Beyond SAAMI Specs?

.300 W'by OAL

Dr. Killdeer:
Can't expound on any other Max OAL or anyone else's W'by Max OAL, but MY Vanguard in .300 W'by measures 3.900" on the nose kissin' the rifling with 165 SPEER FB SP. MOAL w/SPEER's 190gr HPM #2080 is 3.935". Max OAL w/HORNADY's 190gr BTHPM bullets (Old style- probably now discontinued) is even longer. WHY current Max OAL is held to only 3.560" is beyond me. That is close to max in the magazine, though.

I load most rounds for the W'by to -.020" MOAL and with one chambered and two fitting in the mag at the longer length on top of two empty cases, I don't feel shorted on available ammo.

BTW: With the extended OAL, I do go up on the load a few grains on powder with corresponding higher velocity over book figures, and so far have not run into any pressure issues. That's just for me and my W'by. I am not advocating that anyone else follow this avenue.

WILL
 
I had every intention of measuring the throat in my friend's 300 Weatherby Mag, but I don't have the blank for it and he didn't a single piece of spent brass that I could modify.

Will, if your measurements are correct, that puts me at ease. I'm loading the 165 grain Nosler AccuBond .020 off the lands. I use a Forster micrometer seating die and it's dead nuts every time. I check every round, measuring from the ogive to verify the consistency. I too am bewildered by the book specs for MOAL.
I guess a factory round has to jump a country mile before the pill engages the rifling. I don't know if that's good or bad, since I've never shot factory ammo, but so far, I'm happy with the way my load prints.

Thanks for the scoop Will.
 
You don't need the official case adapter to get fairly close. Just take a retired case, size it or at least the neck, split the neck with a Dremel cutoff disc or a hack saw. Seat the bullet long, chamber it, remove the bolt and with the muzzle up and your free hand at the back of the receiver, tap on the gun or slowly press a cleaning rod in through the muzzle until the dummy falls out into your hand. Use a single edge razor blade or a scratch awl to mark the bullet at the case mouth. This allows you to return it to position if you accidentally nudge it one way or the other. Apply the comparator.
 
Then there is the other way. Drill out the flash hole/primer pocket of a fired case then neck size the case. After neck sizing seat a bullet, after seating a bullet remove the bolt and then chamber the case. After chambering the case push the bullet out of the case until it contacts the rifling. Once the bullet contacts the rifling, STOP! pushing.

Remove the case with the bullet then use it as a transfer. TRANSFER:eek: Transfer the dimensions of the chamber to the seating die. Meaning adjust the seating die to the transfer making sure the die is not adjusted to crimp.

Then save the transfer to zero the seating die, as in zero off the lands. There is nothing entertaining about seating bullets off the lands for me. I want my bullet to have 'the jump', I want my bullets to have the 'running start' and I want all the bullet hold I can get. Bullet hold? In the scheme of things, bullet hold is a low priority, wouldn't I be something if I somehow managed 60 pounds of bullet hold.

And then there is tension, I do not have neck tension, I have bullet hold, I can measure bullet hold, tension? I do not have a gage that measures tensions, pounds only.

F. Guffey
 
.300 W'by MOAL

U.NICK; F. G:

I've done my MOAL checking somewhat similar to the both of you. I've drilled and tapped the primer hole of a fired case with a slightly crimped mouth--just enough to hold the bullet but not so tight as to restrict the bullet from sliding into the case easily or to engrave the bullet too much into the rifling. I prefer for the bullet to touch the rifling just enough to leave a mark on the bullet through the permanent marker film, and you can readily see if the bullet has been pulled from the case mouth upon exiting the chamber.

With a #10 or #12 threaded rod about 12" long locked into the case with a locknut and the bolt removed, I insert/remove the case into/from the rear of the action. I do this 5 times with the same case, but with different bullets from the same box/lot and average the MOAL. Usually, I'm within .001". I also lock the caliper jaws at .300", mark a slight ring on the ogive through the permanent marker and take a reading of each round from the case's base to the ring. Again, within .001". Close enough for me, as I gave up trying to do Bench-Rest-Precision-Work long ago, and I still achieve MOA to sub-MOA with my more-accurate rifles.

