BHP vs. Beretta re: Reliability

Well, Shake, I am aiming at getting the BHP I looked at a couple of day ago at my range. NIB Practical with target sights, my 5% membership discount and 30 days of free range time. Hows that jealousy doing? :D

Seriously, though. Thanks for all you comments. They have been very helpful. Good Shooting.
 
I have 4 S/A mags. I like em.

They`re tough to fully load them until you break them in. If you shoot regularly, it`ll only take a few times.

Mec Gar makes 10 rounders for both the 9 & 40. 13 rounders are tough to find and can get expensive. Check www.cdnninvestments.com for the 10 rounders.
 
Hello. First, I really do recommend the site mentioned by Bartholomew Roberts; it is excellent in my view. He went to alot of work on it and I find nothing there that I disagree with. Certainly, my agreeing or disagreeing means nothing, but I really do think it's a very useful site.

I have had very good luck with the KRD SA 17rnd magazines.

I'd have to go count, but I've got 6 or 8 of the things that I've shot and some I've not.

All of them work fine with ball in all of my HPs.
Most of them work fine with JHPs in most of my HPs that are pre-MkII or MkIII. All but 1 or 2 work 100% with all ammo tested in them in all of my MkIII HPs. The small percentage that didn't work perfectly with all types of JHPs could likely be tweaked to do so, but since I have plenty, I simply marked them and use them only for range work.

Could I not get MecGar 13 rnd magazines, I'd likely go with the KRDs for self-defense use after testing.

The steel seems very good in that it has not yet burred at all around the magazine release notch as have some ProMags that I've tried.

Best.
 
To Shake:That statement takes the cake, write a huge paragraph about how the Hi Power is much better than the Beretta, then tell the guy its resale value is better? I'm sure Higgins is going to do a bunch of research on which gun is better with the intent of buying it only to sell it in a couple of months

The facts are these: A .- By your statement you prove that you are not aware of human nature. B.- Human nature dictates that as fast as the average person buys a handgun he soon gets bored with it and wants something that he percieves will be better or make him happier. Human nature does not change. Reading some of the diaries of Romans who went to market 2,000 years ago reveals that we are no more advanced today than they were 2,000 years ago. The chances are great that the Beretta will be sold during his lifetime and probably much sooner than expected. The High Power will yeld a much heftier resale price. Any one who deals in handguns sure will not argue that point. I see the resale price of used handguns and I know what they bring and how fast various models move. The High Power is scarce because it has not been on the market for over a year. The Beretta is in full production and available everywhere. Common sense indicates which gun will be more desirable and have more value. People always want what they suddenly find out they cannot have. It is again only human nature and the price of such weapons reflect that. W.R.
 
To Shake:Wild Romanian left out part of that sentence. What he wanted to add was "TO ME". There are a lot of people on this BB who seem to be very good about deciding how everything should feel for everyone else. As for myself, and many others, the Beretta feels about as good as a handgun can feel.

One of the most famous traits of the High Power is the fantastic feel and pointablibly of the weapon. The very first think a new shooter says to me and I have heard this hundreds of times over the last 35 years is simply this. They cannot believe how well the High Power feels in the hand. To date I can say without a shadow of hestitaion that on my range I have never ever heard anyone make the same statement about the Beretta. As a matter of fact when people who are about to buy a handgun pick up the Beretta and then the High Power they first comment they make to me is "Gee the High Power feels great". They never ever say the same thing about the Beretta when comparing the two side by side.

Quote: This would be true for a shooter who has not learned trigger control. Anyone who practices with a DA/SA can shoot it just fine. Ernest Langdon happens to do OK with his Beretta wouldn't you say?

100 per cent false. I base this on 35 years of seeing people struggle on the range with the Da/Sa type firarms. If what you say was even remotely true you would see quite a few of these weapons being used in bullseye matches. They are not. Even with practice I have seen scores of people under the stress of a timed match miss the entire target with a DA/Sa. These people were not beginners, they were excellent shots with years of experience and they practice a lot.


Quote: WR knows as well as everyone here that 99% of handgun owners will never strip the frame of their auto. Even if they do, if you are careful and don't take a ball peen hammer to it, you aren't going to damage it.

Anyone who would make such a statement has never tried to strip one of these weapons down. Even with the proper special roll pin punches you had better have a bag full of extra cheap sheet metal replacement pins. Also the pin holes in the soft aluminum frame are easily damaged or elongated when removed.

