BG's yell "POLICE!" as they kick down your door...

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Dangus,
I am not sure why your last post was directed towards me. I am not debating whether we should have no knocks (I didn't even mention them), that has been done to death.

The point of my post was twofold. My first point and the one I believe strongly in is putting stuff on TFL advocating or using violence. For example, saying that you will use bullets that go through vests/helmets. If you believe that fine. I don't have a problem with it, this is still a free country. But please do not post it. This is a public site, this stuff can be used against us to bolster the opinion that gun owners are trigger happy nuts. We are losing the propaganda war as it is.

My second point was not everybody is going to be civil when the police come to there house to discuss something or arrest them.
 
My $.02:

If ANYONE feels the need to kick down my door no matter what they yell, they will be immediately greeted by the other side of my barrel. All for the simple reason that I have done nothing outside or behind closed doors that would invite such attention from the police. If they have a warrant, they may serve it first by knocking on my door -- not by knocking it down.

That being said, you all now know the easiest way to take advantage of me is to knock on my door. :)

Not to mention... It would seriously not be a good idea considering I have one of the must trigger-happy individuals as a roommate.

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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!
 
If you're really worried about this, it seems the *first* line of defense should be a really, really strong door. (Or maybe an outdoor motion sensor should be first?) I remember, a couple of decades ago, police took a news crew along on a warrant search. They yelled "POLICE" and almost immediately started pounding on the door with sledgehammers. And pounding. And pounding. After a bit, a small window on the door opened - just like an old speakeasy - and the resident said, "What you want?" Police demanded he open up - and he refused UNTIL THEY SHOWED HIM THE WARRANT, AND LET HIM READ IT THROUGH THE WINDOW, whereupon he DID comply. There was no contraband found in the house, but the door looked to be made of 2x6's on the inside, with reinforced metal straps.

When asked - on camera - why the strong door, the resident said "It's a bad neighborhood." :)

[This message has been edited by HankB (edited August 04, 2000).]
 
mrat,

Why do you think we should get off this subject? I for one am glad that someone posted it again because this is the first time I've heard anything about the criminals acting like cops with no knock warrants. This is serious and requires attention. And what makes someone a nut for being willing to talk about the use of leathal force to defend their family? I consider it to be honorable. If you are afraid to speak of such things because of what somone might think than you've already been beaten. They've been successful. You've been shut down.

As far as what to do, I don't know. I'm reading Unintended Consequences right now and haven't gotten that far. But I do know I'm not as good as good old Henry Bowman. I think either way you lose. No matter who is coming through the door your going to be outnumbered and outgunned. If you go to full auto with A.P. ammo the next tactic will be to come through all possible entrances at once. ie. windows, other doors, roof, wall, etc.

I think the police officers really should be more concerned as we probably will take out at least a few of them before they kill us. If I were an officer being told to execute a no knock I guess it would be my responsibility to double check everything first. Correct location, person, etc. They have a vested interest.

Other than that, maybe you could have some kind of cage or trap that locks them into the entrance way while things are sorted out. This is a tough issue. Maybe you could have a surveillence camera and view to see if they are acting like "professional officers" while standing outside your door.

The worse thing we can do with this issue is not talk about it. It will only get worse. Perhaps we all need to contact our local police departments and talk to them. They are not our enemies until they are wrongly charging through the front door muzzle first. Until then, maybe we need to come up with a distinctive way for the cops to prove who they are. I don't know. But I'd be willing to bet that the local police department wants a solution too. I would if I were them.
 
Looks like a case for "defensible architecture", like hard cover (bulletproof) outside walls, windows too small to enter, sturdy entrance door placed to isolate and surround the person outside, etc.

Back to medieval or ancient roman architecture with gardens inside the house...

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If the priority of the archive over witnes accounts is given up, history ceases to be a science and becomes an art.

http://www.ety.com/tell/why.html
 
mrat,

It was directed at you mostly because you were talking about this post as a whole as though it were being extremist. Perhaps that's not exactly what you meant, so maybe I shouldn't have specified you, whatever...

