Big & Slow vs. Small & Fast

I'd prefer something bigger than a .243 all things equal, but like pointed out above, there are other factors that roll into killing an animal.

I've put great shots on whitetails and I've only dropped one dead where it stood.

With antelope, I've exactly the opposite. Most drop dead where they stood, but I've had a few run a bit afterwards.
 
I've put great shots on whitetails and I've only dropped one dead where it stood.
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My experience has been similar. I've never lost one (knock on wood), but I've also never had one drop on the spot. All lung shots.
 
I bought my my son a 243 when he was a teenager, he shot a couple of deer with it and it seemed ok, none of them dropped in their tracks.
Fast forward to when he comes home from basic training and we go antelope hunting.
We spent a good part of one morning stalking a good size buck crawling to 125yds, we wait a good while for him to stand up and he puts at Sierra 100gr. gameking right behind his front shoulder, I seen the hair fly on the perfect shot.
The buck stands there as if nothing happened, then begins to eat grass! I have him reload and shoot him again, same spot, he reacts this time by trotting about 50yds and laying down head up looking around, he did that for a few minutes before finally dieing.
I realize that was probably a once in a lifetime extraordinary hunting experience and it's not indicative of what happens 99% of the time with a 243 but its never happened with any other cartridge I've seen.
I came home from that trip and bought a 7-08 take-off barrel off GB and put it on a week later, I believe I still have that 243 barrel laying around somewhere.
That will never happen with the 358 with the right bullets, deer/antelope know when they're hit by a 200gr. 358 bullet.
 
jackstrawIII:
One phenomenon I've noticed is that deer react differently based on what they're hit with:

1. High velocity bullets (and arrows) tend to make a deer bolt away before expiring.
2. Slower bullets tend to make deer swoon or trot away before expiring.

Anyone else noticed this? Any theories on why?
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I shoot deer with small/fast, kinda in-between and big/slow.
So I don't see the same pattern you are. If they run off, they run.

Small Fast: 130 gr 270 and lighter about half the time they drop - half the time they run.

Same with in-betweens: 165gr 308, and 180gr 7.5x55, 30-06 & 303B- some run, some drop.

Now, I've had 2 spectacular Bang-Flops with the above,
1 with the 270 and 1 with the 7.5x55.


Big Slow: 200gr 8mmx57 , 200gr 35W - some run, some drop.
BUT my 9.3x62 shooting a 286NPT is 100% dead right there on deer and hogs!
They may kick a little bit, but don't get up!
 
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It depends on where the deer is hit. I know they do fall down faster when shot with a 130 gr .270 than they do with an 85 gr .243 but I consider this small and fast vs big and fast. Did shoot one with a 185gr round led ball once, fell in his tracks but it was a neck shot not a behind the shoulder shot. .50 ball at about 1700 fps.
 
reynolds357 said:
I have seen deer bolt and deer trot off. I have never noticed any relationship to what they were shot with.
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Same here. Seems to relate more to where the deer is hit and if it is relaxed or alerted when shot. High shoulder shots tend to make deer bolt backward and gut shots tend to make deer hunch up. I've had deer that were relaxed and feeding, go back to feeding after being shot behind the shoulders and thru the boiler room, only to start to stagger and fall dead shortly after.
 
One class of cartridges kills instantly nearly all the time in my experience, the big 6.5's, the 264 win mag drops deer and antelope like they've been electrocuted. It doesn't without a cost though, bloodshot meat and 500rd barrel life.
My current gun is a 6.5prc, seems like a nice compromise between performance and excess. I've only shot 2 animals with it and it did well, this deer ran a little ways before dropping{40yds} but a blind man could follow the blood trail the 129 sst made.
 
Double K said:
One class of cartridges kills instantly nearly all the time in my experience, the big 6.5's, the 264 win mag drops deer and antelope like they've been electrocuted. It doesn't without a cost though, bloodshot meat and 500rd barrel life.
My current gun is a 6.5prc, seems like a nice compromise between performance and excess. I've only shot 2 animals with it and it did well, this deer ran a little ways before dropping{40yds} but a blind man could follow the blood trail the 129 sst made.
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I have had a 264 Win mag or two at all times for the last 35 years. I love them. With a good stainless barrel, they are good for over 1000, rounds for a hunting rifle. The rifle might start to ever so slightly open up at around 750 rounds, but still sub moa to past 1000. With the orig non stainless win. factory barrels, 500 was probably about right.
 
