Better place to buy first time: gun show or dealer

Bama Mike, I was told by the person I mentioned earlier, volunteer deputy, that .45 velocity is what stops the other person as it is effective in trauma to the brain. Anything smaller would not do that unless it is a special type of bullet.

I'm not counting on the fact that I'll be so good I'll hit the other person in vital areas that would stop them instantly.
 
Bama Mike, I was told by the person I mentioned earlier, volunteer deputy, that .45 velocity is what stops the other person as it is effective in trauma to the brain.
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Sounds like a first hand report.
 
Sunnycoast, many here are committed to helping new shooters. I did not disparage your choices, although I don't think they are necessarily the best for a new shooter. Your dismissal of the .22 cartridge as insignificant, silly comments regarding 9 mm, and your complete lack of understanding of how bullets incapacitate tells me you know little about firearms. I don't fault you for not knowing what you don't know.

Your friend may be a volunteer police officer, but he doesn't know beans from buckshot about this subject. Many here do. Ask your questions, and then "listen" to the answers. Quoting your unknowing friend will just slow down the process. Good luck.
 
Cheap case/ gun sock in some locals is the minimum requirement under Law to tote any firearm in public area.. And is usually supplied buy the seller as a convenience to his costumer.. Up grade case's are the responsibility of the buyer to pay for.. Unless such Case is made part of the dealer/buyers sale agreement.
 
K Mac - I don't mean to be dismissive of .22. My gut feeling is I'll get bored of it more quickly than not. I'm sure it depends.
 
Sunnycoast: I've been shooting for over 60 years and I still shoot the 22lr often. It's good practice to keep basic shooting skills in tune. I am a 45 fan, but that is from years of association with the round. The effective difference in the 45 and the 9mm is minimal when bullet choice is available.
My suggestion is that you get a 22 and whatever center fire you decide upon. But you have been given some good advice on this board..
 
Allen__ is my choice of case for rifle & pistol since both have always been transported in my truck. Have never flew any where's. Have always driven to those Elk & deer hunting camps and club Ranges..
I much prefer cloth over nylon and vinyl for my exterior case coverings.
 
sunnycoast said:
Bama Mike, I was told by the person I mentioned earlier, volunteer deputy, that .45 velocity is what stops the other person as it is effective in trauma to the brain. Anything smaller would not do that unless it is a special type of bullet.

I'm not counting on the fact that I'll be so good I'll hit the other person in vital areas that would stop them instantly.
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I am not trying to make a fool of the deputy who told you all this but he is wrong.

The .45acp is one of the slowest (muzzle velocity) bullets of the handgun calibers. Its mass weight, bullet grain, is what is devastating to body tissue. Its a heavy bullet that carries its mass with authority. It also is a large caliber, over all size, and makes a larger wound channel.

Any bullet to the brain can cause enough damage to incapacitate or kill. Depends on what part of the brain it damages. Actually, smaller faster bullets sometime tend to bounce around inside the skull and do a lot of damage.

Lets look at small bullets versus big bullets. If you want to compare damage, look at animal tissue that has been hit by .45acp and compare it to hits from a rifle bullet such as 5.56mm or .308win. Even though the .45acp is a much larger bullet it is traveling much slower than the rifle bullets. Rifle bullets are screaming fast and deliver devastating results due to velocity.

But at any rate, you counting on a bullet to stop a threat is bad medicine. You are much better off to become proficient at hitting your intended target rather than hoping a big fat bullet will do it for you.
 
But at any rate, you counting on a bullet to stop a threat is bad medicine. You are much better off to become proficient at hitting your intended target rather than hoping a big fat bullet will do it for you.
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Everything Bama Mike said is true, .45 ACP has about the least velocity of all handgun rounds. It's actually slow enough that if you stand at the right angle from the shooter and the light is just right sometimes you can see the bullet in flight. .45 ACP generally leaves the muzzle at around 850fps, which is subsonic. 9mm leaves the muzzle around 1100 to 1200fps, which is supersonic.

