Best shotgun shell for self defense in an apartment.

what shotgun shell would you use if you lived in an apartment?

  • 00 Buck

    Votes: 56 35.9%

  • #4 Buck

    Votes: 49 31.4%

  • Turkey Shot

    Votes: 14 9.0%

  • #4 bird shot

    Votes: 37 23.7%
  • Total voters
    156
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This is one of those "unwinable" arguments. Buckshot vs Birdshot. I live in an apartment too. I have neighbors above me and on both sides of me. I know I have the RIGHT to protect myself, but I think my neighbors have the RIGHT NOT to have my defensive choice in of projectiles going through THEIR walls, wife, kids, pets, dishes, furniture or anything else.
Just about every HD situation I have ever heard about is at somewhere from a foot or two to across the room. Most apartments aren't set up with "huge" rooms to shoot across, even the hallways are generally not very long.
I use BIRDSHOT in my Berreta 390, yep a semi auto, I know, I am supposed to have a pump to insure the gun will function.
My loads areRemington Premier Copper #4 shot. The payload is 1 3/4 ounces and travelling at 1300 fps. That is about the weight of 2 deer slugs and at about the same speed. The impact inertia is off the chart compared to most any other shotshell load.
Having patterened many of these loads, I will tell you, that at across the room distance there is almost NO SPREAD.
I have experimented some shooting at various things, water bottles, sheets of plywood and of course drywall.
A shot to center of mass of a bad guy at room distances is going to open his chest up to where they can do open heart surgery without a scalpel to open.
A hit to the face will most likely remove all features to where his mother wouldn't know him.
I have always agreed, 00 buckshot is the "benchmark" for defensive loads, BUT in many cases my Turkey load at the across the room distance will do as well.
If i lived alone out in the country, yep 00buck would be my choice. Since I don't I feel VERY confident my Turkey loads will take care of my problem, that is, if it ever comes up. Course, in 65 years now, it hasn't come up. Hopefully never.
 
Without meaning disrespect to GSUEagle...

... it isn't necessarily appropriate to say, "For home defense, look what the military uses."

Generally speaking, from a military perspective, we don't worry about overpenetration. We usually select with barrier penetration in mind - vehicles, light body armor, etc.

While we may worry about trying to limit explosive ordnance to the minimum necessary to achieve an objective, I've never heard anybody from operators to acquisitions discuss what rounds to acquire to achieve only the minimum required penetration in an apartment building.
 
Ok, who here has SEEN first hand the effects of bird shot on a human at close range?




I have, more than I would like, believe me, and at the ranges you are talking about in an apartment (unless you are talking NYC 6000 square foot TV land apartment) bird shot will do all you want it to do.

One victim was shot by his own gun, he had laid it on the boat rail and climbed out, the dog or the action of him pulling the boat up, caused the gun to discharge. he was about 6 foot from the muzzle, HE was DRT. He had a clean hole thru his chest about 2 inches in diameter, and he was wearing heavy winter clothing as well as waders.

I witnessed another recovery where a ND killed a hunter at about 15 feet from recounts of the others. One hunter was tracking ducks coming in low, when another stood up and stepped into his line of fire. again, DRT< complete thru and thru penetration, and the overly eager hunter who did not listen to the rules was dead instantly.




Now go measure how far it would be from your muzzle to the furthest point of contact with a BG in your apartment, I am going to guess that its not much more than 5 or 7 yards, quite probably less, and think about my two examples of REAL shootings, not extrapolations or inventive thinking but real world lead vs body events. # 4 or # 6 in an apartment is going to do the job very well.
 
Ok, who here has SEEN first hand the effects of bird shot on a human at close range?
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1971, White Sands Missile range, friend of mine got a face full of 7 1/2 shot when our resident idiot and self proclaimed gun expert put his shotgun in the rack of the pickup. He didn't bother unloading it after lecturing everybody else that they should do so. When he released the gun and withdrew his finger from the trigger guard he fired the gun. It went through the metal body of the cab and into the side of my friends head. He was about 4' from the truck when he got hit, some of the shot was imbedded in his skull and probably still is, Doctor said he is lucky to be alive. A lot of the shot is still in his face and his eye is gone. He was a good man, just married, intended to make the military a career but instead got discharged with a medical.
 
