Best Rifle for Stopping a Charging Grizzly Bear?? -- Photo
- Thread starter LanceOregon
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I lived,hunted and guided in B.C. for several years. My Grizzlty gun, if I was hunting, was a Sako in 375H&H. Brutal but effective. For guiding backup I carried a Rem M660 in 350RM loaded hot. It was for ease of carry and movement.
By the way, Grizzleys cannot usually climb trees due to their claw configuration. The Griz might just knock the tree over if it is not substantial.
Blacks can scoot right up faster than the 'lineman for the county'! And both can outrun you easily ... before you can even turn around.
I hear pepper spray is pretty good. Think I'd afix it to the business end of 350/375!
By the way, Grizzleys cannot usually climb trees due to their claw configuration. The Griz might just knock the tree over if it is not substantial.
Blacks can scoot right up faster than the 'lineman for the county'! And both can outrun you easily ... before you can even turn around.I hear pepper spray is pretty good. Think I'd afix it to the business end of 350/375!
on the "bear bomb" topic...
I actually have experience with this, but not in the bacon wrapped variety. Backpacking in the Wind River range of Wyoming ~10 years ago we had our food hung off the side of a 60' cliff where we were camping and saw from across the valley a black bear in our camp on top of the cliff. By the time we made it to the camp, the bear was gone. The food hung over the cliff was untouched, but the bear spray we'd left in a crack in the rock had been bitten into spraying orange pepper spray all over. Two canine punctures in the can indicated pretty clearly that the bear got a direct shot.
That habituated bear was back in our camp the next day. It never got any food from us and we chased it away several times with noise and rocks. I heard a year later that a problem bear had been put down in that same drainage by rangers.
I actually have experience with this, but not in the bacon wrapped variety. Backpacking in the Wind River range of Wyoming ~10 years ago we had our food hung off the side of a 60' cliff where we were camping and saw from across the valley a black bear in our camp on top of the cliff. By the time we made it to the camp, the bear was gone. The food hung over the cliff was untouched, but the bear spray we'd left in a crack in the rock had been bitten into spraying orange pepper spray all over. Two canine punctures in the can indicated pretty clearly that the bear got a direct shot.
That habituated bear was back in our camp the next day. It never got any food from us and we chased it away several times with noise and rocks. I heard a year later that a problem bear had been put down in that same drainage by rangers.
This is a very common topic. With a charging grizzly, you will be quite lucky to get off two shots. Those shots will need to count with shot placement the most important factor. I have seen reports that the largest brown bear killed died at the hands of someone holding a .22 rifle.
Secondly, small caliber rifles are not what you want. Many list 3000 foot/pounds of muzzle energy as the minimum. This places the 30-06 just at the minimum level as well as the large bore .444. I have a medical condition with my left arm that limits the amount of recoil I can handle and that is why I went with the .444 with extra weight. It shoots like a 20 ga at 9 pounds total weight. Buffalo Bore has a 335 gr bullet that will get their attention with the proper placement. That is the most important factor.
The only way to drop a charging grizzly is with a CNS hit, but that is a very tiny target moving up and down. My father shot a black bear up in Alaska while sheep hunting looking down the side of a hill. He hit is with one shot between its shoulders and that was the end. A heart/lung shot will kill the bear but it may not stop it immediately. The other option is a shoulder hit that disables the bear. All of these are very difficult emergency placements to hit with a moving bear that can cover 40 yards in two seconds. Shot placement and deep penetration are the only combinations that will work for an instant drop. I hope I never have to put that to practice, avoidance is still the best policy.
Secondly, small caliber rifles are not what you want. Many list 3000 foot/pounds of muzzle energy as the minimum. This places the 30-06 just at the minimum level as well as the large bore .444. I have a medical condition with my left arm that limits the amount of recoil I can handle and that is why I went with the .444 with extra weight. It shoots like a 20 ga at 9 pounds total weight. Buffalo Bore has a 335 gr bullet that will get their attention with the proper placement. That is the most important factor.
The only way to drop a charging grizzly is with a CNS hit, but that is a very tiny target moving up and down. My father shot a black bear up in Alaska while sheep hunting looking down the side of a hill. He hit is with one shot between its shoulders and that was the end. A heart/lung shot will kill the bear but it may not stop it immediately. The other option is a shoulder hit that disables the bear. All of these are very difficult emergency placements to hit with a moving bear that can cover 40 yards in two seconds. Shot placement and deep penetration are the only combinations that will work for an instant drop. I hope I never have to put that to practice, avoidance is still the best policy.