Like Bama said, relying on a big fat bullet as opposed to good shot placement is faulty strategy. You are talking about a difference of less than 1/100th of an inch (.355" vs .451") in diameter between bullets. There is not a hill of beans difference in hitting someone with a .45 versus a 9mm. Unless the hill of beans in question is .096 inches tall ;)

And like I said earlier, Law Enforcement Officers are not necessarily firearms experts by default, I work with a bunch of them. My co workers come to me for advice for their backup or off duty carry guns. Not that I'm a genius by any means but they know I've done my research.

If you want home defense firearm and don't want to worry (too much) about shot placement then you need a 12ga shotgun. Long guns are easier to make hits with than handguns. No shotguns don't fill an entire hallway with lead like the movies but if you place the bead somewhere on the torso at 0-15 yards and squeeze the trigger you will likely put lead in a vital organ, assuming you are using buckshot.

Don't buy a .45 just because someone has sold you on all the old .45 myths, handgun "stopping power" is a myth and nothing more. Shot placement with a round that can penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs is the only "stopping power" in regards to handguns. I don't hate .45, I actually love it (don't get me started on .40SW) but any time a new shooter asks me what they should get I recommend a larger pistol chambered in 9mm like the Glock 17, 19, Smith and Wesson MP9, or (my favorite) the CZ75. This is for the simple fact that 9mm is perfectly adequate for self defense while still providing minimal recoil and cost to practice.

The last two people I recommended handguns for were my parents, my mother listened to my advice and got a Glock 19 9mm, my father didn't and got a lightweight Kimber 1911 in .45... Guess which one wants a new handgun now?
 
Looking at the business end of a handgun is attention getting. Looking at the business end of a BIG BORE is overwhelmingly scary.

Frankly speaking: Its isn't the kind of gun and caliber size that stops a threat. Being proficient with what you have in hand does.

I never promote a specific hand-gun or a cartridge for any ones use. What I promote is some other go to a indoor range and let management Pro's do the suggesting promoting and teaching.

What better cartridge for unexpected danger.> 45 ACP.
45 acp has a on going reputation to this day as a man stopper.
A cartridges all others try to measure too since 1904.
 
Gun show. But, you better know what you want and what a fair price for it is. And, if you don't put in the time and effort to research exactly what you want, a gun show will be overwhelming and you won't end up buying exactly what you want. For me, gun shows almost always present me with better deals than gun shops.

As for gun cases - no; I buy the gun. If it comes with the original box/case, I'll factor that into my price. I have enough cases at home to transport the guns I'll be shooting. Original boxes get wrapped up and tossed into my attic.

Also, would you recommend a stock AR-15 for a first timer?
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If you want one I recommend you buy one. As for which is best, or what is a good deal - you will need to spend considerable time researching what is available and then decide what you want and what your budget is.

There are very few guns out there that a beginner can't shoot fairly easily with some instruction. 5.56 AR's are very common and easy to shoot. High-powered, large bore/caliber big game rifles and handguns more powerful than .357 or .40sw are definitely not good beginner choices. Even .357 and .40 in a small or lightweight gun will be difficult for a beginner.

IMHO, new gun owners who think they want semi-auto large capacity handguns or rifles are under pressure to buy now and then learn how to use them. Otherwise, you may never get what you want.
 
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Just gotta' ask:
If someone with extremely limited experience asked these kinds of questions about fast cars or motorcycles instead of guns, would this conversation still be going the same way?
 
Fast cars, motorcycles and guns are not comparable. Guns are extremely simple machines compared to cars and motorcycles. They are also extremely cheap machines compared to fast cars and motorcycles. With a little instruction, almost all competent and healthy adults can pick up a revolver, point it down range and fire it without hurting themselves or others. Trying to ride a full-sized motorcycle for the first time with limited instruction is just not the same as shooting a .38 revolver.

I would, however, place full-auto small and sub machine guns in a "higher risk" category than ordinary hand guns and rifles. Still, guns are more comparable to sewing machines, not fast cars and fast motorcycles.
 
