BHP vs. Beretta re: Reliability

H

Higgins

New member
How reliable in operation, cycling and feeding are BHPs?

To my mind, reliability (both in operation and feeding) is the first requirement of any semi-auto handgun. If it doesn't go boom when you pull the trigger then eject and cycle the next round reliably, nothing else really matters - accuracy, bullet calibre, durability, etc. are all rendered irrelevant.

With this in mind, my questions are as follows. I've narrowed my choice for a primary home-defense gun down to either a Browning Hi-Power or a Beretta 92FS. Which is more reliable? Is there a significant reliability difference?

I really would like to go with the BHP because of how well it fits my hand and points and shoots (the Berettas feel a bit big in my hands). However, the Berettas have developed a reputation as being incredibly reliable (given their open slide design and short, direct distance between the magazine feed lips and the barrel chamber).

I am not as familiar with the BHP's reputation regarding reliability in operation, cycling and feeding. Am I giving up anything in reliability by choosing a BHP over a Beretta?
 
You might try the Beretta compact. Both the Beretta and the high power are good guns. I think more people tinker with the BHP to get what they want from it. (not Bad) The Beretta is very good like all the major brands. Get what feels best to you. Have fun shopping plunker
 
I think the Beretta will be a little more reliable out of the box. With that said, you owe it to yourself to try both brands out and decide for yourself. :)
 
In MY opinion (not gospel truth), you would be hard pressed to find a more reliable auto than the Beretta 92FS.

The Beretta has gone through extensive reliability testing by the military and many federal and local law enforcement agencies. Many people will avoid your question and give you a long list of percieved faults of the Beretta 92 (short frame life, cracked frames and slides, size, awkward for some safety lever, etc.). I find that most of the negatives (cracked frames and slides) are regurgitations of what people hve heard via the web.

The Browning Hi Power is also a very fine handgun (I'm looking for a good one now). Overall I think most would agree that the Beretta would be more reliable. That isn't to say that the Browning can't and won't be reliable. Any individual Hi Power may be more or less reliable than a 92.

In short, If reliability is your chief concern I would choose a Beretta. If ergonomics, accuracy and other factors wiehg in, you might decide the Hi Power would be the one for you.

If it were me I'd buy the one I liked the best first, then buy the other one later as finances permit.

good luck,

Shake
 
In my limited knowledge, the BHP is one of the high points of handgun design. It's been used by many special ops teams, including the FBI HRT (before it switched to the 1911). The problem with the BHP is that you'll feel tempted to tweak it to make it exactly the way you want it. After the tweaking, it'll be both comfortable and extremely reliable. You really can't go wrong with a BHP, but you may want to plan on having a reliability/action job done. The last BHP that I saw at a gun shop had an atrocious trigger -- one of the worst I've ever felt -- 10lbs plus on a single-action.

The 92F is super reliable by virtue of its open slide. I have one. It's incredible accurate and very smooth, especially after an action job. It's definitely a great handgun. Still, I don't carry or shoot it much because it's not comfortable.

You may want to check out the CZ75 or CZ85. The ergonomics are similar to the BHP, with easily accessible 15 rd magazines, and a pretty decent trigger pull. I just bought a CZ75B military, with one hi-cap and one 10rd, at a gun show for about $340 walk-out. The action and trigger pull isn't bad, but I plan for an action job ($115). If all works out, it'll be my primary carry because it's so incredibly comfortable -- beats my 1911s, P7M13, 92F, Glocks ....... just about everything, in the ergonomics.

Just my .02.
 
Can't speak to the Beretta's reliability, but my BHP has had only one failure to feed in well over 1000 rounds. ...And that was an improperly crimped hand load.

Other than that, it has fired everything I fed it with perfect reliability.
 
What I don't like about the 92FS I own:

1)The Trigger Pull on the First round
2)Its 9mm

What I like about the 92FS:

Everything Else

Having 16rd of 9mm in an extremely reliable gun is a good thing;)
 
It may boil down to what you`re comfortable with.

Single action versus double. Are you familiar enough with a manual safety under stress? Maybe double action is better in this situation.

Both the Browning and the Beretta can be had in .40 S&W. The trade off is less rounds. 17 round South African mags are available for the Browning 9 but 13 round mags if you can find them aren`t bad. If you buy either gun new you`re probably only going to get 10 rounders anyway.

