand I give Tex some credit for owning up to this mistake. On the other hand I take issue with some things in his second video.
First of all he says he "experienced a negligent discharge." Well - it's wasn't like a negligent discharge came out of the sky, descended upon him and he experienced it. He fired a bullet from his pistol into his leg- how about that? Secondly he starts to pontificate on "negligent discharges". The title of his second YouTube video is "NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES HAPPEN!”
His video sends mixed messages. He doesn't pinpoint exactly what he did wrong. On the one hand he says "I blame it purely on me". Then he says "The reason I share this is that negligent discharges happen." Then he says "I consider myself to be a safe and responsible gun owner [sic] things just tend to happen."
Well yes Tex, things tend to happen - specifically - BAD things tend to happen when you don't follow the basic rules of handgun safety, that's why they came up with those rules way back when. But other than that - contrary to what Tex says, things don't just "tend to happen". That's Hoplophobia, from a gun owner no less!
It's like he spends 2 minutes blaming the holster in a specific way and then says "I don't blame the holster; I blame it purely on me." Really?, cuz it sounds like he spends 2 minutes blaming the holster. Why did his finger curl into the trigger? Why did his thumb push down on and disengage the safety? He makes it sound like disengaging the safety was because of his work with the previous holster, and his finger curling into the trigger guard was because he hadn't hit the index mechanism: "then I pulled up, the gun did not release because I had not engaged the mechanism on the index mechanism, and so as I pulled up, I hit that, my finger curled into the trigger guard and I ripped a round into my leg." It sure sounds like he's blaming the holster to me! I didn't hear him say "I wasn't concentrating enough on keeping my finger off of the trigger..."
The truest thing he says: "After the shot went off, my training took over - I called my parents..."
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rose728751
New member
muscle memory confustion
I am new to hand guns,Got my semis in Feb and March, I have a G23 and G27and a BlackHawk Level 3 Tactical SERPA Holster, that is the only holster I had uptill just the other day I got the CrossBreed Super tuck. I have shot close to 9,000 rounds out of the 2 hand guns, only once that I came close to a ND / AD was when I was reholstering the semi that my index finger tip hit the edge of the holster and my finger kind of bent inward and I seen what I was doing and by the time I sent the mental inpuls to my arm, hand, finger,to stop and go in revers, my finger had rubbed the trigger but did not ingage the so called trigger saftey. In that instant my heart rate jumped. I am very, very concious now more than I was befor of where my index finger is when there is a weapon in my hand. Now I am practicing with the CrossBreed Holster.
From what I see is that it was muscle memory confustion
I am new to hand guns,Got my semis in Feb and March, I have a G23 and G27and a BlackHawk Level 3 Tactical SERPA Holster, that is the only holster I had uptill just the other day I got the CrossBreed Super tuck. I have shot close to 9,000 rounds out of the 2 hand guns, only once that I came close to a ND / AD was when I was reholstering the semi that my index finger tip hit the edge of the holster and my finger kind of bent inward and I seen what I was doing and by the time I sent the mental inpuls to my arm, hand, finger,to stop and go in revers, my finger had rubbed the trigger but did not ingage the so called trigger saftey. In that instant my heart rate jumped. I am very, very concious now more than I was befor of where my index finger is when there is a weapon in my hand. Now I am practicing with the CrossBreed Holster.
From what I see is that it was muscle memory confustion
T&Eing the Blackhawk SERPAs....
I saw an interesting YouTube clip of a young guy who was able to DX a Blackhawk SERPA holster in about 2min using dirt & packed snow(it was winter).
I could see a few problems or flaws with the SERPA format but in fairness a lot of "real world" ADs could be due to stress or user error NOT the holster design.
I'm now considering the black SERPA rig for my new M&P full size 9mmNATO. I'm left handed and it's not easy to find a low cost(under $50.00), well made security type holster in left hand. I like the belt/paddle & width-angle options with the polymer Blackhawk SERPAs.
Safariland ALS & SFS rigs are great but lack some of the same features.
ClydeFrog
ps; I like the Blade-tech Revolution line but the Smith & Wesson M&P model is not available yet in left hand.
I saw an interesting YouTube clip of a young guy who was able to DX a Blackhawk SERPA holster in about 2min using dirt & packed snow(it was winter).
I could see a few problems or flaws with the SERPA format but in fairness a lot of "real world" ADs could be due to stress or user error NOT the holster design.
I'm now considering the black SERPA rig for my new M&P full size 9mmNATO. I'm left handed and it's not easy to find a low cost(under $50.00), well made security type holster in left hand. I like the belt/paddle & width-angle options with the polymer Blackhawk SERPAs.
Safariland ALS & SFS rigs are great but lack some of the same features.
ClydeFrog
ps; I like the Blade-tech Revolution line but the Smith & Wesson M&P model is not available yet in left hand.
You guys NEED to watch this video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBIph_q0HzI
Same guy that shot himself, posted this video a couple months before. He is talking about the Serpa holster, quote "The Serpa is a professional holster..................if you are a dynamic stress virgin, your probably going to put a round down your leg if you are not properly trained". Looks like his prophecy came true.
Kinda sounds like the DEA agent right before putting a round in foot, "I am the only one professional enough.........."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBIph_q0HzI
Same guy that shot himself, posted this video a couple months before. He is talking about the Serpa holster, quote "The Serpa is a professional holster..................if you are a dynamic stress virgin, your probably going to put a round down your leg if you are not properly trained". Looks like his prophecy came true.