What the bleep is turkey shot? That isn't a size of shot, that's a marketing term. Most times I see "turkey" shot, it's #4 birdshot. The marketing term doesn't make it penetrate it anymore.
 
some turkey loads are BB and no 2 shot. some are duplex loads, either way. its a big load of bird shot, but its not a specific size, granted.

Re the shotgun in the truck, that hit the victim after going thru two pieces of shaped 22 guage steel or more. It still nearly killed him, I am willing to bet a lot of the shot was deformed and deflected by the the door post. think about that same wound without the two layers of steel?
 
it could penetrate the walls of course but beyond the wall, the lethality will deminish, (don't miss).
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that's why I use a giant cartoon handgun like the one in who framed roger rabbit? I like sentient ammo that can pick it's target!:D
 
I think turkey "loads" instead of "shot" would be more accurtate. Most Turkey loads are either 4,5 or 6 and while the shot is the same size they are often plated to make them harder to give tighter patterns and petter penetration.. They use more expensive shot cups to enhance tighter groups and they usually squeeze a few more pellets into each shell or load them to higher velocity than standard loads. If buckshot were not available, turkey laods would be my 2nd choice.
 
Small birdshot is the ticket in a shotgun for home defense. The wounds caused at close range with birdshot are grisly. At say, 15 feet a load of birdshot will nearly tear a man in two.

00 buck and others like that will carry through the walls and maybe hurt those whom you do not want to hurt.

Concerning loading latter rounds with slugs, etc.. It is a mistake. Remember as soon as you crank off a round at an intruder you have just screwed the pooch. Even if the guy is a pure wacko with a knife clamped in his teeth and needs kill'n his family is going to sue the pants off of you. You have a chance if you shoot him at close range while he's coming at you. If, however; you shoot him in the back as he's running away, you will likely lose everything you have ever earned or will earn, and you might end up in a not so nice room with bars for windows and lousy neighbors.

Only shoot if the perp is a real and present danger to your, or your family's health. Even then the aftermath of the event may not be all that nice.

Remember if the guy is going away, LET HIM GO! Also just cranking the round into the chamber will likely be enough to start him heading toward the door.

If, on the other hand; he keeps coming at you, I'm with you. I'm going to shoot to kill. I'll worry about cleaning up the blood stains later.

BTW: when you use a gun in your defense you have just used "deadly force". That carries some pretty stringent penalties. It doesn't really make much difference to you whether or not you actually kill the bad guy, so my cop friend tells me, "Shoot for center mass; don't mess with the knee caps."
 
you will likely lose everything you have ever earned or will earn, and you might end up in a not so nice room with bars for windows and lousy neighbors.
Click to expand...

But they have a built-in dating service
 
You might want to look at the Baschieri & Pellagri "baby magnum" round.

It's loaded with 1.5 oz. of Italian '0' shot at a bit under 1300fps. '0' Italian works out to a .154" diameter... a little larger than #2 shot.
It's kinda like the discontinued, #2 shot, Federal "personal defense" loading... but with a few hundred fps more muzzle velocity.
Penetration with the Federal load was (arguably) around 6.5-9 inches in geletin, so this should be a bit better... and with the "Gordon System" casing, recoil is reduced somewhat. (You can read all about it on the B&P site)

Right now, you can order it direct from Baschieri & Pellagri USA (AKA Kaltron-Pettibone)... around $82 a case of 250 with free shipping.

C
 
Re the shotgun in the truck, that hit the victim after going thru two pieces of shaped 22 guage steel or more. It still nearly killed him, I am willing to bet a lot of the shot was deformed and deflected by the the door post. think about that same wound without the two layers of steel?
Click to expand...
And that is pretty much the point I've been trying to make, it passed through a steel auto body, and severely injured and disfigured him.