I only know one person who has a CZ and he let me fire it. Another excellent choice in my opinion especially if money is tight.
 
I own both and I would take the High Power hands down.

It is not myth that Berettas blow up and severly injure the shooter. Berretta has been sued and has lost in court several times. I still have about a 10 page summary of a court case where a young man lost his eye from a Beretta slide cracking and blowing up. Beretta themselves have redisigned the pistol and are now making a heavier slide model. Strangely enough though you can still buy Berettas with the weaker old style slide.

You must remember that the Beretta is a double action first shot pistol. Under stress you can forget about hitting anything with it unless you are shooting across the bar room table. This is not hype or myth. I have seen too many people fail to hit targets even at extremely close range with a double action pistol.

The Browning has tremedously good balance and points quite naturally. The Breretta feels about as well balanced as a electric hand drill.

The Browning is known for its superb accuracy. The Beretta is about a 3 inch shooter and its accuracy is not consistant. I have owned several Berettas , one a high grade Italian model and also and American made junker. Both gave inconsistant accuracy.

Most Browning High Powers have excellent trigger pulls once the magazine safety is removed. You can do it yourself in about 10 minutes. Some of the early Berettas has terrible trigger pulls but the later models are much improved. My very crudley made American model does have a good trigger pull.

Beretta has a cheap aluminum frame. The High Power has a steel frame and the High Powers made before 1993 all had finely fitted forged steel frames.

Frame strip down: The Browning is much easier and much less prone to damage when stripping the frame. No cheap aluminum frame that is easily damaged and no cheap sheet metal roll pins holding it together.

The Beretta standard model is a huge pistol. The Browning is much slimer , much more concealable due to its slimmer slide and shorter butt.

Aesthetically the High Power wins hand down. No argument from any sane person on that issue.

The Beretta is a very reliable weapon to this I will agree but I have had no problems with over a dozen high powers that I have owned.

Resale value on a High Power is much greater than the Beretta. AS a matter of fact the price recently seems to be skyrocketing on High Powers because they have become unavailble from Browning for over a year. Rumor has it that they have ceased producition forever. So you may be stuck with buying the Beretta anyway.

Hope this helps you make up your mind. I hope you do not have to learn the hard way W.R.
 
Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

Wild Romanian, I am curious about your comment that, "The High Power has a steel frame and the High Powers made before 1993 all had finely fitted forged steel frames." How were/are the BHP's made after 1993? Does the change in manufacturing style compromise the accuracy of the BHP's made after 1993?

My first concern is reliability, but accuracy is probably 2nd or 3rd. Are BHP's made after 1993 inferior to those made before 1993?

I am looking at either a BHP Practical (chrome frame/blue slide) or a Beretta Elite II. Is the Practical the best BHP out there or is there a BHP from a different time which is considered to be the best? Anyone?
 
Higgins, if you like the feel of the BHP better I recommend you go with that gun.

The BHP and Beretta 92 are both reliable guns. I don't think either one would be a bad choice in terms of reliability.

I have a stock HP with 6,000 rounds through it and about 10 feed-related failures during that time (I also had a bad magazine that was causing feed related failures but didn't notice the problem until much later so its impossible to know which ones are magazine induced and which might be gun problems).

I also have a custom HP that has Kurt Wickmann's (http://www.kwgw.com/) reliability package on it (can't remember the price; but its pretty affordable). That gun has almost 5,000 rounds through it and no gun-related failures (including 1,500 rounds without cleaning and just two drops of CLP on the slide rails at the 500rd point). Its also my carry gun.

I prefer the Hi-Power because it has the edge in concealability and accuracy over the Beretta. the 92F is just too big in my opinion and I find that at least for me, the Hi-Power is noticeably more accurate as well.

The downside on the Browning is that most people don't care for the stock trigger much and almost everyone does some kind of work to improve it. Occasionally you'll get a good trigger out of the box on a newer model; but if it is a MkIII you'll probably end up playing with it. The magazine disconnect is also a pain since it keeps magazines from dropping free as well as adding to the rough feel of many stock triggers.

As for Hi-Powers made after 1993, they use a cast steel frame instead of a forged frame. The cast steel frame was introduced to support the Hi-Power in .40S&W. This caliber was originally cracking the older forged frames during testing so FN developed a cast steel frame for all versions and a beefier slide for the .40 S&W.