You say he will probably never have to strip the gun to the frame. Well probably not if nothing ever breaks or wears out or if he does not accidently drop the gun in the mud or dirt. We all know of course that things like this never happen in this perfect world or ours, now do they.
If he does need to do this he will probably have to have spend a lot of money having the factory or a good gunsmith work on it for him. Contrast this to changing a part by himself in a few minutes with the High Power. If the need ever arises he isn't screwed financially by owning the Beretta. Better to buy the better gun in the first place and if something does go wrong it can be fixed easier, cheaper and faster. This is not a contradiciton. If you use any machine long enough it will eventually need some new parts. All parts wear out eventually.


Quote: tell me their isn't a hidden meaning in that statement. What are the Hi Power frames AFTER 1993 made with? Cheap cast frames?The Beretta's "cheap aluminum frame" will outlive probably 98% of their owners. The other 2% may shoot enough to possibly wear one out -- then, when and if they do, Beretta will replace it.

I see that you have had little experience with aluminum frame handguns. I have seen more aluminum frames fail that I can count. I have seen alumimum frames breake off side rails and even exhibit severe wear in as little as 400 or 500 rounds of firing depending on the make and manufacturer. When slide to frame fit wears accuracy suffers. Drop an alumimum frame handgun and it is all over except the crying. I have seen forged frame handguns hit the concrete floor at gun shows and suffer little more than cosmetic damage. Do not try this with an aluminum or cast iron frame handgun.

Cheap cast frames , you bet your sweet bootie. No castiting by its vary nature can survive much of an impact on the floor or rocks of the outback. I once worked in the automobile industry and I know how fragile castings can be. It two guns both have the same heat treatment the forging is always the superior weapon. It takes much more abuse tham the casting. Lets face it all casting have air holes in them. If you look at a lot of firearms that are made of castings the first thing you will notice is that they are made thicker. This has to be done because of safety. Ever look at a Ruger's bolt guns lug raceways. You can actually see the air pits in them. This is caused by the air attempting to escape when it is forced out of the hot casting. Not all air can be forced out making the casting less strong then an equally thick forging. This is why they make the cast guns thicker.

There are still a few old time gunsmiths in my area that have seen it all. None of them prefer to work on much less own a cast frame handgun. They know how easily a cast frame gun will crack if they try to tighten up the slide to frame fit. As a matter of fact the famous Wayne Novac refuses to even work on the new Cast Frame High powers in regards to tightning up the slide to frame fit.

In conclusion I will state that I own many handguns both old and new but I sure as hell know an old fashion quality made product compared to the junk that is being made today. It is made so that it can be manufacuted quicker and cheaper not better. Like it or not that is the bottom line when it comes to manufacurting today and its profitablilty. You pay for what you get. Pay less and expect a lot less because you sure as hell will get what you pay for.

I really do hate to hurt peoples feeling because I know that some of them love their handguns more than they love there wives but lets face it I am not going to lie to them when my hard earned years of experience has taught me otherwise. I really think that many of them either being inexperienced or brainwashed by the slick gunmagazines simply do not know the difference between a really first class handgun and the new wave trash now being marketed.

I do know this for sure. I have had some people come back and thank me for my advice because I prevented them from wasting their hard earned money and I have had othe people that I know personally come back to me and tell me they wish they had taken my advice because they did indeed have to learn the hard way. W.R.
 
:rolleyes:

Lets face the facts Wild Romanian. You haven't ever heard a good word spoken by anyone about any handgun unless it happens to be a SIG 210, an original BHP, a Colt 1911, or CZ75. Truth is all other guns are junk to you, correct?

Virtually every post you make on this BB contains the same phrases i.e cheap sheet metal, can't hit anything with DA/SA, junk being made today, feels like my electric drill, blasters, blah blah blah, etc. etc.

Why not just make a blanket thread and cover it all since all you will have to say is everything else is junk?

I'll tell you what, I'll arrange to have you shoot an IDPA course against Ernest Langdon. You can shoot a customized Browning Hi Power of your choosing and he can shoot a POS aluminum framed, DA/SA POS trigger, exploding, three inch grouping, frame cracking, huge, poorly balanced, stock Beretta 92FS.