Hmm, you may be right and I might be overly critical over this business of training.
But then I had instruction for rifles at summer camp at an early age, before ever handling a firearm.
The same for buying my first pistol, a .22.
The dealer insisted on being sure a kid with no auto loader experience was at least safe to be around before leaving his store with his new gun.
I've seen too many people, both young and old, at public ranges without a clue.
And it definitely takes a lot of fun out of things.
 
g.willikers said:
If someone with extremely limited experience asked these kinds of questions about fast cars or motorcycles instead of guns, would this conversation still be going the same way?
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Truth, although there are some conceptual similarities, which brings me to this...
sunnycoast said:
My gut feeling is I'll get bored of [.22LR] more quickly than not. I'm sure it depends.
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My advice for you is DON'T think of handguns the way many people think of high-performance cars or motorcycles; don't get hung up on the perceived need for MOAR POWUR!! and the closely-related perception that less-powerful types are for novices or wimps.

The fundamental skills are the same regardless of power level. Getting good at those fundamentals is cheaper and easier at low power levels. Jumping to high power levels too soon can cause you to develop bad habits that may be difficult to overcome.

Most really good handgun shooters shoot a LOT of .22LR. It is NOT reserved for novices. "Experts" who claim otherwise generally don't have as much actual expertise as they claim. :rolleyes:

(ETA: If you've hung out at an actual oval or road-race track, there's a similar phenomenon at work with people who race cars or motorcycles; the drivers who are really fast in the slow vehicles are generally also really fast in the faster ones, and can usually spank the new guy who jumped straight to the fast kind because he decided that the slow ones were "boring". :rolleyes:)
 
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Lets keep in mind that being able to safely use a firearm is a far cry from being a competition shooter. I too learned to shoot from the time I was 8 at camp and had plenty of opportunity to shoot rifles and handguns during my teens and 20's. But, I submit that someone can learn to shoot a 9mm like a Hi-Power or CZ 75b well enough and safe enough to hit a target at 25 feet without having to first shoot a .22lr and with only about 1 hour of instruction.

To refine your shooting skills a .22 is a good tool. But, to most new shooters, they are boring to shoot. You can't really convince someone that something is not boring if they think it is!
 
Boredom is possible while putting in the focused trigger time required to become really proficient with a firearm, given that it takes thousands of repetitions, with constant attention to the details of what you're doing. It will, however, be a lot faster with a .22, since you can go through several hundred rounds in a day without beating up too badly on either your wallet or your body.

And at least for me, there's nothing boring at all about seeing the improvement in my shooting over such a session. :D
 
carguychris said:
...don't get hung up on the perceived need for MOAR POWUR!! and the closely-related perception that less-powerful types are for novices or wimps.

The fundamental skills are the same regardless of power level. Getting good at those fundamentals is cheaper and easier at low power levels. Jumping to high power levels too soon can cause you to develop bad habits that may be difficult to overcome.
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That's an apt analogy and fine advice.

It does assume that the person wants to learn how to drive well. If he wants a Viper mostly so he can pull up to his friend's house and make a lot of noise, selling him on the value of shifter carts is going to be tough.

We've all shot next to the fellow who brings a .44 magnum to the range and can't hit paper but can't wait to tell you about the big muzzle flash or how the ammunition cost will impoverish him, but he shoots it anyway because a "pop gun" is boring. He is a close relative of the shooter who puts a 44 magnum into his girlfriend's hands the first time they go to the range.

I don't begrudge the viper owning 44 magnum shooter any of his fun, but the .22 shooter who drives the shifter cart seems more interested in the activity than the thing.
 
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sunnycoast said:
Any inputs on online purchase? Grabagun.com seems to be a top site.
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You're still a first-time buyer. If you buy from the Internet, all you know about your new gun is what you read in magazines and/or on the Errornet. Most all of the print magazines (and their on-line siblings) are biased -- they simply won't say anything really bad about any gun maker who advertises in their pages. Comments and "reviews" on the Internet are produced by people about whom you know nothing, so how can you form an opinion of a prospective gun from their posts?

Lastly, to a degree how well a gun shoots for you is dependent on how well the gun fits you and how comfortable it is for you to hold and shoot. You can't even begin to assess that from photos or videos on the Internet.
 
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