Anyway, I am not advocating violence for anything outside of self-defense. I feel mentioning the part about having ammo that can bust vests fits the nature of the thread. Some BGs coming in like cops, may also have armor, and I am ready for that. The local LEOs know that and therefore they tread lightly regarding the idea of ever raiding my house without either extremely careful consideration and planning, or a ton of courtesy. This relates to the thread in that if you are armed to the teeth and make it known to the LEOs and explain why you are armed that way, and also explain that you will defend your home in the extreme against any unidentified assailants, then you will know if it is LEOs or BGs because the LEOs will knock 9 times out of 10, probably a lot more than that. I shoot with my neighbor, who is a local cop and I have sat down with him and several members of my neighborhood watch and clarified some proceedures they need to take assaulting any of our homes for any reason whatsoever. Our local watch will fire on anyone who attacks a home without following these proceedures. First off, when they assault a home, they must turn on their lights within 30 seconds of entry, and they must turn on the siren for a moment. They also have agreed by way of verbal contract that if anyone is arrested they will contact the watch and tell them why, or if that endangers an investigation, they must tell them that. There are a few other miscellaneous rules applying to each home and how to regard the security features, but all of these methods are there to protect us, and protect the police. I mean, we sat down with a LEO and negotiated this, and these are guidelines they plan to, and had better follow shoudl something arise.
I am absolutely not advocating shooting cops, but I am also saying that it's hardly criminal to fire on unknowns who are a direct threat to your welfare, even if they are police. It is that unknowns aspect that needs worked on. The police need to talk to neighborhood watches, and need to figure out the best ways to deal with each neighborhood. Myself and a few friends have advocated district policing for quite some time now but have yet to see any results. What that would include would be having officers who work specific areas of the city and only those areas. This would make the officers familiar with the homes there, the homeowners, and the attitudes there. I will continue to push for that till it happens.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Probably not much you can do without getting you and your family killed in the process. Make all of your exterior doors very difficult to break down :). Hopefully your dogs will give you a second or 2 alert. You do have dogs, right?
 
Hey Folks!

mrat is right:

All the talk about how one would respond violently to home envasion is wasting air, err...uh, bits.
Chest beating and fist shaking is best left to less evolved species.

It is also a tactictly unsound course of action to advertise one's own plans, security arrangements, and armament.
A well armed and alarmed wealthy Arizonan was robbed by a professional crew, a few years back, when they defeated his secure and protected home by kidnapping his wife off of site and using her as leaverage against his bank account. For every defense there is counter. Intelligence (information) is a powerful tool. Don't give it away.

Communication is both constructive and productive when the information conveyed is of use to the person/persons being addressed.

So who is it that you want use the inforamtion you post about your personal security, arms, and tactics?
No one, if you want to prevail.

Now, that said: Hypotheticly speaking...

William




[This message has been edited by William R. Wilburn (edited August 04, 2000).]
 
When someone breaks down your door, the only action is to defend yourself. If it's a police mistake, that's a shame, but there is no way to know they mean no harm. The police know that entering in this manner is asking to be attacked.

To aid your protection, you should have a damn strong door. I'm thinking of steel and hardwood 2x6's. Make sure the frame is attached to the structure of the house. You should also have remote sensing systems: motion and/or vibration detectors and/or a dog. A safe room is a nice, albeit not always practical idea. I'd like to have a steel door on the exterior and on the basement.

The next step is booby-traps. This is tricky because your house becomes like a spider web. It traps your prey, but if you're not careful, it will trap you too... and do you really want to live in a funhouse?

The strong door and remote sensing systems are of reasonable cost, and don't interfere with your life, and are practical home security measures. In other words: you're crazy not to.
 
"If someone yells "POLICE!" and kicks down my door, do I have any choice but to assume that they are BG's first, and defend my home by instinct?

How is a good guy like me supposed to know the difference between a BG yelling "POLICE!" and a good police officer yelling "POLICE!"


Is there any choice these days in this situation but to shoot first and ask questions later?"

Good questions, all, and there's no easy answer. Probably the BEST compromise considering all factors, would be to outlaw the current-style legitimate police "dynamic entries", and instead require all all police to ID themselves from OUTSIDE the home, allowing one at least the OPPORTUNITY to look out so see police cruisers, uniforms, and identification cards BEFORE the forcible entry occurs. If you don't look out, that's your own problem, but they must give you at least 10 seconds or so to see the indicia of a real police agency. The down side side is that some drugs will get flushed, but an incredbly small price to pay, IMO, for the saving of innocent lives during both "mistaken address" real police entries, and BG yelling "police" scenarios.
 
Futo,
If you were serving a warrant on a true BG, would you want to stand there and let him inspect your uniform prior to entering?

To the people that are saying "hey I am good guy just knock on the door". How are the police supposed to know that? My crystal ball is broken.

I am not advocating no knocks or throwing no knocks away. They have a place in LE but should be restricted to certain situations. I think they should be used in sitituations where it is safer for the LEOs and the person that is the "target". I don't care enough about drug warrants to use them there.
If they flush the drugs, oh well. My lfe is much more important than dope.

PS In the thirteen years as an LEO in two different jurisdictions I have not seen, participated in, or EVEN heard of a no knock being done. And I am fulltime member of a warrant service team.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mrat:


I am not advocating no knocks or throwing no knocks away. They have a place in LE

I disagree. If you really need to get someone, catch them offsite, with drawn weapons and badges.

I don't care enough about drug warrants to use them there.
If they flush the drugs, oh well. My lfe is much more important than dope.[/quote]

Well, here we agree. Let's prosecute the real criminals, not the modern bathtub brewers.