WR has an unusual grudge against cast frame Hi-Powers that I neither understand nor agree with but I think even he will agree that it doesn't affect accuracy and in my opinion it is likely to be more reliable than the forged frames - not less.

If you visit http://www.fnhipower.com/ and search the archives you'll find quite a thread on the cast vs. forged discussion where WR articulates his views.

My carry gun (mentioned earlier) is a cast-frame Hi-Power so I am literally betting my life on it.
 
Higgins,

Here come all the negatives on the Beretta. What did I tell you?

:D
It is not myth that Berettas blow up and severly injure the shooter.
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WR, lets be honest, with enough digging we can find examples of every model of firearms on the market that have "blown up and severely injured the shooter". This is not a phenomena singularly associated with the Beretta. I'm certain that with some research, you could find examples of Hi Powers blowing up and injuring the shooter as well. But then you wouldn't want to do that would you because you like the Hi Power. I would challenge anyone to document (that means find definitive proof) as many cases of Beretta slide separation as possible with any type of ammo (including the subgun ammo used in the military failures). I'd be willing to bet you'd have a hard time documenting even double figures (Broken Arrow can probably help us on that, he's done as much research as anyone on this BB).
Under stress you can forget about hitting anything with it unless you are shooting across the bar room table.
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This would be true for a shooter who has not learned trigger control. Anyone who practices with a DA/SA can shoot it just fine. Ernest Langdon happens to do OK with his Beretta wouldn't you say?
The Beretta feels about as well balanced as a electric hand drill.
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Wild Romanian left out part of that sentence. What he wanted to add was "TO ME". There are a lot of people on this BB who seem to be very good about deciding how everything should feel for everyone else. As for myself, and many others, the Beretta feels about as good as a handgun can feel.

As for Beretta accuracy, anyone would be able to find individual examples of any handgun that will outshoot another. Hell some people run across Hi Points that outshoot a Les Baer. It simply comes down to the individual firearm. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Beretta's overall are more accurate than the Hi Power (they probably aren't), but to say all Beretta's are 3 inchers is untrue.
The High Power has a steel frame and the High Powers made before 1993 all had finely fitted forged steel frames.
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Tell me their isn't a hidden meaning in that statement. What are the Hi Power frames AFTER 1993 made with? Cheap cast frames?The Beretta's "cheap aluminum frame" will outlive probably 98% of their owners. The other 2% may shoot enough to possibly wear one out -- then, when and if they do, Beretta will replace it.
Frame strip down: The Browning is much easier and much less prone to damage when stripping the frame. No cheap aluminum frame that is easily damaged and no cheap sheet metal roll pins holding it together.
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WR knows as well as everyone here that 99% of handgun owners will never strip the frame of their auto. Even if they do, if you are careful and don't take a ball peen hammer to it, you aren't going to damage it.
The Beretta standard model is a huge pistol. The Browning is much slimer , much more concealable due to its slimmer slide and shorter butt.
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Yeah, here is the size issue just like I said it would come. Did you read the initial question Wild Romanian? He said he is going to use it as a HOUSE GUN. That means he can wheel in a Howitzer. If the gun fits his hand, size is irrelevant in a house gun.
Resale value on a High Power is much greater than the Beretta.
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That statement takes the cake, write a huge paragraph about how the Hi Power is much better than the Beretta, then tell the guy its resale value is better? I'm sure Higgins is going to do a bunch of research on which gun is better with the intent of buying it only to sell it in a couple of months.
So you may be stuck with buying the Beretta anyway. Hope this helps you make up your mind. I hope you do not have to learn the hard way W.R.
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So tell us, Oh Wise and Omniscient WR. What is "learning the hard way"? There are probably more Beretta's in more people closets who are tickled to death with them than there are people who even know what a Hi Power is.

Higgins,
I own a Beretta Elite II and it is one of my favorites. It will shoot much more accurately than I can hold it ( I know, I tested it off a rest), has a great trigger, has a radiused backstrap so the grip is more forgiving for those with small hands, standard capacity (high cap.) mags are readily available and inexpensive, and it looks as good as any handgun I own. Best of all, it is 100% reliable. If you intend to use it as a house gun though you may want to change the sights. It comes with Novak black on black sights and you'd probably want to switch them for night sights or at least white dots.

I'd encourage you again to simply buy what you like. As I said before, the Beretta detractors will come out of the woodwork to list the terrible things about it. I don't have a thing against the Hi Power and intend to get one soon. It is a great gun.