There is no appreciable gain to safety using birdshot. I'm sure it works just fine for defense, but it's not any less lethal after passing through barriers. All the anecdotal evidence posted in this thread and the other one advocating birdshot cite examples of it penetrating apartment-type barriers with ease. So what's the advantage here? If the shot is in the wad at short ranges and will make a great big hole in the BG... now you're firing something analogous to a slug into your neighbors' apartment :eek:

I'm sticking to my 3.5" 00B, I simply cannot accept the arguments made in favor of selecting birdshot. There's no reason NOT to use it if it's what you have on hand, but given a choice personally I select the biggest, heaviest, meanest bastard loads I can get. I've been in an attempted home invasion and shooting, I'm not taking chances.
 
Estate cartridge high velocity #6 shot... more power but still light bird shot... its what I use and I live in an apartment... either that or just 6 shot... a turkey load would work as well...
 
I found some Winchester 12 gauge 2 3/4" #6 rabbit and squirrel load in my Dad's gun cabinet. According to the panels on the box, these look to be a bit heavier than #6 birdshot.

Am I correct in my belief that these would be more effective than birdshot, but certainly not have the wall penetration capability of #4 buckshot?

Please advise, and thanks for the great discussion.
 
Birdshot and buckshot are two different things cptnjm.

#6 birdshot is not 2 numbers away from #4 buckshot. #4 buck is over twice the diameter of #6 birdshot.

Borrowing from some easy to grab Wikipidia charts...

Buckshot

  • 0000 ("quadruple-ought") .38" (9.7 mm)
  • 000 ("triple-ought") .36" (9.1 mm)
  • 00 ("double-ought") .33" (8.4 mm)
  • 0 ("ought") .32" (8.1 mm)
  • 1 .30" (7.6 mm)
  • 2 .27" (6.9 mm)
  • 3 .25" (6.4 mm)
  • 4 .24" (6 mm)
Birdshot

  • BBB .190" (4.83 mm)
  • BB .180" (4.57 mm)
  • B .170" (4.32 mm)
  • 1 .160" (4.06 mm)
  • 2 .150" (3.81 mm)
  • 3 .140" (3.56 mm)
  • 4 .130" (3.30 mm)
  • 5 .120" (3.05 mm)
  • 6 .110" (2.79 mm)
  • 7½ .095" (2.41 mm)
  • 8 .090" (2.29 mm)
  • 8½ .085" (2.15 mm)
  • 9 .080" (2.03 mm)
 
One Shot is not for Every Application!!

One shot size is not for every situation. Sometimes you shoot 7 1/2 or 8s and sometimes you shoot 4's or 6's for birds. Same thing can be said for self defense situations. In a rural area with lots of room between houses and the distinct possibility that you might need longer shots, buckshot is probably the best self defense choice. However, in a dense urban setting you are liable for every pellet from every shell you fire. Hit a bystander, go to jail for a long time or get sued by that person. If I was living in an apartment, I would use standard handgun rounds like .38, 9mm, .40 or .45 with hollow points or birdshot from a shotgun. At contact distances birdshot will penetrate a 2X4 no problem. It will break ribs and shred internal organs without over penetration. There is nothing "wrong" with "choosing" birdshot for self defense if you understand the correct application of that load in a defense situation. Most likely just having a gun will disuade some stupid @!$#! from trying to harm you. More important than load chosen is being familiar with your gun so you can use it confidently under stress without it becoming a liability to you! Practice by shooting skeet or trap at a fairly rapid pace where you are loading the magazine, cycling the action, engaging/disengating the safety, slide release/bolt release and feel completely comfortable with whatever gun or guns you choose even if you were completely in the dark and had to handle your weapon(s) by feel. The worse thing you can do is to have a gun, but fumble with it during a self defense situation and have it turned on you. During a burglary, your guns left available will be made ready for your return. This happend to my parents who returned to find my dad's shotgun laying across the bed! Some other guns were stolen because he was careless with storage. Each of us has to decide what's best for our particular situation. Asking for advice from some strangers on the net telling us what's best for them tells me you are not fully proficient with your weapon yet!
 
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