If I am in somewhat of a hurry.... I just chamber a marked round with the bolt, very slowly and easily extract the round ensuring that the bullet is not allowed to beat against the chamber mouth or inside of the action by holding it with my fingers, and follow through with the measuring procedure.

I generally load a dummy round for each rifle w/the different bullets used and have dedicated dies for each rifle. I just adjust the seater die for each rifle when loading different/new bullets. A little more expensive, yes, but once I find the right figures, I don't like to keep changing back and forth, and taking forever to get things set up right again.

Just the way I've gotten used to doing things over the years. And it works well for me.. Everyone has their own preferred way which works best for them.

WILL.
 
I've drilled and tapped the primer hole
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I don't tape the hole, I use a cleaning rod. I am not a fan of starting over every morning. I do not have to make one for every bullet.

Just the way I've gotten used to doing things over the years. And it works well for me.. Everyone has their own preferred way which works best for them.
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F. Guffey
 
I use the Hornady L&L gauge to accomplish the task and it seems to work well. I'm not creative enough to make my own stuff, but it's something I'll file for future reference!

Guffey, you're a fan of the running start and I'm curious to know why. Uncle Nick posted the chart for pressure ratings relative to the distance from the lands and it clearly shows a significant decrease in pressure at .020 to .025 from the rifling. Then it rises again as the bullet jump increases.

I spoke to a guy at Hornady to ask why they recommend seating no closer than .020 from the rifling and his answer was "pressure." Controlling it translates to accuracy, along with a half a million other variables, but Uncle Nick's chart provides some interesting base line data for seating depth that's a good starting point, especially when you're working up a load for a new rifle.

Keep in mind that I'm not a match shooter. I'm working up a load for Mullies that will perform at 300 yards. Granted, it looks like a big target, but sometimes you don't have the whole kill zone exposed. I'm loading for that scenario.
 
Number one, I want to know the distance from the beginning of the rifling to the bolt face. Then I want my bullets past the rifling before they have a chance to think about slowing down. And I never want my bullet setting at the rifling thinking about going or staying, or hesitating.

And then there are variations and the ability to hold consist readings when measured. I was most impressed with a rifle I purchased for $150.00, it came with two boxes of 30/06 R-P ammo, both the rifle and the ammo was purchased in the early 60s from Sears. I purchased the rifle and ammo from the original owner. The rifle was built by Santa Fe. No one at the gun show wanted any part of it. I did not tell them everything I knew about the rifle, but, I knew they did not know what they were talking about.

I purchased a non Weatherby, I did not load for it, after 74 rounds through it started shooting one hole groups. I never wondered where the rifling began, the rifle has a non Weatherby chamber.

Had a Winchester Model 70 with a 300 Win Mag chamber, it shot like a shotgun, it shot patterns. I sent the rifle back to Winchester, We had words.

F. Guffey
 
Dr. K: If I may jump in..... and Mr. G. I mean no disrespect, But I think I might be able to answer Doc's question.

Doc.... I am assuming [that] you are familiar with the burning characteristics of Smokeless Powder. It burns progressively faster as pressure increases in the confined space of the chamber. When the primer ignites the powder and it starts burning, the pressure in the chamber reaches the point where the friction of the neck holding the bullet is overridden and the bullet begins to move. At his moment... the pressure from the burning powder is easing off (dropping) until the bullet engages the rifling and then, at that point, the pressure begins to rise again....due to the continuing burning of the powder increasing the pressure. The farther away the bullet is from the rifling, the more the pressure drops until engagement w/the rifling, then it spikes again. If the bullet is tight against the rifling before ignition, the pressure will have a tendency to spike to unsafe levels, depending on burning rate, because the bullet has nowhere to go to help lower the pressure build-up. This practice is used by many Bench-Resters; However they seldom load for high/max pressure and since most of them load reduced charges of powder, pressures are generally not that high...Although there is the [exception to that rule].

However, in any case, the total pressure in the chamber is reached before the bullet's base has fully left the case mouth. In short...The pressure has *spiked* fully before the bullet has even fully left the case, hence, the pressure reading from the transducer.