As someone else mentioned, if you like the Browning, you may want to look at the CZ75B. It would be much less expensive than either the Hi Power or the Beretta and has much of the same qualities of both. It is accurate, very reliable, standard capacity mags available, and most find them to be as pointable and ergonomic as the Hi Power.

Buy what you like and enjoy.

Shake
 
Hello. I'd choose the HP, but this is subjective in that I like the way the feel, handle, and shoot. I prefer single-action automatics, but that's MY decision and may not be yours.

In terms of reliability, current HPs ARE more reliable out of the box with a wider selection of ammo than were the older guns. In several MkIII pistols, both with the forged frame or the cast, I've noted NO JHPs that the HP will not feed.

Esthetically, I prefer the forged frame, but several thousands of rounds later, I believe that the cast frame shows less wear and is likely stronger.

Accuracy, out of the box, has been uniformly very good with the HP and the piece does lend itself to
customizing should you so desire.

Best.
 
Whichever gun you like better, one thing I must say is that the BHP is reliable out of the box! Reliability is one thing the BHP is! I've never had a single problem with mine. The trigger I paid a smith to improve, but reliability? NO PROBLEM!

I like the Beretta and would like to have one, but I'd never trade my BHP for one!
 
Whoa! Feels like I stumbled onto a running battlefield regarding Berettas. I'm just passing through, so don't shoot.

Everyone who has commented has made good points, important points for me to think about - on both pistols.

As I mentioned, my main priorities for the pistol were reliability, first, then ergonomics and accuracy as second and third. For me, I found the best combination of the three were the BHPs and Berettas. With respect to accuracy, I think it's a wash between the two. Some say Beretta, some say the BHP. Either way, they seem to run pretty close.

As for ergonomics, the BHP clearly felt better and fit my hand better. Which caused me to lean in favor of the BHP.

That left just reliability. I knew that Berettas were highly regarded in the reliability category. I didn't have any idea about BHP's. Hence, my question. It appears from all of your replies that while the Beretta may be more reliable out of the box, the BHP is not far behind and can be made better for not a bad price. (Anyone have any idea off the top of their head what the Wiskman reliability package mentioned by mr B. Roberts costs?). Hence, I think the BHP may be the direction that I go.

The fact that the newer cast frames may be more durable and stronger - and just as accurate as - the older forged frames just makes me feel more confident in the BHP. Thanks for that bit of info.

Also, B. Roberts mentioned that the magazine catch keeps the mags from dropping freely. I had heard this before and it caused me some embarassment at the gunshop when I looked at a new BHP. Knowing how the mag safety keeps the mags from dropping, I pushed the mag release on the new BHP, expecting to have to pull the mag free. Imagine my embarassment and surprise when the mag ejected freely and skittered past my waiting off-hand onto and down the lenght of the glass guncase. Undeterred, I retrieved the magazine, reinserted it and pushed the mag release again, this time ready to catch the dropping magazine. Same thing, the mag practically shot out of the pistol grip. So, my questions is, has FN changed the design of the mag safety or mags themselves to permit mags to drop freely? Or did I just get an unusual speciment of a new BHP? (It was a Practical model).
 
Hello. The magazines you tested were likely the post-ban 10-rnd jobs that have the mousetrap spring arrangement at the bottom rear to aid ejection.

You might check Wickmann's site and I think you'll find what you seek. He's also very nice to speak with.

Best.

http://www.kwgw.com/index.html
 
S. Camp, you are right. The magas on the BHP I looked at did have a little spring at the back, near the rear of the magazine.

By the way, one last inquiry. Any opinions on quality, reliability of the various hi-cap mags available for BHPs? Argentinian, South African 17 rounders, etc...?
 
Higgins,

I think you made a good choice. How a gun feels is important and for most people, the Hi Powers just feel "right". Odds are your Hi Power will be as reliable as you need it to be (very). I have a good firend who owns five Hi Powers last I counted. All of them are very reliable with ammo they like. Some of his older models don't like hollow point ammo, but are 100% with FMJ. Regardless of how reliable they are, they are a joy to shoot.

Enjoy it.

By the way, don't want to start another war, but you are getting it in 9mm, right? :D

Shake
 
Yep, Shake, 9mm. The original cartridge it was designed for.

:( Please no flames about how bad the 9mm cartridge is or how great the .40 S&W is. Both have their good and bad points - let's just agree on that.
 
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