I never had a problem with the accuracy with the three 264's I had just the velocity, after 500rds it would drop 100fps, I'd up the load, it would drop again by the time a good zero was gotten and so on. You could see the throat erosion without a borescope.
They were all chrome moly barrels though, last one I had was a Remington Classic the year it came out 1986. I used a heavy load of IMR 7828 with 120 nosler bt's to get 3450fps, that was a real barrel burner but an incredible long range load. Maximum point blank range was 420yds with that load/bullet.
Not that remarkable today with cartridges like the 6.5x300 weatherby and 26 nosler using really high bc bullets but in it's day....
With the barrel steels available today they should last longer, it would be interesting to see a definitive test.
 
I bought a Sauer Atacama last year right before antelope season, worked up a load and took it hunting, still looking for a pound of RL26 which is supposed to be thee powder for 6.5prc.


 
reynolds357 said:
I guess I do my fair share of "shooting" then. Its been over 30 years since I have not killed a medium or large game animal I shot.
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If someone gave you a live prime steer with the stipulation you must shoot it but could not shoot it in the head, how far back would you get, and what angle would you shoot it? Would you use a quartering shot through the front shoulders or a quartering shot through the back hip? Would you shoot it through the shoulder with the bullet exiting out the off shoulder?

My point is that, given a head shot is chancy on a game animal, the next best shot with the least meat damage is behind the shoulder, through the ribs. Why so many hunters are willing to trade meat damage for what appears to be bragging rights in taking a game animal has always been a mystery to me. To someone like me who grew up in poverty, wasting meat by shooting through the best portions is indefensible.
 
dahermit

About the time the 260 remington came out nosler introduced a 100gr ballistic tip billed as a medium game bullet.
Is shot a small antelope buck 4 times with them at under 200yds, everyone of them either blew up on the shoulder or ribs, I ended up killing him with a 22 pistol.
I wrote a nasty email to nosler, I heard later they put a thicker jacket on the 100gr. bt's
My point is that it does matter what bullet you use even on thin skinned game like pronghorns on broadside shots.
 
dahermit said:
If someone gave you a live prime steer with the stipulation you must shoot it but could not shoot it in the head, how far back would you get, and what angle would you shoot it? Would you use a quartering shot through the front shoulders or a quartering shot through the back hip? Would you shoot it through the shoulder with the bullet exiting out the off shoulder?

My point is that, given a head shot is chancy on a game animal, the next best shot with the least meat damage is behind the shoulder, through the ribs. Why so many hunters are willing to trade meat damage for what appears to be bragging rights in taking a game animal has always been a mystery to me. To someone like me who grew up in poverty, wasting meat by shooting through the best portions is indefensible.
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I dont disagree with you, but lets look at it this way:
Its in prime rut. A big buck is chasing a doe. He is going away at a slight angle. The only reason I am shooting him is that he is a trophy. Its rutting and will taste like junk anyway. Best case, he makes jerky. Worst case, he feeds my hunting dogs. So, if the best shot I get is straight up the but, I will let the 7 Rum, 7 WSM, or 257 Wby work its magic.
 
Double K said:
About the time the 260 remington came out nosler introduced a 100gr ballistic tip billed as a medium game bullet.
Is shot a small antelope buck 4 times with them at under 200yds, everyone of them either blew up on the shoulder or ribs, I ended up killing him with a 22 pistol.
I wrote a nasty email to nosler, I heard later they put a thicker jacket on the 100gr. bt's
My point is that it does matter what bullet you use even on thin skinned game like pronghorns on broadside shots.
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When the 7mm ballistic tip first came out, I had a similar experience with 7 Rem mag on a large buck.
 
I've seen more deer lost with small and fast than I have with big and slow. I used a 30-06 with 180 grain soft points most of my life. I now like 165 grain Nosler ballistic tips better.
 
reynolds357 said:
I dont disagree with you, but lets look at it this way:
Its in prime rut. A big buck is chasing a doe. He is going away at a slight angle. The only reason I am shooting him is that he is a trophy. Its rutting and will taste like junk anyway. Best case, he makes jerky. Worst case, he feeds my hunting dogs. So, if the best shot I get is straight up the but, I will let the 7 Rum, 7 WSM, or 257 Wby work its magic.
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In Alaska they have a law (Wanton Waste), where in they cite a person for willfully wasting meat of game animals. The scenario you describe is arguably wanton waste.