Now as the bullet travels down the bore, the gasses from the burning powder continue to expand until the bullet reaches a certain point in the barrel where the volume of the burning gas has reached its limit and the pressure begins to subside but is still high enough to override the friction of the rifling on the bullet until the bullet exits the muzzle.

The slower the burning rate of the powder... the farther down the bore the larger volumetric expansion of the gas pushes the bullet until the pressure starts dropping, resulting in higher velocity due less distance to the muzzle and the resulting less friction on the bullet.

Having said that.... you can use a powder with a burning rate which is too slow for the cartridge size/volume, resulting in far less velocity than can be achieved with a slightly slower burning powder. And also.... using a powder with too fast a burning rate can/will result in lower velocity, even though the chamber pressure is higher than with the slower burning powder, again, due to the volumetric expansion characteristic of the ratio of the faster burn rate to bore volume, ( Larger bore>>>more volume>>>more gas expansion volume from faster burning powder>>>quicker/sooner dissipation of pressure while friction continues resulting in lower velocity). The bullet has farther to travel before exiting, with lessening pressure and constant friction from the rifling.

Conversely, a too-slow burning rate with the same length barrel does not allow the burning gas's volume to expand sufficiently enough to reach higher velocity before the bullet exits the muzzle, again, resulting in lower velocity, (and incidentally, a huge muzzle flash from the ever-expanding gasses when they hit the oxygen in the air)

All the above, of course is relative to the same cartridge/bullet/test barrel; or using the same rifle for all testing with the same components.

As an example: The following figures are straight from a DuPont IMR Handloader's Guide,'71-'72 [.30-06 150gr. 24" Barrel .260" Seat]

POWDER CHARGE/grains VELOCITY/fps CHAMBER PRESSURE
IMR 4227 30.0 2310 49,200 CUP
IMR 4198 39.0 2600 50,000 CUP
IMR 3031 47.0 2820 50,000 CUP
IMR 4895 51.5 2695 51,000 CUP
IMR 4064 52.0 2910 49,700 CUP
IMR 4320 52.5 2850 50,000 CUP
IMR 4350 61.0 3000 50,000 CUP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The following is from IMR Handloader's Guide (11/89)
.30-06/REM CASE/9-1/2PR/REM 150gr PTD SPCL/23"BBL/3.2"C.O.L.

SR 4759 31.0 2365 49,700 CUP
IMR 4227 30.0 2310 50,000 CUP
IMR 4198 38.0 2600 50,000 CUP
IMR 3031 49.5 2850 49,800 CUP
IMR 4064 52.0 2885 50,000 CUP
IMR 4895 49.5 2845 50,000 CUP
IMR 4320 51.0 2825 50,000 CUP
IMR 4350 59.0(C) 2825 47,800 CUP
IMR 4831 59.0(C) 2715 42,900 CUP


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I listed these figures only to show the pressure readings from the past method (CUP) and the different pressure/velocity comparisons of the same burning rated powders from the same manufacturer over the 10-15 yr. time span, and to show how some [quicker burning] powders can/will give higher velocities at lower pressures than some [slower burning] powders

I fully realize that these charge weight figures are really old and some are considered way too high by today's data, but they should give you some insight as to why NOTHING (DATA-WISE) should be either [Engraved in stone] or [taken for granted] that the other data from someone else's use will be safe in your guns.

I sincerely hope that I have not confused you in any way with this bit of information. It was passed on to me (the pressure-related info), years ago by someone in the USA MTU while I was stationed at Ft. Benning.

WILL.
 
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Will, actually that all makes perfect sense to me. I realize that once the bullet exceeds the coefficient of friction, any irregularity or drag will cause a pressure spike, some mild and some not, including contact with the rifling. The powder burn rate, relative to the length of the barrel is important to achieve the optimum velocity without excessive pressure and that's what I'm going to play with as I tweak the load. The Chrony will squeal on irregular velocities. Many things could change before I reach the garden of Eden, including bullet set back, bullet weight, powder, neck tension and a host of other variables, but I won't know that until I get it up to speed. Fortunately, the guy I bought the rifle from had 20 rounds of fire formed brass that his father shot in the rifle and that saved me at least one trip to the range.