12 ga with slugs is a very popular answer to the issue, certainly better than any handgun, but if you look at the ballistics, it is below .308 in muzzle energy and far below the 3000 ft-pd mark many use as the minimum.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm
My little Marlin .444 with the extra weight and recoil of a 20 ga puts out substantially more muzzle energy than a 12 ga slugs but it carries with it the recoil of a .375 H&H magnum. Getting to be the old man that I am over 50, I don't like any more aches and pains than I already have especially when I can exceed the 12 ga in delivered power with the kick of only a 20 ga.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=156
12 gauge Magnum shells are even worse. A 2 3/4 inch Magnum shell throwing 1 1/2 ounces of shot at 1260 fps from a 7.5 pound shotgun belts the shooter with 45.9 ft. lbs. of recoil, somewhat more than the recoil of a typical .375 H&H Magnum rifle shooting 300 grain factory loads! And the 3 inch Magnum 12 gauge shell firing 1 7/8 ounces of shot at a MV of 1210 fps in that same 7.5 pound shotgun slams the shooter with over 60 ft. lbs. of recoil energy. This is equivalent to the recoil of a .378 Weatherby Magnum rifle, and exceeds the recoil of a typical .458 Winchester Magnum rifle. This is literally recoil in the elephant gun class, and most shooters would be well advised to avoid such loads.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/12gauge.htm
Once again, 12 ga beats any handgun hands down that any ordinary human could shoot, but it actually is not as good as some believe especially when we look at the recoil factor as well.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm
My little Marlin .444 with the extra weight and recoil of a 20 ga puts out substantially more muzzle energy than a 12 ga slugs but it carries with it the recoil of a .375 H&H magnum. Getting to be the old man that I am over 50, I don't like any more aches and pains than I already have especially when I can exceed the 12 ga in delivered power with the kick of only a 20 ga.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=156
12 gauge Magnum shells are even worse. A 2 3/4 inch Magnum shell throwing 1 1/2 ounces of shot at 1260 fps from a 7.5 pound shotgun belts the shooter with 45.9 ft. lbs. of recoil, somewhat more than the recoil of a typical .375 H&H Magnum rifle shooting 300 grain factory loads! And the 3 inch Magnum 12 gauge shell firing 1 7/8 ounces of shot at a MV of 1210 fps in that same 7.5 pound shotgun slams the shooter with over 60 ft. lbs. of recoil energy. This is equivalent to the recoil of a .378 Weatherby Magnum rifle, and exceeds the recoil of a typical .458 Winchester Magnum rifle. This is literally recoil in the elephant gun class, and most shooters would be well advised to avoid such loads.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/12gauge.htm
Once again, 12 ga beats any handgun hands down that any ordinary human could shoot, but it actually is not as good as some believe especially when we look at the recoil factor as well.
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James Gary Shelton, author and bear defense expert recommends both modalities of pepper spray and a defensive firearm in grizzly country. He strongly discourages using the "playing dead" routine as an acceptable survival technique unless you have no other option with a grizzly. He advises to plan ahead with both modalities. He does favour high powered rifles over pepper spray in effectiveness.
http://www.amazon.com/Bear-Attacks-James-Gary-Shelton/dp/0969809913
Two 12 gauges is a pretty safe bet. When I go hiking or camping, at least two people are equipped to fire slugs. Sometimes a mosin, AR, or AK tags along too. Unless an army of bears arises you're pretty safe.
The answer isn't a single gun its strategy. I don't think there's never been a case where a group of four or more have been mauled by a bear in the history of Alaska. I've heard they have trouble discriminating between individuals in a group, perceiving it has one big, threatening entity.
If a bear does attack one person, its occupied and can be dispatched. I've heard mixed results with the spray. Doesn't do well in rain, doesn't work well if its there's wind, some bears have more of a tolerance for it. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but its worth trying.
The answer isn't a single gun its strategy. I don't think there's never been a case where a group of four or more have been mauled by a bear in the history of Alaska. I've heard they have trouble discriminating between individuals in a group, perceiving it has one big, threatening entity.
