Beyond SAAMI Specs?

MR. G:
I will start by saying as clearly as I can..... I don't --READ THAT DO NOT--care whether or not ANYONE else agrees with me on anything I do, especially when it comes to reloading. And, I will TRY to address your comments paragraphically.

(1): As I said above...I don't care if you agree with me or not...I never asked you to agree with me on ANYTHING. I never questioned your [want] for a tight bullet hold, and never said, nor implied that I used a light/loose bullet hold in loads. If you would have taken the time to read my posts, you should have seen that the mouth-crimping was ONLY to check for MAX OAL in that PARTICULAR chamber.

(2): As you use YOUR test case to transfer the COAL, so do I using when using MY method. AFTER I get my MAX OAL, I seat the bullet .125"(1/8") DEEPER into the case. (MY preference for STARTING OAL for my loads) I don't care what OAL anyone else chooses...ONLY my choice for MY loads. The only times that there is any adjustment with seating bullets, is when I am ESTABLISHING max OAL for the particular bullet in use. AFTER THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED.... A dummy cartridge is made up and a seater die is LOCKED DOWN FOR THAT LOAD!!!

(3): As for not seating bullets into the lands....NEITHER AM I in favor....NOR.....did I ever say that I was, OR that I EVER DID...for LOADED ROUNDS. ONLY for establishing the INITIAL MAX OAL for whichever rifle/bullet I was loading... at which point, I reduced COAL by .125" and set my INITIAL Test seating die for that [PRIMARY] COAL, when setting up for TEST COALs. When an accurate and SAFE MAX OAL load is found...THAT is my established MAX COAL for that combo, and a seating die is set for that load.

(4): When I insert the case and bullet into the chamber from the rear and push forward until the case abuts on the chamber shoulder... I [THEN] have established the RIFLING-TO-BOLT FACE length, [BECAUSE] I have already established the max chamber dimensions for the particular rifle/case combo when I first:
(A); expanded the case neck, (on VIRGIN, and ONLY on VIRGIN brass), and then sized the neck in increments, until I had NO, REPEAT *NO* clearance between the BOLT FACE and the BASE of the CASE....ZERO repeat *ZERO* HEADSPACE. My cases had a slight [bulge] at the neck/shoulder junction while the neck was being reduced/sized to MAX CHAMBER LENGTH.
(B) UPON FIRING..the case fireformed to the chamber with ZERO HEADSPACE.....[MY way of establishing rifling-to-bolt face max length] I don't expect you to understand that, and with ALL DUE RESPECT...NOR do I care, IT"S MY WAY....

(5): When I seat my bullets for actual loads, I use a seating die with the OAL (for that particular bullet/case) ALREADY locked down. I do not keep re-adjusting the seater stem, as it is already set. NEED I SAY MORE?

MR.G.: What you seem to fail to understand, for some UNGODLY reason, is [that] YOUR WAY of doing things, steps taken, etc. (reference reloading and establishing COAL) as do other people who reload, is essentially the same as I do things....WITH the exception that....You use store-bought equipment to measure your stuff and I essentially made mine from scratch with stuff I had laying around and put to use. We both have accomplished the SAME END PRODUCT.. The difference being.... the utensils and methods used in doing so.
On my end...the money saved allows me to acquire more dedicated dies for each different bullet I load without having to repeatedly adjust seating dies once my MAX COAL has been established for THAT particular bullet/case combo. AND I ASSURE YOU ..... Your neck/bullet tension is definitely not any tighter than mine. Especially when I remove the expander ball and seat a boattail bullet and let the undersized [read that un-expanded neck] grasp the bullet. And I will offer to you this bit of information: If you go too tightly with neck tension on the bullet...You WILL deform the bullet by reducing the diameter of the bullet shank...ESPECIALLY with lightly constructed [conventional] bullets such as those designed for the .30-30 Win.
BEEN THERE/DONE THAT.

NOW... On that note, I shall cease any further comment with you on this matter as it appears.....And again, I mean no disrespect whatsoever, that you cannot see past, nor grasp, anyone else's method of doing something, other than your own way. You have a good day, Sir.

WILL
 
Just some more to toss in the stew: PO Ackly took a .30 caliber barrel and cut an 8x57 chamber in it to test pressure increase. As long as the free bore and neck area were cut to the 8x57 dimensions, there was no noticeable increase in pressure between that barrel and a standard 8x57 barrel.
Over the years I have come to the conclusion that like automobiles, guns are very individualistic and it is hard to have "Set" rules to govern each one. What I am trying to say is that what works for one rifle may be detrimental to the accuracy of another.
 