The question for me was; how close to the rifling should I load to start? After talking to the guys at HORNADY, then looking over Uncle Nick's chart and also chewing the fat with some bench rest guys, I decided on a starting point of .020. The throat in that rifle is longer than I expected and I didn't realize it until I moved the bullet up to my starting spec. I'm not a fan of an excessively long running start anyway, but the final OAL really surprised me.

And you're right! The bench rest guys at our range load on, or very close to the rifling using reduced charges. Their objective is to have one elongated hole for a five shot string. I give them a lot of credit for punching holes in paper with non expanding bullets at phoenaminal distances, but that's not me!

Working up a new hunting load is a tedious process that requires meticulous attention to details, precise documentation and MANY, MANY trips to the rage without a hangover. Trial and error.....for me, mostly error!!! But once I determine the rifle's favorite diet, I'll be able to work up a long range load for it.

It's interesting to note the evolution of printed data. In particular, the copper crusher (CUP) method vs the modern electronic transducer method of measuring chamber pressure leaves me with a question. In Lee's Modern Reloading manual, some values are given in PSI and some in CUP. Does that mean that the CUP values are 25+ years old and haven't been tested in recent times? The Nosler Reloading Guide doesn't even list pressure values in their data. Propellants have come a long way in the last twenty years. In my nimble mind, those values should either be standardized or omitted completely.

Thanks again for your very insightful perspective Will. I appreciate it, along with any future suggestions you're willing to share.
 
Ken didn’t do any special load tweaking for this record group. However, he explained that he changed his seating depth last summer, going from .018″ jump to .028″ jump. That minor change, Ken noted, “really seemed to close up the groups”.
Click to expand...

F. Guffey
 
SAMMI SPECS

DOC:
Just got off the phone wit Dave Campbell at Hodgdon about the PSI/CUP question, as I have thought about it too. Consensus seems to be that the established CUP data is solid and updating to Piezo is somewhat cost-restrictive for the present... throughout the industry, So the CUP/PSI data are interspersed even for the same cartridge.

In all honesty, I would not worry too much about bullet/land distance in the COAL as long as the accuracy is acceptable to you. Case in point: Back in the late'80s-early '90s, I loaded some [quite accurate] rounds for my Ruger .308 Varminter w/IMR 4895/WW/210....a load which was, [at that time], over-max in a few manuals but which later was actually .3gr under max in Hodgdon's newer annual guides.

LSS- Wanting to try something else, I loaded some rounds in surplus LC brass, not giving a second-thought to the difference in case capacity, put them on the shelf, forgot about them, got called up for The Storm, and later, after returning, blinked more than just a couple times at the difference in velocities while chronoing the loads after I got my Oehler 35P in '91. [Better than 100 FPS higher than with the WW brass, and larger grouping than I got initially with the Nos. 150 SB and BT bullets. Not wanting to tear down the loads, I simply seated the bullets to a full .125" B/L jump, [initial jump was .005"], hoping to relieve some of the pressure signs--primer flattening/cratering etc.

Subsequent shooting showed velocities back down near what they were with WW brass, but the groups were actually tighter. Go figure. Since then, I've started my new loads' OAL at .125" jump, work forward, and don't worry about max OAL as long as they are accurate and I seldom load OAL any closer than .025" jump.

One thing I do is: I expand my virgin case necks with an oversize expander ball (.318" for the.30 cal. cases), and then size the necks back down to where they are a tight fit in their respective chambers, leaving a slight 'bump' at the neck/shoulder junction which seems to aid in centering the case neck in the chamber and therefore....accuracy....for me, at least. Haven't done all my calibers yet, but I'm working on it.

We'll see how things work out. Catch you later.

WILL.
 
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Just got off the phone wit Dave Campbell at Hodgdon about the PSI/CUP question, as I have thought about it too. Consensus seems to be that the established CUP data is solid and updating to Piezo is somewhat cost-restrictive for the present... throughout the industry, So the CUP/PSI data are interspersed even for the same cartridge.
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The case does not have an exemption, when fired the case is in the chamber. Like Clark, I have fired a few rounds that turned into something ugly when fired. some of the cases I have fired were in receivers that were advertised as suspect. 4 rifles for $100.00, I cut the barrels to make chamber gages, the bolt faces were gas cut, the stocks were made of wood. The only part left to test was the receiver.