After you clean his clock, which you surely will with your superior firearm, you can explain to him the drawbacks of the DA/SA style of firearm. You can also tell him what a fool he is to have selected such a POS to compete in IDPA with.

Give me a break
:barf:

I'm out of here!

Shake
 
Simply wrong information

As a matter of fact the famous Wayne Novac refuses to even work on the new Cast Frame High powers in regards to tightning up the slide to frame fit.
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WR, this is not only wrong. I have even pointed out to you that the information is wrong before.

Novak's routinely does such work on .40 Hi-Powers and those Hi-Power's only come in the cast frame version.

Here's Novak's price list:

http://www.novaksights.com/Gun Shop/function options.htm#Browning Hi Power

There are no qualifications at all listed for slide-to-frame fit work.

Kurt Wickmann, who worked on Browning's for ten years at Novak's, did my cast frame Hi-Power and had no problems with tightening the slide-to-frame fit.

Its one thing to express your opinion on a subject, its another thing to deliberately spread misinformation after you have been corrected on the subject previously.
 
Let me say that I readily admit to being a newbie when it comes to BHP's. Moreover, I've not been around to hear what's transpired previously on this board on many of the above topics. So, I am going to stay out of much of the above debates.

Despite the differing opinions on many of the matters above surrounding BHP's and Beretta', let me say to all who have responded to my initial question, especially Shake, W.R., and Mr. Roberts, that I've appreciated hearing all sides of the issues debated. The information has been invaluable.

And, let me add, that extreme views are just as valuable as moderate views - maybe more so in the scheme of American discourse. Extreme views at either end of a spectrum allow people unfamiliar with an issue to see the possibilities, then decide for themselves. The extremes inform and balance each other out - be it capital punishment, abortion, tax refunds, immigration or stem cell research.

Anyway, I just saw two BHP's circa 1971 and 1972 at a local gunshop. $449 a piece. Both in very good condition - bluing looks almost new. Good price? If I understand correctly, the best BHP's are the T series - from '64-'69. So where do the 70's models fit into the scheme of things? The good, the bad, or the ugly?
 
Reliability? Beretta has the edge.

Durability? That is a tougher call IMO.

The new cast frame BHP frames will last longer than the older forged frames.

Mil-spec govt M9s are going 20,000 for blocks, 35,000 for the frames, and over 70,000 for the slides with a MRBS of 1/30,000 last time I saw figures for them (with M882 NATO ammo, same as SAAMI +P). The base here has over 30,000 through all it's training guns, have never broken a slide, rarely break a block, never under 15,000. Contracted service life was only 5,000 rounds BTW.

Know a guy who broke the frame on 2 consecutive MkII BHPs at 14,000 rounds, and I saw plenty of cracked BHP frames/slides when I was stationed in Europe in the late 70s. Know a unit that routinely shot them out at around 50,000 rounds.

Shoot em both, get the one you shoot best, which may not be the one you like best. I do know people who prefer the look/feel of the BHP, but actually shoot the Beretta better. Ya never know...
 
If I understand correctly, the best BHP's are the T series - from '64-'69. So where do the 70's models fit into the scheme of things? The good, the bad, or the ugly?
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It depends on what you mean by the "best". The T-series are some of the best-looking Hi-Powers. The finish is gorgeous and the attention to detail is better than it is on the more modern guns in my opinion. The T-series guns come with a very nice stock trigger in most cases and don't require trigger work usually. Since they don't have an internal firing pin safety, the trigger reset distance is shorter as well. They also tend to have a higher value to collectors who look for Belgian guns.

Having said that, the T-series have some deficiencies as a defensive gun when compared to a new MkIII. The T-series has a tiny safety that is difficult to use, smaller sights that aren't as easy to pick up, the older humped feed ramp that doesn't feed hollowpoints well, a slightly smaller ejection port, and a hammer that is more prone to biting the user. All of these can be fixed with aftermarket parts and gunsmithing but then you are spending more money to decrease the collector's value of the gun.

If I wanted a Hi-Power to enjoy and shoot recreationally on occasion I would definitely go with a T-Series. If I wanted a Hi-Power for any kind of defensive use, I would go with a newer MkII or MkIII model.

The MkII corrects most of the deficiencies of the T-Series by enlarging the ejection port slightly to insure better reliability, adding a larger ambidextrous safety, high-visibility sights, a straight feed ramp that feeds hollow points and a spur hammer that isn't as prone to biting.