MR.G.: What you seem to fail to understand, for some UNGODLY reason, is [that] YOUR WAY of doing things, steps taken, etc. (reference reloading and establishing COAL) as do other people who reload, is essentially the same as I do things....WITH the exception that....You use store-bought equipment to measure your stuff and I essentially made mine from scratch with stuff I had laying around and put to use. We both have accomplished the SAME END PRODUCT.. The difference being.... the utensils and methods used in doing so.
Click to expand...

Store bought? Factory made? ME?

I went to a gun show, I walked up to a table and said "DATUMS!"

The dealer said he did not have 'datums', the shopper next to me said "WHERE?" and the man on the other side of me ask "What does a datum look like?".

F. Guffey
 
POST 40...Paragraph 3.....Words 4&5. Factory equipment ring a bell?

I guess RON WHITE was correct after all.
 
Relative to bullet hold, the formula given by Forster is, the neck wall thickness times two, plus the caliber, minus two. However, I was not real happy with that formula, as I suspect it was not designed for hunting loads. After annealing, the necks are considerably softer and I too want a little more hold than their method provides. I had to order undersize bushings to choke the necks down to get better hold, but I have no clue as to how many actual pounds of hold is on the bullet, nor do I know how to measure it. My assumption is, as long as everything is consistant or the same from round to round, it will generate the same pressure spike, the same speed, the same point of impact...etc. relatively speaking. Perhaps that's an overly idealistic approach, but it's a good starting point.

Maybe, i ain't got no gud lernin behind me, but again, I'm not a bench rest guy! I think we're all trying to achieve the same results, but we all use our own methods. When mine fail and I'm hard aground, I use the Firing Line to learn new techniques or to stand corrected on my methods or procedures. Humility is not one of my stronger attributes, but I don't have to worry about guys like Uncle Nick thinking that I'm stupid when I'm seeking answers. (He's polite enough not to mention it.) He's always there to help, along with all the other guys on the forum who are way more experienced than me.

The one thing that I've learned about reloading is, the only thing carved in granite is that nothing is carved in granite!
 
Relative to bullet hold, the formula given by Forster is, the neck wall thickness times two, plus the caliber, minus two. However, I was not real happy with that formula, as I suspect it was not designed for hunting loads.
Click to expand...

Given by Forster, there is crush fit, interference fit, the difficult one to measure is tension. There is no conversion from tension to pounds, I have tension gages, all the gages read in pounds. Bullet hold can be measured with a bath room scale.

some reloaders have moved on to a seating press with a pressure gage. It appears some will require therapy before they learn to prepare a case. My opinion, seems that would be a good place to start. Some are getting readings as high as 130 pounds.

F. Guffey
 
Then there is the other way. Drill out the flash hole/primer pocket of a fired case then neck size the case. After neck sizing seat a bullet, after seating a bullet remove the bolt and then chamber the case. After chambering the case push the bullet out of the case until it contacts the rifling. Once the bullet contacts the rifling, STOP! pushing.

Remove the case with the bullet then use it as a transfer. TRANSFER Transfer the dimensions of the chamber to the seating die. Meaning adjust the seating die to the transfer making sure the die is not adjusted to crimp.

Then save the transfer to zero the seating die, as in zero off the lands. There is nothing entertaining about seating bullets off the lands for me. I want my bullet to have 'the jump', I want my bullets to have the 'running start' and I want all the bullet hold I can get. Bullet hold? In the scheme of things, bullet hold is a low priority, wouldn't I be something if I somehow managed 60 pounds of bullet hold.

And then there is tension, I do not have neck tension, I have bullet hold, I can measure bullet hold, tension? I do not have a gage that measures tensions, pounds only.

F. Guffey
Click to expand...


I like this idea. I will probably go this route but since I have multiple guns of the same caliber I will have to find a single common length that will work in all of them since I don't have dedicated dies for each gun.
 
The cases were not fired in my chambers and the case necks do not have enough bullet hold, I am the fan of bullet hold because I use the test/transfer case to adjust my seating die.
Click to expand...

POST 40...Paragraph 3.....Words 4&5. Factory equipment ring a bell?

I guess RON WHITE was correct after all.
Click to expand...

I use the drilled out flash hole/primer pocket case. I use a cleaning rod to push the bullet out of the case. Then there are rifles that will not accommodate the cleaning rod like the M1 Garand, Model 94 Winchester etc.. It is possible to modify a case with a bent tube and stiff cable.

I have the Hornady/Sinclair tool complete with primer pockets drilled and tapped
Click to expand...

It is bent to accommodate the chambers with difficult access.

