Blackhawk Serpa Holster = Negligent Discharge?

I see the Serpa as having a design that can create a safety risk. As we all know, there are a bunch of examples of people shooting themselves on the draw with these things. In addition to the incident that prompted this thread, I was just told about another one in my locale a couple of weeks ago at an IDPA match.

I also think the fact that a number of the "big name" instructors and schools won't allow them in their classes is pretty telling...

Say what you will about "shooter error," if the design of the holster creates a risk unless you do things "just right," I see it as being a bad design. I don't understand why these things have such a host of staunch defenders...it's not like you can't get a better holster for the same money.
 
Well, by the logic put forth by some here, there have apparently never been any ND's while drawing from any holster prior to the invention of the SERPA. We should all immediately head to the Blackhawk factory, find the inventor/designers and bring Judge Dredd with us, so that he can execute swift justice on those poor souls...(dripping sarcasm - over)
 
(dripping sarcasm - over)
Click to expand...
Good. Glad you got that off your chest. Feel better? :D


I dont think logic has anything to do with it. There seems to be a definite trend here, and enough so that they are no longer accepted for use where other holsters are. What other holsters in use today seem to have the same or similar issues?

This isnt the first time the Serpa has drawn attention due to failures either. I remember a couple of months back there were complaints of failures to release the gun when the release got fouled.
 
Maybe I missed something.

What I saw as the guy released the safety as he was drawing the gun. Then his finger went to the trigger as the gun was coming out of the holster.

Now I don't use a Serpa Holster but I have a lot of years (since 1966) shooting 1911 pistols. Two things I learned from the start that still work today 45 years later.

You draw the Pistol you don't release the safety until its pointed at the target.

You don't put your finger on the trigger until you have the pistol pointed at the target.

If either of the two above acts would have occurred, we wouldn't be discussing it.

If, and I saw no sign of this, the gun went off in the holster and the holster enclosed the trigger, then maybe I'd blame the holster.

When you grip a 1911, regardless of the type of holster, you thumb is resting above the safety, your trigger finger is along the slide on the other side. As you extend it toward the target your thumb slides down taking off the safety as your trigger finger goes to the trigger.

Disengaging the safety as you pull the gun out of the holster ain't the way to do it.

Maybe the individual needs to look at Blackhawk's Close Quarter Concealed holsters. You can't put your finger in the trigger guard because you need it to release the lock.

I'm more then willing to entertain any comments where I am wrong here.
 
Last edited:
You draw the Pistol you don't release the safety until its pointed at the target.

You don't put your finger on the trigger until you have the pistol pointed at the target.

If either of the two above acts would have occurred, we wouldn't be discussing it.

If, and I saw no sign of this, the gun went off in the holster and the holster enclosed the trigger, then maybe I'd blame the holster.
Click to expand...


That's always how I draw all my guns! 100% Correct. Especially my 3lbs 1911 trigger.
 
kraigwy said:
Maybe the individual needs to look at Blackhawk's Close Quarter Concealed holsters. You can't put your finger in the trigger guard because you need it to release the lock.
Click to expand...


The holster in the video has the same layout as the CQC Serpa's. The only difference in the CQC and the holster in the vid is that the CQC is cut away in the front for a slightly quicker presentation.

I have both the standard Serpa, and the CQC Serpa. The trigger guard is covered in both by the retention mechanism.
 
I don't have one for my 1911s but I use one for my Beretta, I studied it again. I don't see how its possible for the holster to be at fault if the "Four basic rules of handgun safety" are followed.

Treat every gun as it was loaded, (he was shooting, so that dosen't apply)

Never point at anything you don't want to shoot (like a leg)

Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot (the dude blew that one big time, and that is the cause of the ND)

Besure of your backstop (well the bullet did hit the ground safely after it went through his leg, so I guess I can't comment on that one).

A fifth would be not disenage your safety until you're ready to shoot, but I don't like that one, I replace it with NEVER TRUST A MANUEL SAFETY.

Still since he disengaged the safety while removing the gun from the holster, then he violated that one too.

No Sir, this is a pure 100% case of shooter error. Sorry can't blame the holster on this one.

Most ranges I shoot at, and any match or training session I conduct, violating the third rule would get you kicked off the range.
 
I don't have one for my 1911s but I use one for my Beretta, I studied it again. I don't see how its possible for the holster to be at fault if the "Four basic rules of handgun safety" are followed.
Click to expand...

A fifth would be not disenage your safety until you're ready to shoot, but I don't like that one, I replace it with NEVER TRUST A MANUEL SAFETY.
Click to expand...

Well I guess you could ad a sixth or seventh or more safety rules to the 4 rules and come up with reasons this should not happen, but I don't think coming up with more addresses anything not already covered by the four for this instance.

