Beretta Barrels Unsupported ala Glock?

[Shake]

WR, This is really starting to crack me up . I'm checking out after this post.

It passed with flying colors in the early part of this century and it was retested int the 1970's and then later in the 1980's by the U.S. military when they were setting the standards by which the new replacement pistol whould have to measure up to if it was to replace the venerable 1911.

I guess what you are trying to tell us is that the army got real stupid real fast?

Anyone who is mechanically inclined at all can see that the 1911 is easily stripped to the bare frame in the field while the Bertta is not.

Oh yeah, and YOU are more mechanically inclined than the armys engineers anweapons specialists. Let no one mistake that. By the way, shall we call you Doctor?

Beretta's blowing up with disintegrating frames has been well documented in both the military and in law suits in the civilian world. Wether this is do to a weakness in design or improper ammo or a combination of the two (high probability) is open to argument.

You keep spouting about documentation, but just like most others on the web you can't produce it. Give us hard numbers and references and maybe someone will give a little more creedance to your assertions. The truth is that this didn't happen very much at all (this has been well DOCUMENTED by Broken Arrow who posts here as well).

Do you really think that Beretta would have invested all this time and money in the development of their new heavier frame

What new heavier frame?

Anyone who doesn't understand that virtually every handgun on the market goes through some design changes after being introduced has blinders on.

Some of you people really amaze me on how you try and defend vastly inferior weapons. Just because I happen to like a particluar weapon say like the Sig P210 I would not try to claim it should be adopted by the police or world military. I do not let my personal likes cloud my judgment as to the merits of any particular weapon.

No one is defending "vastly" inferior weapons. You are claiming that virtually every weapon on the market (except of course your sacred list) is inferior.

Tell us again (or better yet quote to us) where anyone in this thread has claimed a particular weapon should be adopted by the military or the police. I missed that part.

WR, you have a problem. The problem is you are right and everyone else here is wrong, regardless of the issue. No one here, me included, has claimed that the Beretta or any other weapon is better than the 1911 or the Hi Power. In fact, most who have argued would probably agree that those two designs are hard to beat. The difference between you and most others here is that most are open minded enough to recognize the merits of many different types of firearms.

Your statements are contradictory to themselves, authoritative documentation (reloading manuals), and the experiences of MANY other experienced shooters. To top it all off, you are arrogant.

I'll continue to shoot my new wave pistols of inferior design, in .40 S&W mind you, and I'll enjoy every minute of it.

By the way wolf 1415, you are correct, the answer is NO. Even WR for all his blustering mentioned only ONE (1) problem with the Beretta that he had witnessed. Blast away!


Shake

 

[Wild Romanian]

Recoil goes up accuracy goes down-nonsense! This is entirely dependant upon the shooter. While recoil may have the effect of inducing fatigue sooner, recoil does, in and of itself, not affect accuracy

It seems you have little long term experience or have engaged in very little experimentation in regards to the effects of increase recoil and accuracy.

It has been know for decades that High Power rifles shoot better more often with a reduced load of say 1 to 3 grains of poweder than they do with full power hell bent for leather loads. This has been proven in actual machine rest groups which totally eliminated the recoil fatigue factory.

Way back in the 1960's we ran ransom rest tests on hopped up .45 acp loads using light weight bullets of our own design. We found over and over again that light target loads grouped well with a variety of powders but when the same bullet was fired with hopped up loads accuracy deteriorated. We did find accurate hot loads but it involved a lot of time and experimentation compared to just dumping in a light powder charge of whatever powder we had available and immediataly getting good groups and with some powders fantastic groups.

No , once again History has proved you very wrong on this one. W.R.

 

[Wild Romanian]

. The difference between you and most others here is that most are open minded enough to recognize the merits of many different types of firearms

Merits, what merits. Besides the lighter weight of say cheap plastic or aluminum what other merits are there amoung the junk new wave pistols that are being manufactured today? I have been searching for these elusive merits ever since some of these new wave frankensteins have been unleashed upon us. W.R.

 

[Wild Romanian]

You keep spouting about documentation, but just like most others on the web you can't produce it. Give us hard numbers and references and maybe someone will give a little more creedance to your assertions. The truth is that this didn't happen very much at all (this has been well DOCUMENTED by Broken Arrow who posts here as well

Try reading books , magazines, periodicals and especially newspapers. Have you ever picked up a newspaper, you might be suprised by the amount of information in them about the U.S. Military.