F. Guffey
 
PICTURE: EXASPERATION.
Mr. G; Had you read [CLOSELY] my previous post: (Paraphrased). Into a case [previously fired in the chamber being checked].. with the mouth crimped with finger pressure.. and tight enough to hold...without falling out on its own... a bullet far enough outside the case to engage the rifling. NOTE: (This CAN be done with virgin brass, BUT... With the virgin case having NOT been fired in that particular chamber...It will NOT be fireformed to that chamber and therefore--BOLT FACE-TO-SHOULDER DATUM LENGTH....MAY NOT BE...the same length as with the fired case).

THEN; Insert the case into the chamber and GENTLY...Close and latch the bolt.
Open the bolt, and with either free hand holding the case... slowly extract the case ensuring that neither the case nor the bullet contacts either the chamber breech/mouth or the inside wall of the action... Thereby ensuring that the OAL of the cartridge is not affected in any way. THEN; measure the COAL.

What have we accomplished?.... The Max OAL of your PARTICULAR ROUND in the PARTICULAR CHAMBER being checked, From the rifling to the case face, [which SHOULD BE the SAME as to the bolt face]....due to the pressure exerted on the case by the bolt face as it was pushed into place in the chamber. As you should know...NOT ALL chambers measure-out to the same dimensions, and with each DIFFERENT BULLET...You WILL obtain a SEPARATE MAX COAL...DUE TO the different profile of the individual bullet being loaded.

That is the easiest way to measure [individual] chamber MAX COAL dimension for rifles that cannot be checked from the rear of the action. Makes no difference whether it's lever action or semi-auto....Once the bolt is closed and locked...You have your MAX COAL for that particular chamber. From there...Pick your poison for preferred COAL for loading.

PLEASE, Mr. G. I cannot articulate any more clearly what I have already tried to explain..[the procedures we exert in order to accomplish the same results]. Nearly EVERYONE has a different procedure to accomplish the same end result, regardless of the tools and/or steps taken, and as long as that end result is met safely.... Let's not, for lack of clarity, denigrate any other person's procedure in accomplishing that end result, especially when, or if, it does not agree with your preferred method/procedure.

If any member feels [that] I am errant in anything in THIS post, feel free to correct me, and explain why....As I am always open to corrective/constructive criticism, and I feel [that]I can always learn from someone else.


WILL
 
Besides cost!!…. What's the "problem", if any with using the Hornady or Sinclare OAL gauge and comparators to accomplish the same???

I have the Hornady.

The "Modified Cartridge" [drilled and tapped for the gauge] that I have for 30.06 is their "stocked" item so is not fireformed to my chamber, but for my 7x57 I sent them two "once fired" cases and for $15.00 I received one of them back "Modified" (second was a spare in case there were issues with the first drill/tap)

I think the OAL gauge was about $35.00 so not incredibly expensive.

I would imagine that whatever method [homebrew or factory] one should be/is using the comparator as tips deform and ogives are different for different bullets ?
 
NOTE: (This CAN be done with virgin brass, BUT... With the virgin case having NOT been fired in that particular chamber...It will NOT be fireformed to that chamber and therefore--BOLT FACE-TO-SHOULDER DATUM LENGTH....MAY NOT BE...the same length as with the fired case).
Click to expand...

Not my intension, it is possible you failed to read about my trip to the gun show. I said "Datums"

I make datums, I collect datums and there are datums just laying around and no one recognizes them as being 'datums'. It is not something that will ever get discussed on a reloading forum but I use at least three different methods/techniques to measure the length of a chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. Why would I fire a case to determine the length of a chamber when I can measure the length of a case from the shoulder to the case head then add the difference between the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the case head.

F. Guffey
 
THERE YOU GO, G: You just related YOUR method and I do NOT disagree with YOUR method. In fact whatever make you happy in your method....Just tickles my ass plumb to death.
If you remember, it was you, who first started questioning/chiding others' methods of doing things.
So, for the sake of tranquility on the forum, let us keep our deriding and chiding of others' methods to ourselves and I think everyone will be all the happier for it.
This is my FINAL COMMENT on this subject.

WILL
 
Michael: RE; Post 51, There is nothing wrong...and I did not mean to imply that there was...in using commercial equipment in checking anything. I mentioned it only to illustrate that *homemade* tools are just as effective in obtaining the same end results as found with commercially bought equipment, while the person whom I felt was making repeatedly disparaging remarks relevant to my use of my equipment, and said in post #43; "Store bought? Factory made? Me?", was in fact using commercial equipment to obtain his findings. Does the fact [that] he uses that equipment bother me? NOT IN THE LEAST! Only [that] his attitude toward someone who does not follow his way of doing things....DOES.

Not to downplay a cliché, but I believe in "Live and let live"... To those who believe in whatever they believe.

I've never asked, nor do I expect, anyone, to ever agree with me or with whichever way I do things.... Only [that] they respect my way as I respect
theirs.

WILL.
 
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