Still since he disengaged the safety while removing the gun from the holster, then he violated that one too.
Click to expand...
No, actually he did not if the video is to be believed. The thumb safety was disengaged unintentionally as a result of trying to work the mechanism on the thumb drive holster that he was no longer wearing.
 
I think he can be trusted in what he says. He didn't violate the gun safety laws intentionally. That being said, it isn't the holsters fault either, as Grebner says for himself. Just an unfortunate accident due to confusing different holster actions.
 
He didn't violate the gun safety laws intentionally
Click to expand...

Intentionally or not, he screwed up.

I don't believe any one screws up intentionally. He said his "finger fell on the trigger".................Pardon me, the CDC holster is designed so as your finger is extended to the outside of the holster. As you pull the gun out the finger falls a long side the slide. If it "falls on the trigger" you screwed up.

Well I guess you could ad a sixth or seventh or more safety rules to the 4 rules and come up with reasons this should not happen, but I don't think coming up with more addresses anything not already covered by the four for this instance.
Click to expand...

I threw that 5th regarding the safety in for clarification, meaning the safety shouldn't be released until the gun is on target. But I added, NEVER TRUST A MECHANICAL SAFETY.

My contention is, if the four basic rules were followed, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Sure, guns screw up, that I agree, I've had it happen my self. I had a Bullseye Wad gun double a time or two. It was an accident, but the only damage was I missed. I dropped a few points but I didn't hurt anything.

If you shoot at all, you're going to have accidents. Its a given, I've had more then my share but the Four Basics saved me as they would in the video if he'd followed them.

I harp on this because we have a bunch of new shooters that read these forums. We can't teach them to blame the equipment. If we have equipment failures (and we will have equipment failures) we can have accidental discharges. It the four basic firearm safety rules are followed, the accidental discharges wouldn't cause any harm.
 
I harp on this because we have a bunch of new shooters that read these forums. We can't teach them to blame the equipment. If we have equipment failures (and we will have equipment failures) we can have accidental discharges. It the four basic firearm safety rules are followed, the accidental discharges wouldn't cause any harm.
Click to expand...

Well said Sir, and this is why I always take the time to read your posts on almost any topic.

I bought a CQC Serpa for my Glock 17 when I had it and never had an issue with it. I even used it for local competitions messing around, never a problem. Reaching for the gun my finger straight out would disengage the serpa... draw straight up... my finger would be along the frame... as normal draw from any holster.... point at target... extend out... once out... ONLY then did my trigger finger move from the frame to the trigger and bang at my intended target.

I recently just got another Serpa holster for free for a 1911.... after watching the video and listening to people blame the holster i tried my hardest to recreate this event.... albeit I cleared my firearm first.;)

Even when I arced my finger in and pressed that serpa lock a lot harder than you would ever need... and ripped the gun from the holster with all my fury... I could not get the thing to dry fire upon the draw, my finger ended on the frame every time. I even had the manual safety off to try it but still no "bang".

I trust them, and I think the guy in the video couldn't have done a better job because accidents DO happen.... they suck no matter what.... but he didn't blame the gear.... or try and go sue someone... he admitted his fault, and posted the video for all of us to learn from it.

On the otherside of the coin we have people who sue because they spill hot coffee on themselves.:eek:
 
I give this guy props for putting it on youtube and talking about his ND. It was his fault and he is man enough to admit it. He blames the holster which may have made it difficult, but ultimatley its the user's fault. Like someone said booger hook off the trigger lol. I give him respect to show us his failure in order for all other shooters to benefit from it.
 
It looks like he missed his foot by about an inch.

I'm assuming he must beleive that it's important to be able to fight CQ with a handgun, for him to spend time and money on it. I think it's ironic that so far the biggest threat to his safety has been himself.
 
This ND had nothing to do with the holster other than that he wasn't prepared and he obviously expected the other holster. The Serpas are excellent holsters and I own and have used them many times without a single issue.
 
We can't teach them to blame the equipment. If we have equipment failures (and we will have equipment failures) we can have accidental discharges. It the four basic firearm safety rules are followed, the accidental discharges wouldn't cause any harm.
Click to expand...
While this is true, it's still important to take the time to think about the equipment you're using.

I believe a little thought in this instance might have convinced the shooter not to use a thumb-release holster and then immediately switch to a gun with a thumb-release safety in a holster with a trigger-finger release.

That didn't CAUSE the problem, but it was certainly a contributor. There's no question that if he had done everything right there would have been no incident, but that still wouldn't have made switching between equipment that is basically incompatible on the same range trip a good idea.
 