The problem with most people these days is the only reading they do is on the internet. I am not codemning the internet but making statements like that shows me that you read very little about what is going on in the gun world or what has been going on in the U.S, Military in regards to the problems of the Beretta handgun. What I posted is common knoledge to anyone who is well read in regards to the U.S. Military or in regards to the Beretta handgun.

I have posted doumentation in the past and found it was still a waste of time because people like yourself refuse to believe it if it conflicts with their already well entrenched views.

I have at home about a 10 page court case involving a lawsuit against Beretta because a blow up that put out the eye of the shooter. I imagine that you would come up with an explantation that it was a fake even after you read it.W.R.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

If you have a court case documentation, please post the state, county, and docket number for our review.

Thanks

 

[CastleBravo]

Ah, but you all forget that on the planet WR is from anecdotes he reads on the internet ARE evidence!



But buck up, evidence mongers! Those of us who believe in verifiable tests as opposed to internet anecdotes and irrational babbling about "junk" plastic and alloy-framed guns have a thing or two up our sleves...

"Glocks have gone through some of the most strenuous tests and still kept ticking afterwards. One of the more recent thorough tests was performed by the FBI, which was very well documented in the 1998 Autopistol magazine (Harris Publications) and the 19 98 Glock Annual magazine. Believe me, if there was an out-of-battery problem and/or Glock design flaw during the 120,000 round torture test, the FBI would not have declared the Glock models 22 & 23 the overwhelming winners. As a result, the G22 and G23 are now authorized to be issued to FBI agents. This information is just a little teeny weenie bit more *substantial* than the urban myths that continue to be propagated from misinformed people who "spout off" about Glocks without anything to *really* back up their interpretations."

http://glock.missouri.edu/glock/kbfaqp.shtml

And, of course, the FBI's torture testing of the Glock 22 and 23 models is part of the PUBLIC RECORD so you can verify it WITHOUT having to believe all those "Glock lovin' " publications. But Hell, at least there are ANY specific publications being referenced here instead of some sh!t somebody supposedy read in SOME gunrag SOMEWHERE... All of the test pistols passed the 10,000 round test so they upped the ante to 20,000 rounds each, which all but 1 passed due to a small part wearing out around the 17,000 round mark.

So much for .40S&W explosions, the vices of "junk" plastic pistols and "unsupported" chambers, etc., etc.

 

[Wild Romanian]

Glocks have gone through some of the most strenuous tests and still kept ticking afterwards. One of the more recent thorough tests was performed by the FBI, which was very well documented in the 1998 Autopistol magazine (Harris Publications) and the 19 98 Glock Annual magazine. Believe me, if there was an out-of-battery problem and/or Glock design flaw during the 120,000 round torture test, the FBI would not have declared the Glock models 22 & 23 the overwhelming winners.

I think that you really miss the whole point on Classic pistols V/S new wave pistols. Other pistols too have also proved to be extremely durable in torture tests.

Other things besides endurance also play a major role in why the FBI or anyone else chooses a weapon. And after they due they find out many times that the weapon when put into actual field use does not live up to its expectations.

HOW MANY TIMES IN THE PAST HAS THE FBI DECLARED THEY JUST PURCHASED THE ULTIMATE WEAPON ONLY LATER TO ABANDON IT FOR SOMETHING ELSE.

I think the whole point here is that the new wave pistols just do not measure up in the overall picture to the classic guns when everthing is taken into consideration. Sure the police may be happy with a gun that has a crummy trigger and non durable plastic sights etc. etc. because they armorers have a complete warehouse full of parts to constantly fix or update these weapons.

History has proven the Glock is not perfect by any means. I will not go into the design changes of this weapon but I personally got tired of sending my glocks back to the factory because they either did not work or I was receiving notices in the mail about updates to the weapon. This is from personal experience.

Contrast this to the civilian shooter who if he is smart sticks to a classic well proven design that is not constantly being updated because it has been proven to be either unsafe or unreliable or falls short of the advantages of a well proven classic design.

It you really believe that the militaries or police departments always choose the best weapon then the civilian shooters who use guns in competition would constantly be throwing out their old obsolete weapons for the lastest high tech advantage on the target range.

Not so. The new wave pistols have constantly shown that they have been largely adopted by the police and military because the manufacture can deliver a weapon that is built faster and cheaper not better. W.R

.From your above statement about durability:

Are you not aware that the pistols often supplied for these propaganda extravagancies are often hand built and blue printed to insure that there is much less chance of parts breakage and malfunction than from a standard production line pistol. This is nothing new or secret.