If a bear does attack one person, its occupied and can be dispatched. I've heard mixed results with the spray. Doesn't do well in rain, doesn't work well if its there's wind, some bears have more of a tolerance for it. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but its worth trying.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
This would be true if you were stuck in the world of 12ga slugs from 50 years ago. Take a look at the Remington Core-Lokt Ultra. 385gr, actual bullet instead of chunk of lead, doing 1900fps. That's 3086 ft/lbs. More importantly, penetration matters in stopping a big dangerous animal and penetration is influenced far more by momentum than by KE. The 12ga slug carries nearly 20% more momentum than does the .444 Marlin (Hornady factory ammo), and the 12ga has a Taylor KO of 56 versus the 39 for the 444.
Don't laugh......this stuff is very effective and a lot of guides carry it.
http://counterassault.com/html/beardeterrent.html
http://counterassault.com/html/beardeterrent.html
Dear peetzakilla, thank you for the information on the Remington Core-Lokt which does get you to the 3000 ft/lbs threshold, but at what cost in recoil? That was really the point of what I was talking about. In addition, most slugs do not get you to this threshold as well but at really huge recoil. 12 ga is much better than any ordinary handgun, but for the type of recoil generated, there are many other high powered rifles that will get you Taylor values double of the Remington slug you mentioned.
For myself, I went with the lowest recoil and the highest punch. Getting a Taylor KO over 40 with the Buffalo Bore 335 gr and only hitting me back like my 20 ga or there abouts is a great weopon to have over my shoulder. Are there better bear guns? Of course, but nothing I would want going off on my shoulder. For the type of recoil in your 12 ga, you can literally get an elephant gun with double or triple your 12 ga. I don't like that type of recoil any more.
My first gun that I ever bought at about age 16 if I remember correctly was a single shot 12 ga. I forgot the first principle of recoil in that sucker, weight. I had shot my older brothers 12 ga and it didn't bother me at all, but that little light weight gun really took my shoulder off. It never stopped me from shooting it as a kid, but I ain't no kid any longer. For me today, it is how can I get the level of recoil with the highest knock out power from the other end. For me, my choice is the Marlin .444 with extra weight and some great recoil pads. That is optimal for me, but everyone has different requirements and abilities.
I would be interested in your impression of shooting that 12 ga slug as compared to the .375 H&H if you have ever shot that. The .375 will get you much more than any 12 ga in Taylor KO values and at the same recoil. If I was willing to put up with the type of recoil you are playing with, I would just go with the .375 in the first place. That was the issue I was discussing, recoil vs muzzle energy ratios. In this analysis, the 12 ga will put a bear down, but not as easily as the .375 for the same recoil.
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kodiakbeer
Moderator
Brushing aside all the bear paranoia, let me point out a couple of things from the standpoint of somebody who lives in the most densely populated grizzly habitat on the planet - 1 per square mile. I've dealt with bears for over 20 years. I've been badly mauled. I see hundreds of them every year, often from very close range. Follow the earlier link to youtube see my pix of grizzlies from as close as 15 yards.
Actual bear attacks (or at least, grizzly attacks), come from extreme close range, almost always from 20 yards or less. They stalk in close or lay in wait and then dash in at 40 mph - not a typo - 40 mph. It's almost always in thick brush which in Alaska, usually means alders.
The last thing you want in that situation is a 24 inch barreled .375/.338 (whatever) with high end optics. Even if you manage to thread that long rifle through the brush and get it leveled, you're still blind because of the optics.
You want a short barreled shotgun or a carbine in 45/70 class (.444) with iron sights - preferably a big glowing fire-dot/aperture arrangement. You want to shoot the bear on the tip of the nose. The brain is behind the nose. If you shoot into the "forehead" of a grizzly, you just wasted your shot because there's no brain behind there.
Slugs or 00 buck? I think slugs are preferable, but I use 00 buck because my shorty double 12 shoots to point of aim with buck, but high with slugs. At the ranges we're talking about (and I've tested it), that 00 is hitting as a solid mass. I don't want to worry about holding low in the 1 or 2 seconds I may have to get a shot off. If I hit him in the face, he's going down while if I miss with a slug, I'm going down. I could buy another shotgun, but nothing is as short and handy as the one I've got.
Handguns? Unless you're Jerry Miculek, don't bother. If you can't draw and hit a softball (a bears brain size) bounced at you from 20 yards away when you aren't expecting it, then a handgun is a poor choice.