Kinda sounds like the DEA agent right before putting a round in foot, "I am the only one professional enough.........."
Deep undercover...
The popular chat room fodder about the above mentioned DEA special agent was in the metro Orlando Florida area.
To my limited understanding the sworn federal LE officer discharged a .40S&W round into the side of his leg NOT his foot.
In some extended versions of the video clip he stays upright & asks a woman to then hand him a tactical rifle(M4 5.56mm).
The startled crowd(mostly small children) then screams; NO!!!.
In the same video clip, the DEA agent appears to do a function check of the Glock .40 and says; "does it look clear?" then releases the Glock's magazine.
The "hidden" round(in the chamber) is what causes the injury.
I had a related event in the late 1990s with my 96D .40S&W but didn't have a ND or accident. I'd returned home, removed the Beretta pistol from the holster and released the loaded magazine. I left the slide forward & was about to pull the trigger when I quickly remembered to pull back the slide and look up & down the mag well/chamber. Watching the 165gr JHP fly out was a real "wake-up call"!
Safety is no accident!
Clyde F
The popular chat room fodder about the above mentioned DEA special agent was in the metro Orlando Florida area.
To my limited understanding the sworn federal LE officer discharged a .40S&W round into the side of his leg NOT his foot.
In some extended versions of the video clip he stays upright & asks a woman to then hand him a tactical rifle(M4 5.56mm).
The startled crowd(mostly small children) then screams; NO!!!.
In the same video clip, the DEA agent appears to do a function check of the Glock .40 and says; "does it look clear?" then releases the Glock's magazine.
The "hidden" round(in the chamber) is what causes the injury.
I had a related event in the late 1990s with my 96D .40S&W but didn't have a ND or accident. I'd returned home, removed the Beretta pistol from the holster and released the loaded magazine. I left the slide forward & was about to pull the trigger when I quickly remembered to pull back the slide and look up & down the mag well/chamber. Watching the 165gr JHP fly out was a real "wake-up call"!
Safety is no accident!
Clyde F
Tex...
I guess by his logic if you put a round in your leg you're a dynamic stress virgin.
Lee Paige did a lot of things wrong leading up to him shooting himself. Having an ego that precludes having humility and respecting a very powerful tool was probably a contributing factor.
The people who scare me the most are the ones who have an answer for everything, love to debate, love to hear themself talk, love to teach other people, but bristle at being told what to do. Eager to give instruction but reluctant to seek it is a bad combination.
I guess by his logic if you put a round in your leg you're a dynamic stress virgin.
Lee Paige did a lot of things wrong leading up to him shooting himself. Having an ego that precludes having humility and respecting a very powerful tool was probably a contributing factor.
The people who scare me the most are the ones who have an answer for everything, love to debate, love to hear themself talk, love to teach other people, but bristle at being told what to do. Eager to give instruction but reluctant to seek it is a bad combination.
Count0.....+ one on your last comment....
The people who scare me the most are the ones who have an answer for everything, love to debate, love to hear themself talk, love to teach other people, but bristle at being told what to do. Eager to give instruction but reluctant to seek it is a bad combination.
Rod
The people who scare me the most are the ones who have an answer for everything, love to debate, love to hear themself talk, love to teach other people, but bristle at being told what to do. Eager to give instruction but reluctant to seek it is a bad combination.
Rod
Mike Irwin
Staff
"He didn't violate the gun safety laws intentionally"
Nope, but he did violate Irwin's Rule, which is...
Don't be a frigging idiot when you're handling your guns.
Sort of a catch-all rule to cover all situations...
Nope, but he did violate Irwin's Rule, which is...
Don't be a frigging idiot when you're handling your guns.
Sort of a catch-all rule to cover all situations...
"Nothing wrong with he Serpa. This guy is just a idiot. He doesn't know how to draw. He flips off the safety with the gun still in the holster. He engages the trigger the minute it clears the holster. I am curious as to what training he is referring to. He certainly didn't appear to have any.
__________________"
Nothing wrong with flipping the saftey off when the gun is in the holster, some guns dont even have safeties as you know but putting your fingeron the trigger that early is a no-no. That finger shouldnt be in that trigger guard until he is on getting his sight picture, sure of his target or about to fire.
__________________"
Nothing wrong with flipping the saftey off when the gun is in the holster, some guns dont even have safeties as you know but putting your fingeron the trigger that early is a no-no. That finger shouldnt be in that trigger guard until he is on getting his sight picture, sure of his target or about to fire.
secret_agent_man
Moderator
Sort of what I thought. And now he's a movie star. On youtube. In a show he wrote and directed. Go figure.
I want to call my Blackhawk Serpa duty holster a "great holster" but I can't knowing that it is banned from some ranges, it can get fouled with snow, mud, and other debris and that if you aren't careful, can allow for an unintentional discharge. Knowing the above, I still love my holster. I can draw lightning fast and be on target when other officers are still monkeying with their holster's security mechanisms.
I won't recommend it to everyone because there are those out there who can't hold a gun without putting their finger on the trigger. Also, if they put some membrane over the trigger finger release so it won't get fouled, then great.
I won't recommend it to everyone because there are those out there who can't hold a gun without putting their finger on the trigger. Also, if they put some membrane over the trigger finger release so it won't get fouled, then great.