The only two cons I can think of with the MkIIs are also pros depending on your point of view. The MkII has no internal firing pin safety - which I like because of the short trigger reset - but it can lead to an accidental discharge if you don't replace the firing pin spring when you replace the recoil spring. Even then, the gun can fire when dropped if it develops enough inertia (unlikely with a firing pin spring in good condition). The other con (or pro) is that the MkII is a forged frame.

The MkIII is an improvement on the MkII and adds an internal firing pin safety that physically blocks the firing pin but also makes for a longer trigger reset. After 1993, the frames are also cast instead of forged. The Israelis used an odd combination of MkII slides and MkIII frames on their Hi-Powers.

Both the MkII and the MkIIIs generally have noticeably worse stock triggers than the older T-series and will probably require some tinkering to get it to where you like it.

I'd second Broken Arrow's comments. If you can, you certainly should try and shoot both guns before making a decision and go with the one that suits you best.

========================================
Edited:

Just noticed that I had prattled on without answering the question.

So where do the 70's models fit into the scheme of things?
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They are a lot more similar to the T-series than the MkII or MkIII and will have most of the same deficiencies and strengths as a T-Series. Browning made the switch from the older style round hammer to a spur hammer sometime between 1970 and 1973 (can't remember exact date) so if there is any major difference between the 1971 and 1972 Hi-Powers and a T-series, it would be the new spur hammer.
 
Hello. Bartholomew Roberts says it right in my view. I would note that the latter MkII HPs did have the internal firing pin safety. Early ones did not.

Best.
 
Higgins, you wrote: As I mentioned, my main priorities for the pistol were reliability, first, then ergonomics and accuracy as second and third. For me, I found the best combination of the three were the BHPs and Berettas. With respect to accuracy, I think it's a wash between the two. Some say Beretta, some say the BHP. Either way, they seem to run pretty close.

IMO, that's where Glock would fit in. Glocks have legendary reliability, great ergonomics, and are extremely accurate. Glocks are extremely durable, and they have no safetys or levels to toggle in a stressful situation. Independant safetys do it all for you. You could look at the Full-size models such as the M17, since you seem to show interest in the 9mm. IM"H"O, Glocks beet both as a home-defense gun. BUT, between a Beretta and a BHP, I'd go with the BHP.

Shotguns are also great for home-defense. Just the chook-chook will scare most criminals right out of your house in no time. You are also less like to less with a shotgun. Hope this helps to your dilemma. Or did I make it a trilemma, or a quadlemma. Sorry ;)
 
Younggenius, I've tried Glock. Way back when had a 10mm. More recently had a Glock 19. I appreciate the Glock's simplicity, innovation, and durability. I personally think the Glock's may be the most durable pistols going. They also have number of other things going for them - ease of breakdown, cleaning, etc... Unfortunately, I just don't like how they feel in my hand and I can't shoot one worth a damn. They also tend to be a bit unwieldy and blocky. Not to knock it, but the Glock just isn't for me.

My decision started as a trilemna - BHP, Beretta, and CZ. Dropped the CZ out of the race due to fewer aftermarket parts, little gunsmithing, etc...
 
Hello. Just got off the phone with Mr. Wickmann and he advises that the cast frame HPs are the ones to use for shooters in that they are "tougher" and hold up to much more than the forged guns.

As his custom gunsmithing business centers around BHPs and he worked for Novak for 10 years, I tend to believe him.

Best.
 
I have a MK III Hi Power and a Beretta 92FS, both in 9mm. My opinion is by no means a definitive study, but here are my perceptions on both guns.

Reliability = Tie. I have never had a failure with either my Hi Power or my 92FS. My wife CAN make the Beretta fail -- I think she is limp-wristing. I tried to duplicate her limp-wristing by shooting weak hand only, holdng the gun sideways, etc. etc. I could never make it fail. She has never had a problem with the Hi Power.

Accuracy = Tie. Both of my guns will put most rounds in a 2"-3" circle at 25 yards if I do my part. You may not win national bullseye championships with those numbers, but for combat accuracy, that is plenty.

Fit to MY hands = Hi Power. It just feels so nice. The Beretta is a big gun for the 9mm cartridge.

Concealed Carry = Hi Power. The slide is much thinner and helps in comfort and concealment.