Lastly, and again, the bear that you see - the one that growls and chuffs and runs at you ears up, doesn't need to be shot. Give him a chance - stand your ground until he stops, then edge away. If there are two of you, zap him with pepper while the other guy covers with an appropriate firearm.
They're going allow firearms in the National Parks this year, and the last thing we need is a bunch of people peppering the bears with carry guns.
Actual bear attacks (or at least, grizzly attacks), come from extreme close range, almost always from 20 yards or less. They stalk in close or lay in wait and then dash in at 40 mph - not a typo - 40 mph. It's almost always in thick brush which in Alaska, usually means alders.
The last thing you want in that situation is a 24 inch barreled .375/.338 (whatever) with high end optics. Even if you manage to thread that long rifle through the brush and get it leveled, you're still blind because of the optics.
You want a short barreled shotgun or a carbine in 45/70 class (.444) with iron sights - preferably a big glowing fire-dot/aperture arrangement. You want to shoot the bear on the tip of the nose. The brain is behind the nose. If you shoot into the "forehead" of a grizzly, you just wasted your shot because there's no brain behind there.
Slugs or 00 buck? I think slugs are preferable, but I use 00 buck because my shorty double 12 shoots to point of aim with buck, but high with slugs. At the ranges we're talking about (and I've tested it), that 00 is hitting as a solid mass. I don't want to worry about holding low in the 1 or 2 seconds I may have to get a shot off. If I hit him in the face, he's going down while if I miss with a slug, I'm going down. I could buy another shotgun, but nothing is as short and handy as the one I've got.
Handguns? Unless you're Jerry Miculek, don't bother. If you can't draw and hit a softball (a bears brain size) bounced at you from 20 yards away when you aren't expecting it, then a handgun is a poor choice.
Lastly, and again, the bear that you see - the one that growls and chuffs and runs at you ears up, doesn't need to be shot. Give him a chance - stand your ground until he stops, then edge away. If there are two of you, zap him with pepper while the other guy covers with an appropriate firearm.
They're going allow firearms in the National Parks this year, and the last thing we need is a bunch of people peppering the bears with carry guns.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Well...
For an 8.5lb gun, the 12ga would have a recoil impulse of 3.69lb/s vs 3.62 for the 444 and a recoil force of 25.78 ft/lbs vs 24.83 for the 444. In other words, the 444 generates about 97-99% of the recoil of the 12ga.
So, in terms of KO versus recoil, the 12ga wins easily, and the 444 has little to no recoil advantage.
You never shot my modified Marlin .444. Not sure that we are really communicating well here. I don't have a standard .444. It weighs over 9 pounds, and has a Limbsaver on the stock and a Kick Killer cover over that for nearly an inch of shock absorbing rubber on my shoulder. My perception is that it is like shooting my 20 ga. I no longer own any 12 ga to compare it to directly. Once again, I have a medical condition in my left arm that I must take into account to avoid complications from shooting high powered rifles.
My fix was a whole bunch of weight and a whole bunch of rubber on the other end. The result was better than I had hoped for to the point I wouldn't mind shooting a hundred rounds through this little puppy. How many people can say that about their .444? Most people that I have talked to use one word to describe their .444: Its a real thumper. My calculations are that it is around 16-18 ft/lbs of felt recoil but it is unlikely that I will ever measure that out.
(The rifle was 7.5 pounds new and I added 1.5 pounds with melted lead which should give me 20% reduction per Chuck Hawks calculations. Limbsaver and Kick Killer claim 30 -40% felt recoil reduction. If all estimates are true, that would put me down in the 16-18 ft/lbs range. Shooting it feels like a regular 20 ga bird shot. Truly an easy gun to shoot with double the power of a .454 Cassul. I find that quite remarkable. I don't think I would like shooting your 12 ga loaded with your Remington slug very much at all.)
kodiakbeer
Moderator
That .444 is a lot more versatile than a slug gun since you can reach out a lot further for hunting. You always have to think of dual-purpose in Alaska - something effective for hunting, that's also a bear stopper.
I hunt with a .350 Rem Mag in a model 7 short action carbine for that reason. Those big .250 grain slugs are overkill on the blacktails I'm usually hunting, but I can still reach out to 200 yards. And it's a good bear stopper - dual purpose. Moose? No problem...