There was no chance of reloading the fired cases because the primer pockets opened up, the flash hole increased i8n diameter, the primer pockets would not hold a primer, then there was the shell holder, I could no longer get the case to fit a shell holder and the case head was thinner from the cup above the web to the case head.

If only there was something in the chamber that could be correlated to pressure readings.

F. Guffey
 
Guff, that is truly amazing! 1000 yards with stock brass! The rifle was not exactly your garden variety, off the shelf gun, but still it's an impressive accomplishment. There's something to be said about the distance between the bullet and the lands and I'm hoping to find that sweet spot for this one as well.

Years ago, I worked up a 300 yard load for my Sako 7mm Mag and at the very last stage it got erratic. I increased the powder charge .5 and it opened my groups up, but I was still one full grain under book max. I concluded, without any scientific basis, that it was probably barrel harmonics!
An old bench rest guy (even older than me) was observing my frustration and after some discussion he said, if it was his call, he would start by adjusting the seating depth first, as opposed to putzing with the charge weight. He was absolutely right. Before the next outing I pushed the bullet down to .040 off the rifling and it was like shooting a different rifle.

I'm still a fan of reducing bullet jump. The big question for any rifle is, How Much? There's no magic formula. Only live fire results will tell.
 
Over SAAMI?

Mr. G: I can't expound on Mr. Campbell's comments on the CUP/PSI differentiation, and don't really understand the cost equation of converting/updating from Crusher method to Piezo for all testing; Only what he told me. As best I remember, he understands that OLIN is the only entity using/supplying the crushers for the CUP testing. IF I misunderstood him, then I'll stand corrected. Other than that, I was under the impression that the Crusher method results have later been tested by the Piezo method, confirmed, and found to be totally safe...Hence the continued listing in their manuals along with the PSI testing data. I did not get into an in-depth discussion with him on the subject, as I felt he may have been busy with some other matter at the time, so I cut it short.

I understand only the basics of the Crusher method, so I can't/won't get into any extended discussion except to say [that] tests and results done with one set of components will vary (often greatly) with any other set of components...Even to the extent you mention.

WILL.

DOC: RE: Deeper seating the bullet. The change in barrel harmonics and resulting increase in accuracy probably was/is effected due to the change in pressure spikes/curves resulting from the deeper seating of the bullet. There is so much we don't know/understand about these areas [not being experts ourselves], we can only speculate on them; Something I hesitate to do, lest one might assume that I am an authority in this area, which, definitely, I am not. I can attest only to that which I have simply done on my own and can relay the results, however they play out. And, it seems [that] you learned first-hand, one result of deeper seating in some instances.

WILL.
 
I've drilled and tapped the primer hole of a fired case with a slightly crimped mouth--just enough to hold the bullet but not so tight as to restrict the bullet from sliding into the case easily or to engrave the bullet too much into the rifling.
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And then? Slightly crimped mouth? Just enough to hold the bullet?

I want all the bullet hold I can get, 40 pounds +/- 5 pounds: WHY? Because I do not want the bullet moving, difficult to push out of the case? I like that in a case neck. Because? When I remove the case with the drilled out primer pocket/flash hole I have a copy of the chamber dimensions, I use the copy to transfer the dimensions to the seating die.

If I use a case with all the bullet hold I can get I do not have to worry about movement. I do not have to start over the next day.

I know, and I understand reloaders are required to start over every day with another bullet and case, I am no different except when I start over I am starting on another chamber.

I am not the 'seat the bullet into the lands' reloader. All I need to know is 'where are the lands' in relation to the bolt face. I am only required to do it once.

F. Guffey

You drilled and tapped? Why do you tap the drilled hole?
 
MR. G:
I have read and re-read your post ( #38) and am trying my damndest to understand whether you really do not understand it, or if you are just trying to get a rise out of me. Either way, I'll spell it out for you step-by-step, and try to make it easier.

When trying a load for any NEW bullet...