Action choice = ???. This is very subjective. Some people like the DA/SA guns, some people hate them. Some people like cocked & locked, others fear it. You will have to make these choices for yourself. I believe both have their merits.

Work needed = Both! In my opinion, both a new Hi Power and a new Beretta need some additional work out of the box. Both should be reliable, but I think both need a trigger job. The DA pull on a NIB Beretta is VERY heavy, at around 15lbs. Mine was somewhat "stacky" also. A good gunsmith smoothed it out for me, and now the DA pull is 9lbs and totally smooth. The SA pull is just under 4lbs. The Hi Power can benefit from a trigger job as well. Most of the new ones are pretty stiff.

In conclusion, both are very fine guns and both have their merits. Decide what you need and want to do with the gun, and you'll reach the right conclusion for you, which is all that matters.
 
Having said that, the T-series have some deficiencies as a defensive gun when compared to a new MkIII. The T-series has a tiny safety that is difficult to use, smaller sights that aren't as easy to pick up, the older humped feed ramp that doesn't feed hollowpoints well,
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I am afraid i would really have to disagree with you on this one. Just to check myself I pulled out two Belgian "T" series guns and one MKIII made in l993. There is no mysterious hump in the feed ramp. Many years ago I lightly polished one of my "T" series guns feed ramps and it feeds a wide variety of jacketed hollowpoint bullets and a ton of sticky lead bullet reloads. I would not worry about the High Powers not feeding hollow points. Several of my other "T" series have never had their feed rams polished and I have experienced no problems with the hollow point bullets that I personally have used. I am not saying that if you spend enough money and try hard enough you could not eventually find a bullet that might not feed but I have seen even modern style pistols fail to feed some brands of hollow point bullets.

I have noticed that the barrel of the MKIII has a slightly better throat job but it is not by much. But again I have not experienced the need to rethroat any high power old or new.

As far as the small saftey being difficult to disengage. I find the small safety an advantage not a disadvantage. When carring the gun concealed the small safety is far less likely to become disengaged and I have found no difficuluty whatsoever disengaging it before firing it. I never have liked the larger type safeties on the newer models. Just my personal preference, if you like the larger safety by all means enjoy it. W.R.
 
Quote: WR, this is not only wrong. I have even pointed out to you that the information is wrong before.

Novak's routinely does such work on .40 Hi-Powers and those Hi-Power's only come in the cast frame version.


When the cast frame High Power first came out Wayne Novack did indeed state that he would not work on them. Since that time he has obviously figgured away around the cracked frame problem when working on them. Since he is a talented gunsmith more power to him. Working on cast frames without cracking them is indeed more of a problem than with the forged frame guns. Any profession gunsmith will tell you this. W.R.
 
.

Hello. Just got off the phone with Mr. Wickmann and he advises that the cast frame HPs are the ones to use for shooters in that they are "tougher" and hold up to much more than the forged guns.
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Hey Steve I have always respected your opinion but lets look at this more in depth right now.

The new cast frame high powers were heat treated to be far harder than the forged frame models because they needed to take the pounding of the over pressure .40 S&W cartridge. If the forged framed guns had recieved the same treatment they to would also hold up even better than the cheap cast frame jobs.

Now lets look at the 9mm forged frame guns. They last just as long as the cast frame 40 guns because they were designed to work with pressures of the 9mm cartridge. When comparing the two we must be fair and compare apples to apples. Same heat treatment , same cartridge ,not a different cartridge and different heat treatment.

I stand by what I have published. No cast frame gun can compare to a forged frame gun if both are given equal heat treatment and both are chambered for the same cartridge.

One other thing that was not mentioned. Forgings can recieve a heat treatment that results in an extremely hard outer surface but retains the elasticity of a softer core. This enables the frame to far outlast a cast frame job that by its very nature must be hard all the way through. This is exactly what makes the cast frame jobs so brittle which results in their cracking or breaking if they are subjected to hard impacts like being dropped on a concreate floor.

Some years ago the arrogant Bill Ruger tried to bad mouth S&W in his advertisements for his cast frame guns. Smith & Wesson fought back in their advertisements and pointed out all of the drawbacks to cheap cast frame guns. Old arrogant Bill wisely backed down in a hurry and his attacks on Smith & Wesson ceased abruptly. I learned alot from that advertisment war. I learned alot about the extreme inferiority of the cast frame guns.W.R.
 
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