In a nutshell, I will always act without hesitation to protect my life and freedom. Simple formula: door splinters in, bullets fly out.
 
sumabitch says "it's the law" referring to his right to shoot someone breaking down his door: I don't disagree that it's his right, but obviously it's not the law, look what happened to that poor sumabitch that had a gun in his home! It looks like we are loosing more rights than just the ones stated in the second ammendment.
 
In keeping with the thread about Home Invasion break-in's by J-B-T's and other
low-life criminals here, I am posting this story about Mr. Donald Scott, another victim of the Jack Booted Thugs mentality, out to steal his property at the cost of his life, for those who may not have read about it before.

More info available on this subject at:
http://www.illusions.com/opf/Scott.htm

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Trails End: A Memorial to Donald Scott


On October 2, 1992 Malibu California millionaire Donald Scott was shot to death inside his own home, during a raid by Los Angeles Sheriff's Department and agents from five federal law enforcement agencies.

The Scotts were awakened by the sound of the police breaking down their door. Scott's wife, Frances, ran downstairs to find her house swarming with men with guns aimed at her.

She screamed "don't shoot me, don't kill me." Donald Scott, recovering from recent cataract surgery, got his gun and ran to the defense of his wife. When he emerged at the top of the stairs, holding his gun over his head, the officers told him to lower the gun.

As he did, they shot him to death. The warrant was for evidence of the cultivation of marijuana, but no illegal activity was discovered at the Scott ranch. The report of the Ventura County District Attorney, Michael Bradbury, concluded that the police lied to obtain the search warrant, that there had never been any marijuana cultivation on the property, and that the raid was motivated by a desire to forfeit the multi-million dollar ranch.

Despite the DA's dramatic conclusions, no officer was ever indicted, or even lightly disciplined for the lies or the killing.

This is an outrageous abuse of police power. These officers must be brought to justice. Please write your Congressmen now and demand a Congressional investigation.

Include a copy of the Ventura County D.A.'s report.
 
A junkie told me that when his house was raided, he thought it was a rival gang and he hid behind a door with a can of pepper spray.

The cops found cocaine and heroin, but the guy said he didn't even spend 24 hours in jail. All in all he said It was only 10% of the hassle of getting a DWI.

No knock police entries will go down in the history books as a black eye for America.
 
Great....I had the perfect house designed and now I have to start over with different doors.

Back to the drawing board! Ohh..these glass block windows look just peachy!
 
I hasn't really gone off topic too much. This problem is a direct result of years of abuses by SOME cops, though certainly there are whole departments that have never done a no-knock.

It is a problem of burglars seeing a very easy to abuse practice by the police and exploiting it to it's fullest. I have seen a lot of BGs, and most of them are very impatient, while many LEOs are the opposite. A display of patience sometimes is the best proof someone really is a LEO when they come to your door. Like I said though, there are absolutely clear-cut cases where LEOs have every right to do a no-knock, but I think that it should require a 6 man jury-issued warrant to do so. A lot of judges get a little too compliant with the police simply to avoid the hassle of arguing about it. Certainly not all do though, it is a huge problem in some areas.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Originally posted by Erick:
Dangus-
This has gone Off-Topic. The thread is a about Goblins, not the "JBT"

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You're right. Let me throw this in for everyone to chew on.

A couple of months ago I was involved in a Force on Force simulation. The scenario was that I was leaving the courthouse after it had closed. My car was parked in the parking deck and I was told to go to my car and put the key in the door, that would signal the end of the simulation. I moved down a long DARK hallway that opened into the very DARK parking garage, found my car and put the key in the door thinking "it's over, whew!". Wrong.

I was quite focused on the door when a "command voice" shouted from behind me to "drop the flashlight and give me your car keys". The voice was undoubtedly the voice of a police officer (heck, the courthouse was just next door, right?). I froze. Why would a policeman want my flashlight and car keys? As I stood there like an idiot trying to answer that question, he shot me in the weak shoulder. Ah-ha! That would be what's called an "assault cue". The judges didn't stop it, so I dropped out of sight, and snuck around a car and shot him in the leg. After the lights came up, the judges looked at my shoulder "wound" and declared me dead by bleeding out.

The point is that if a badguy acts like a policeman through dialogue, body langauge, or outright screaming "police!", it will throw off your decision making process. The badguy in the above situation never said "police" or even hinted to it, but there was no mistaking that the voice he was using was a police command voice. Exactly like the one eveyone hears on Cops. Yes, this situation is different from a home invasion, but the tactic used by the enemy is the same...to shake up the victim by making them trust the badguy. By then the armed citizen is behind the curve. What are the answers? I don't really think there are any cut and dried answers if you're on the street. Is it a common occurence tactic used by badguys in a common street mugging? Should we, as armed citizens, be thinking and planning for such a situation? I those that answers would best come from one of our Law Enforcement Firing Liners.

Personally, I think it could (and more than likely, does) happen. I had a discussion with a friend of mine along these lines yesterday, and we figured that a simle and some simple courtesy can go along way towards keeping anyone from being killed by gunfire.

Please forgive any spelling mistakes.

EAF
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