The real test of a pistol is of course time. The truth all comes out eventually and the classics have withstood the test of time. So far the new wave pistols are having a pretty tough time of it.

You also quote from Glock magazine. Who do you think finances this magazine? W.R.

 

[Wild Romanian]

Peter M. Eick
Senior Member

Registered: 08-04-1999
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 466
If you have a court case documentation, please post the state, county, and docket number for our review.

Thanks




OK SHAKE YOU WANT DOCUMENTATION. HERE IT IS.

Endresen v Beretta USA Corporation

Civil no. 960159

560 N.W. 2d 225 Filed 3/5/97 by Clerk of Supremem Court

IN THE SUPREMEM COURT

STATE OF NORTH DAKOTA

1997 ND 38


Darren Endresen, Plaintiff and Appellee
v
Scheels Hardware and Sports Shop, Inc. Defendant
Beretta USA Corp., Defendand and Appellant
and
Accuracy, Inc. d/b/a/ Ultramax Ammunition, Defendant

Accuracy, Inc. d/b/a/ Ultramax Ammunition, Third-Party Plaintiff
v.
Winchester-Western Division, Olin Corporation, Third-Party Defendant

Civil no. 960159

Hey shake , after you read this maybe you will be selling your Beretta very soon. W.R.

Beretta USA Corporation (Beretta) appeals from a judgement awarding Darren Enderesen $259,079.21 in damages, costs and disbursements in this personal injury products liablility action.

 

[Wild Romanian]

Anyone who doesn't understand that virtually every handgun on the market goes through some design changes after being introduced has blinders on.

You must really be very naive to make such a statement.

Factories redesign handguns for a variety of reasons.

1. Premature parts breakage.

2. Sudden catastrophic failure (Beretta slides) resulting in injury to the shooter.

3. Competitiors products that have a real or imagined advantage over thiers. (The ridiculous hooked trigger guards on new wave pistols as an example of an imaginary advantage).

4. Weapon life expectancy.

5. Safety features.


I could go on but you get the picture. They redesign them because of deficiencies not because of natural evolution as you have previously eluded to. W.R.

 

[.357SIG]

Is it really necessary to make a new post for every single question, WR?


-----

Actually, it probably is necessary. Nevermind...forgot about the limit on characters in a post. Carry on!

 

[Wild Romanian]

CastleBravo

CastleBravo
Senior Member

Registered: 12-11-1999
Location:
Posts: 414
Ah, but you all forget that on the planet WR is from anecdotes he reads on the internet ARE evidence!

If you had been the least bit attentive you would have discovered that much of what i write comes from my personal experience and testing. At some point everyone must occasional quote from tests published by other people or report on other peoples experiences that I have personall witnessed. It seems that there is a lot more of the reporting that you have alluded to being stated by other members on this forum and with much more frequency.

You seem yourself to quote constantly from other sources but publish seldom from actual experience. W.R.

 

[plunker]

WHAT!!!

WR...I thought this was about the .40 cal. You like sigs that's great. I don't and I like my Beretta. Sig's are great guns, I don't like the way they fit my hand. I don't think anybody flamed your sig. Are all hand guns inferior to your sig??

I have always felt H&k, Sig, Beretta, KImber (I'm sorry if I missed some) are the quality guns out there. If you don't like one don't but it. But I don't think you can justify bad mouthing any of them. They are great companies putting out a very good product. They need all the support from us that they can get!

Sorry.. I'm usually more to the point. This is BS plunker

 

[tcurtis]

WR-

I can see when I'm wasting my time with someone who is totally close minded.

You say history has proved me very wrong about accuracy not being affected by recoil. Did you read my entire message? I did not say that hot loading or overloading a cartridge had no effect-I said recoil! I then gave the comparison of a .454 vs a .22. I said nothing about hopping a cartridge up. Either you aren't reading or don't understand what is being said.

I also notice that when confronted with verifiable facts you change the topic and ignore what has just been said. When proved wrong about the pressures you move on to gun quality, etc. This is the tactic of someone defending an undefendable position-try to confuse the issue.

You continue to cite facts that were "well documented" in the gun magazines, but then state that those same magazines are propaganda machines for the new wave of guns. You contradict yourself often.

Where did you get the information about Berettas having steel inserts put in their frames by the AMU? I would be extremely interested in reading about this. Your source (and please don't say that it is well known or has been widely publisized in the gun mags-a source that I can read for my self-like the sources of information proving your continued misleading "facts" wrong that I cited for you).