(1): I deprime a fired case from the rifle I intend to load.
(2): I drill the primer pocket and tap it, with either a 5/32" drill (10-32 rod) OR with a 11/64"drill for a 12-24 rod, depending on the caliber/primer pocket size, run a nut onto the rod, thread the rod into the case, and lock down the nut. Either rod is 12"+/-.
(3): I then squeeze the case mouth with my fingers just enough to hold the bullet tight enough to let it slide in the neck, but not fall out.
(4): I remove the bolt from the rifle and insert the case with the bullet in its mouth, (and long enough to engage the rifling), into the chamber from the rear of the action until the case pushes against the chamber shoulder.
(5): I remove the case from the chamber, and measure the COAL. I do this five times and average-out the readings.
(6): I then adjust the COAL for that rifle/load and make up a dummy round to set my seater die for future loading with that bullet. When I size the mouth/neck for the dummy round, I do not have the expander ball in the die. Therefore, I have a neck hold on the bullet tighter than a miser's fist around a penny.
(7): When it comes time to load some ammo with that bullet, I insert the dummy round with that bullet in the shell holder and raise the ram, I set the seater stem to contact the bullet and lock it down.

IF, for ANY reason, you do not understand the preceding procedure, then in my opinion, you are either too over-the -hill to continue in the reloading business, OR you should probably find someone to guide you along with any further reloading. NOW, MR. G: Did you get the [rise} out of me you were looking for?

WILL.

BTW: When you [tap] a hole...You make threads in the hole for a threaded bolt or all-thread rod. BUT....Don't take my word for it...Check with a machinist.
 
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I have read and re-read your post ( #38) and am trying my damndest to understand whether you really do not understand it, or if you are just trying to get a rise out of me.
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You give me two options? There is rational, why do you insist I agree with you. I said I want all the bullet hold I can get. I know, there is the technique that turns the neck of a case into a squid looking thing, a case with a shredded neck for the sole purpose of reducing bullet hold. I want all the bullet hold I can get. WHY?

I use the test case/transfer to adjust my seating die. After pushing the bullet out of the case and into the lands my transfer is ZERO off the lands, AND, there is a chance the bullet could be pulled out of the case without bullet hold, again, I want all the bullet hold I can get, 40 pounds is a good number.

I have the Hornady/Sinclair tool complete with primer pockets drilled and tapped, problem! The cases were not fired in my chambers and the case necks do not have enough bullet hold, I am the fan of bullet hold because I use the test/transfer case to adjust my seating die.

I am not the fan of seating bullets at or into the lands, all I want to know is the distance from the lands to the bolt face. I could measure the test case/transfer, I choose to use the test case/transfer to adjust the seating die. Again, I want all the bullet hold I can get, I do not believe it should be necessary for me to go to the trouble of making the transfer only to bump it and then be required to start over.

I know, reloaders start seating a bullet, they adjust the seating stem down, raise the ram, lower the ram, remove the case and then measure, they repeat this procedure over and over and over until? I don't, I adjust the seating die once with the transfer, once I adjust the seating die to the transfer my seating die is adjusted to 'ZERO' off the lands.

Zero off the lands!:eek: Yes, zero off the lands. WHY? All of my seating dies are micro adjust, all of my seating plugs have threads and all of my seating plug stems protrude above the die. All I have to do is zero my dial caliper/height gage to the seating stem above the die to zero. AND THEN? If I choose to seat the bullet .025" off the lands I lower the stem .025".

AND THEN if I do not allow the bullet to move in the transfer case neck I do not have to start over the next day, I can use my transfer. Then the part that will drive you to the curb.

I have read and re-read your post ( #38) and am trying my damndest to understand
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What I do is not for everyone. You insist on using cases with loose necks, I don't. For about $8.00 a reloader can purchase cases that are drilled and tapped with loose necks. I want all the bullet hold I can get. I do not have trouble pushing bullets out of the neck and into the lands. PUSH:eek: with a cleaning rod. Again, all I want to know is 'WHERE ARE THE LANDS?'

I have pushed bullets out of the case neck before the bullet made contact with the lands. Again, I want to know the distance from the lands to the bolt face.

When I adjust the seating die with the transfer it is not necessary to use a comparator/OAL gage, again, when I zero the dial caliper to the stem I have eliminated a lot of variable causing tools. And time, I have saved time, and I am not required to start over the next day because I am not worried the neck of my transfer is going to fail me.

F. Guffey
 
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