The .350 Rem Mag and the Model 600 carbine was actually designed with bear guides in mind. It's making a comeback of sorts - Remington is again offering it in their Model 673 "Guide Gun". I think it's about the best all-around cartridge for Alaskan hunting.
I hunt with a .350 Rem Mag in a model 7 short action carbine for that reason. Those big .250 grain slugs are overkill on the blacktails I'm usually hunting, but I can still reach out to 200 yards. And it's a good bear stopper - dual purpose. Moose? No problem...
The .350 Rem Mag and the Model 600 carbine was actually designed with bear guides in mind. It's making a comeback of sorts - Remington is again offering it in their Model 673 "Guide Gun". I think it's about the best all-around cartridge for Alaskan hunting.
In yellowstone, my father was attacked by a grizzly that he spooked. It's really an open question as to what really happened. He was crossing the river, and spooked the bear on the sand bar that he was going to. The bear charged, and he ran for the water. when he reached the water, he went down, and the bear wrestled with him underwater before going back to cover. His waders and clothes were damaged.
While waiting for backup, a ranger armed with a handgun checked on the bear's location. it crossed the water and charged him as well, and he shot and killed it with what he had, the .357.
There is no absolute certainty as to what that bear was thinking. I've wondered for decades now if it was just bluffing, or out for blood. It doesn't matter, because they would have killed it anyway, after being involved in an attack.
The fact is, they neither one of them did the right thing. Dad snuck up on the trout and surprised the bear. The ranger snuck up on the bear, like he was trying to take a picture of a deer. the bear was trapped, angry, and spooked.
In bush, or tighter cover, there's no way either of them would have survived that attack unhurt, there would have been no escape, nor room to fire those 6 disabling rounds.
Regarding a batch of bird shot, I can't imagine that working. I've patterned bird shot, and there is likely to be good chance of missing the eyes. I've used skeet loads on dragon flies, just for fun, and if I can't pop a 4" dragon fly at 30 feet I'm sure as hell not going to hit the eyes of a charging bear. Being as bears have been known to tear open bee hives, I doubt that a load of #7s will chase them back. Failing to blind it, I'm really not sure what good it will do to fire bird shot at something that is big enough to stomp the crap out of other grizzlies for breeding rights. Even right on skin contact will not give the sort of damaging penetration that you need to stop it's heart before it swallows your head.
Not that I really care too much what a person uses in pursuit of his own safety, that is his choice, but this is the one thing suggested so far that seems to have absolutely no merit at all, and I'd hate to think that someone walks away from here believing that a montana pheasant hunter is safe from grizzly because of his shotgun full of #4 or 6.
While waiting for backup, a ranger armed with a handgun checked on the bear's location. it crossed the water and charged him as well, and he shot and killed it with what he had, the .357.
There is no absolute certainty as to what that bear was thinking. I've wondered for decades now if it was just bluffing, or out for blood. It doesn't matter, because they would have killed it anyway, after being involved in an attack.
The fact is, they neither one of them did the right thing. Dad snuck up on the trout and surprised the bear. The ranger snuck up on the bear, like he was trying to take a picture of a deer. the bear was trapped, angry, and spooked.
In bush, or tighter cover, there's no way either of them would have survived that attack unhurt, there would have been no escape, nor room to fire those 6 disabling rounds.
Regarding a batch of bird shot, I can't imagine that working. I've patterned bird shot, and there is likely to be good chance of missing the eyes. I've used skeet loads on dragon flies, just for fun, and if I can't pop a 4" dragon fly at 30 feet I'm sure as hell not going to hit the eyes of a charging bear. Being as bears have been known to tear open bee hives, I doubt that a load of #7s will chase them back. Failing to blind it, I'm really not sure what good it will do to fire bird shot at something that is big enough to stomp the crap out of other grizzlies for breeding rights. Even right on skin contact will not give the sort of damaging penetration that you need to stop it's heart before it swallows your head.
Not that I really care too much what a person uses in pursuit of his own safety, that is his choice, but this is the one thing suggested so far that seems to have absolutely no merit at all, and I'd hate to think that someone walks away from here believing that a montana pheasant hunter is safe from grizzly because of his shotgun full of #4 or 6.
kodiakbeer
Moderator
You'd have to call that an actual attack, even though it was precipitated by sneaking up on the bear and surprising it. I'd bet a lot that there was a dead deer/elk washed up near there, or that the bear was injured in some way and didn't want to leave that cover.
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