The broken .40 gun stories you quoted for me-broken extractor, broken ejector, etc. You must not have much range experience if you've only seen these <minor> problems in a few .40 pistols.

You say you won't quote sources basically because it is too much trouble. That is the claim of someone who has no sources to back himself up.

And on the matter of your disdain for the Beretta 9x series-I think it is great! From what you've said it's the worst thing to come down the pike in some time. Based on the rest of your writings, that must mean it's pretty good.

When people tell you of guns they think are good (and aren't on your "good" list) you tell them how foolish they are and make excuses as to why they are good guns (gun mag propaganda, etc); when people tell you of problems with the 1911 or Hi-Power, you make different excuses as to the cause.

I can't help but wonder if it were up to you would we still be shooting flintlocks?

Old time craftsmanship, beauty, grace, reliability, accuracy, etc. are things that I believe still draw many shooters to the 1911 (me included for that matter), the Hi-Power (in all it's forms), and the like (don't particularly like the Sig P210 but don't particularly dislike it either). They are all good guns and are not obsolete by a long shot. But, unlike you, most of us realize that just because it's not made all out of steel or have the name John Browning associated with it doesn't automatically make it bad either.

I believe the saying is (something to the effect of) if you tell a lie often enough it eventually becomes the truth. Unfortunately, that seems to be your strategy.

Tom C

 

[Peter M. Eick]

WR.

Thank you for the references. I will request a copy of the transcript ASAP.

 

[JT19]

WR
"Are you not aware that the pistols often supplied for these propaganda
extravagancies are often hand built and blue printed to insure that there is
much less chance of parts breakage and malfunction than from a standard
production line pistol. This is nothing new or secret. "


Man what are you smoking.
When you do a multi brand test you pick the guns
up from a distributor. You get to pick them out of a
huge pile of PRODUCTION GUNS.

 

[CastleBravo]

Oh, I see...

... Wild Romanian Makes Sh!t up = evidence!

Ah, it's all clear to me now.

Wow, for an expert you sure do get alot of facts flat-out WRONG (e.g. SAAMI max pressures for .40S&W...). If you ARE the source I think I'll look elsewhere.

 

[Wild Romanian]

Man what are you Man what are you smoking.
When you do a multi brand test you pick the guns
up from a distributor. You get to pick them out of a
huge pile of PRODUCTION GUNS.smoking.

You were not paying much attention to what was being discussed. The glock test that was given for the FBI was given by glock and the guns were supplied to the FBI from glock. W.R.

 

[Wild Romanian]

Man what are you smoking.

Man what are you smoking.
When you do a multi brand test you pick the guns
up from a distributor. You get to pick them out of a
huge pile of PRODUCTION GUNS.

First you people said that I was making up the story about berretta's blowing up. So I gave you a court case docket number to shut you up. Now Turtis does not believe that the U.S. Army did not build special beretta's. It seems as though since Turtis reads very little about what is going on in the shooting world he wants me to document everything I have ever read. Well I dont remember what magazine I read it in but maybe some of you out there can help me out. I reall do not have the time to go back and pore through every magazine I have read in the past year since Turtis reads almost nothing and believes in nothing that is printed anyway.

If you disbelieve me again then get on the phone and contact the army markmenship team or contact the people at the NRA. Of course it would not suprise me if You do not belong to the NRA .

I am sure some of you out there read the same story I did. If you remember the magazine please forward it to the douting Thomas Turtis so we can shut him up. W.R.

 

[Wild Romanian]

You say you won't quote sources basically because it is too much trouble. That is the claim of someone who has no sources to back himself up

Do you ever bother to read anything on this forum. I just gave you a court case document number because you did not believe me. W.R.

 

[Wild Romanian]

You say you won't quote sources basically because it is too much trouble. That is the claim of someone who has no sources to back himself up

I do not put sentimentality on firearems. I compare them point for point and if they do not measure up to the classics I list there faults one by one. Each and every one of them. If you do not like hearing the truth there is nothing I can do about it. Wishing that your favorit new wave hangun is the worlds best does not make it so.

Some of what I publish has been common knowledge for years among both gunsmiths and target shooters. It never ceases to amaze me when reading some of your comments. Especially when it comes to target accuracy in handguns. How in the world any of you out there can believe an aluminum frame hangun will hold its accuracy for the same duration as a steel one simply shows me that 1. You have never competed professionally in the game of bullseye shooting and 2. you really do not know the difference in the accuracy between a first class competition pistol and an out of the box blaster. W.R.