I posted this on the other thread but it was a dup thread so it was closed and I want to bring this point up again:

Training with multiple weapons and equipment causes confused muscle memory and decreases your proficiency with any single weapon system.

I'm not saying that skeet shooting makes you forget how to use your deer rifle. And if you have different models of handguns in different calibers - target shooting at the range is not going to be counter-productive. That type of activity is not a high-stress activity.

But if your're doing something like "CQC" training and you're switching between two different models of handgun in two similar but different holsters - you are messing yourself up. You are not training - you're in a constant state of untraining.
 
But if you're doing something like "CQC" training and you're switching between two different models of handgun in two similar but different holsters - you are messing yourself up. You are not training - you're in a constant state of untraining.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I have to disagree again.

First, I'm not harping on this for the sake of argument. I really need to know how this can happen before I get someone hurt, not because I'm old and set in my ways (although there is a lot to the latter).

I shoot several pistols/revolvers w/several types different holsters, including two CQC's (one for my Beretta, one for a revolver). Some leather holsters from my custom pancake holster for my 1911s, and Hoyt Breakfront for my duty revolver.

Everyone of them allow for the trigger finger to be extended along the slide or cylinder as the gun comes out.

Our club has some sort of match every other week. USPDA, Steel, ICORE, Run 'n Gun, Bowling pins. All require that you draw from the holster. I always shoot a second gun, requiring a holster change.

I just can't understand how changing gear (holsters and guns) would cause "your finger to fall on the trigger". The CQC requires your finger to lay along side of the holster to release the switch. As you pull the gun out, your finger slides up the holster and falls naturally along the slide, (or along the frame under the cylinder of a revolver), as you pull the gun from the holster, the finger goes to the trigger and you point at and push toward the target.

My two main guns for USPDA are my Beretta (CQC) and my Gold Cup (thumb break). The grip of the pistol is as you start to draw is pretty much the same, forming a V with your thumb and fingers as you come down on the grip, the thumb released the thumb break (if there is one) and goes to the safety to be released as you point toward the target. At the same time, the trigger finger is outside the holster, extended, and falls along side the frame as the gun clears the holster, going to the trigger and you point at the target.

There is a bit of difference in the grip of my revolvers for ICORE. On my M-64 I use my old duty Hoyt break front. With that one you grab the butt of the gun, extend your trigger finger along the out side of the holster and with the thumb and remaining fingers draw the revolver toward the front, and your finger goes to the trigger as you push toward the target. My second gun in ICORE is my 642 pocket revolver. I use it in the Blackhawk CQC, it works the same as the CQCs for my Semis.

The only difference in my "times" is do to my reloading. If the course requires several shots, then of course I'm faster with the Beretta's 18 rounds vs the Colt's 7. But to get the first shot, there is no difference.

I have a lot of different holsters, and I just can't understand how switching would cause you to loose out and go to the trigger while the gun comes out of the holster.

Since this thread started, I've gone out back several times to do some testing. The only way I can do it, is if I make a conscience effort to force my finger on the trigger.

It's all about muscle memory I agree. If you develop that memory to NEVER PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU'RE ON TARGET AND READY TO SHOOT. then you're gonna do that regardless of what type holster you use.

If someone here can tell me of a different holster that would cause this problem, please tell me, I'll go buy one to play with. But the Thumb Break VS release on the CQC just doesn't work. I deal with a lot of new shooters and really want to know where I'm wrong in the off chance I get someone hurt.
 
Geez....I agree with Jim Marsh's comments on the first page entirely. They couldn't have designed it any better for a negligent discharge if they had tried. Too, it's my belief that the whole issue of retention in the holster is a LEO issue, and not one that in a civilian CCW situation is of real significance.

In a real life CCW shooting, the fine motor skills that require you to release the gun, using your trigger finger pushing in towards the trigger as the gun moves, are GONE. Short of a world class combat shooter, (and one who uses only one type of weapon and only one holster), none of us is likely capable of keeping that trigger finger where it belongs....it's just not worth the risk. Get a different, and better designed self defense holster.

Rod
 
Sorry Rodfac,

There is more to pistol shooting then LE and SD.

Far more rounds are fired in action type competition then both the two above and that's where I'm addressing my concerns. Retention holsters ARE required in most of these compititions.

none of us is likely capable of keeping that trigger finger where it belongs....
Click to expand...

Thats not true, its training and muscle memory. At every place I shoot, putting your finger on the trigger before you're lined up on the target will get you removed from the range.

Again, for safety sake, I'm trying to find out what type of holster will cause the mistake of "finger falling on the trigger" before it's suppose to. I will get one and try it.

I'm searching for answers, if an equipment problem exist, I wont to find it before an accident happens.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top