I have never had a deer that tasted bad...certainly none that would require feeding to the dogs. It is frequently said that one has to know how to cook deer meat. As evidenced by the fact that most people in my area reduce deer to summer sausage instead of using the meat fresh, they do not. But that is no reason to intentionally take a shot that destroys the meat. If the "shooter" had not taken the shot in your scenario, maybe the next hunter would have treated that treasure trove of meat differently as well as collecting a trophy.
 
It's possible to get a deer that's inedible but in my experience very rare.
I shot a young whitetail buck about 25 years ago that was so gamey my neighbors at the time complained when I grilled it outside. The deer didn't look any different, it was a one shot kill, nothing extraordinary about it. My wife and I've probably killed and eaten 30 deer from the same tree stand that tasted wonderful. I had to feed that deer to the neighborhood dogs, it's rare but happens. btw I've never had an old buck that the loins or rounds didn't taste good, grind the rest and either make sausage or heavily seasoned burger.

All that being said the family and I love wild game meats so what we think is just great may not be to someone else.
 
Double K said:
It's possible to get a deer that's inedible but in my experience very rare.
I shot a young whitetail buck about 25 years ago that was so gamey my neighbors at the time complained when I grilled it outside. The deer didn't look any different, it was a one shot kill, nothing extraordinary about it. My wife and I've probably killed and eaten 30 deer from the same tree stand that tasted wonderful. I had to feed that deer to the neighborhood dogs, it's rare but happens. btw I've never had an old buck that the loins or rounds didn't taste good, grind the rest and either make sausage or heavily seasoned burger.

All that being said the family and I love wild game meats so what we think is just great may not be to someone else.
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Grilling deer meat is not a good way of preparing it. It is no wonder that you thought it was "gamey".

If you had taken the same piece of deer meat, cut into 1/2 inch (no thicker) strips, floured them and fried them until the pink is just about to disappear, eat it warm (some dip in ketchup) I can assure you that your attitude about deer meat would change.

In short, the problem is not that some Whitetail deer are "gamey", the problem is, as I have stated, is that you and many others do not know how to cook it.
 
Whatever, the only red meat we eat at my house is venison and like I said earlier it's almost never gamey.
As far as me not knowing how to cook you have no idea about my cooking skills.
Smoked antelope meatloaf.


Deer loin steaks with bacon wrapped peppers grilled to perfection.
 
Whitetail Deer roast:

Take any large piece of deer meat and place it in the center of a large piece of Aluminum foil.

Dot the top with small pieces of Butter.

Squeeze the juice of an entire lemon over the meat.

Sprinkle a full envelope of Lipton's Onion Soup mix (not the smaller "recipe" size).

Seal the roast in the foil and bake at .350 degrees in a shallow pan in your oven.

When the roast is done, open the foil, scrape the juices and and the remnants of the onion soup mix into a sauce pan and make gravy with it.

Let the roast "rest" as you make gravy.

Slice the roast (I always bone-out deer meat), into 1/4 inch slices.

Place the slices on a plate and pour the Onion/Lemon gravy over the meat (important!) and over your mashed potatoes.

Note that this recipe does NOT WORK with beef...the meat must have that characteristic "wild" taste (very similar to lamb), in order for that recipe to work.

Stop shooting deer in the shoulders, neck (bone the neck out for a roast), hips, etc. And stop wasting good deer meat by reducing it to Summer sausage...it is just too damned tastey to waste it like that.

Years ago, when in my bachelor days, my brother called me and invited me to dinner. I told him that I already had a deer roast in the oven (as above). He thought that I just did not want to come for dinner. I told him that was not the case...I really did have a roast in the oven. To which he said...when it is done, bring it down and I will have my wife make mashed potatoes.

When I got there and his wife made gravy (as in the recipe above), the three of us fell upon that gravy laden roast and mashed potatoes. We ended up eating the entire roast. When we pushed our chairs back and realized what we had done, my brother charctoristly, with his mock seriousness said, "That was not fit for pigs!"
 
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