Bedding my Savage accu-stock

One of the things I've noticed while doing all this is the back screw bottoms out . Meaning once I hit 30lbs it stops turning and does not seem to get tighter . The front screw will turn just a little every 5 to 10lbs up to 60lbs or so .
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That's very interesting. The front of the receiver is actually floating above the bedding block, and it is being suspended only by the "rib" on the sides. No wonder they recommend such a low torque setting, and that the front screw has tendency to come loose. I think that's specific in the design of the bedding system. Glass bedding it will negate such feature.

I would use a thin spring washer to keep the front screw front from coming loose. Loctite will work, but it would be a pain to deal with whenever you need to take the rifle apart.

-TL
 
UPDATE

DISASTER :mad:

OK maybe not a disaster but the rifle shot so bad today I almost chucked it in the dirt . I started out shooting a load I worked up a little while ago that always shot moa or better . I could not get it to shoot less the 1.5 moa . I brought some Fed GMM with me for reference because I can shoot one little raged hole with it . OOPS not any more , best group might have been 1.3 moa . I played with the torque and nothing seemed to help .

There was one thing that may have saved the day or rifle for that matter . A couple days ago I was looking through all my notes and targets . I noticed something I thought was odd .

38.5gr of any one of three powders with any one of three bullets shot great .
Imr-4895
Viht N-540
IMR 4064
175gr smk
178gr A-MAX
190gr smk

As long as the charge is 38.5gr I can use any of the above in any combo and get great results . All groups were sub moa and about half of those were 1/2 moa or better .

So I loaded some 175gr smk with 38.5gr of IMR-4064 in PPU cases and I loaded 178gr A-MAXs with IMR-4064 in WCC-06 cases . and shot sub moa with both and if I were to guess I'd say the worst was 1/2 moa . So , at least I know the rifle can still shoot . I now just need to confirm and or even find it's happy place .

Although that load does shoot well It does not have the velocity I'm looking for . My notes say those loads are in the low 2,400fps range and I was really hoping for low to mid 2500fps range . Those loads will do 800yds but I was hoping for more
 
The inconsistency is a bit confusing.
In #13, you said the rifle "shot well" after the bedding, but doesn't, now...

I just took a closer look at the pics in #9. The area around the recoil lug looks pretty rough. The rough looking gap in front isn't critical, but the sides and back need to be really "tight". Is it just a bad angle on the pic that makes this area look so rough?
 
It was a little rough and I cleaned that up but thats for not . The rifle seemed to really do no better with it bedded . I was shooting moa or a little better before bedding and I shot pretty much the same with it bedded .

EDIT : I should be more clear about this . I'm comparing it to the best the rifle has ever shot with out bedding . Not just from the point it started shooting double groups and very inconsistent . Yes the rifle is shooting better then when I first notice the loose action screws but not better then it ever has .

I was thinking the reason it was shooting well was that I kept a close eye on the torque . so I popped the bedding back out thinking if the rifle was really not doing any better why have the bedding in there . I talked about this 5 or 6 posts ago . It seems I may have been wrong about that .

I'm a little perplexed my self . Only that I've shot 3 or 4 hundred rounds of GMM thought he rifle and it shot it so well I was a bit amazed . 1/2 moa no problem but now now better then 1.3moa

EDIT : I want to add that I do understand that at each torque setting the rifle can and will shoot different . It appears that I do not have the right torque for GMM or other loads I thought were good . The problem is I never knew what that torque was in the first place . What's frustrating for me right now is I can't seem to find that one good torque setting the rifle once had . 5 months ago the rifle wood shoot moa with just about anything I put through it and 1/2 moa was not uncommon . Now I can't even get GMM to shoot out of it now. I can't tell you how discouraged I was today but like all range trips there is always that one load that blows me away with how great it shoots . That's what keeps me coming back for more heart ache .

That's very interesting. The front of the receiver is actually floating above the bedding block, and it is being suspended only by the "rib" on the sides. No wonder they recommend such a low torque setting, and that the front screw has tendency to come loose.
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I've been putting some thought to this and think that floating the action has to be bad for the rifle and I'd bet dollars to dough nuts that was what was giving me the double groups .

I did a torque test tonight on the action screws to see at what torque they would stop turning or the action would bottom out . I worked up in 10lb increments from 20lbs . Savage says 40lbs on both screws is what I should do . The front screw stopped turning at 60lbs and the back stopped at 50lbs . As for me saying in a earlier post that the back screw stops at 30lbs . I was wrong but I feel for a good reason . The torque did top at 30lbs until I hit 50lbs and the screw turned again . I had never went that high before because the torque wrench broke at 35 , 40 and 45lbs . There for I thought it was maxed out and I did not want to strip the screw again . . This time I kept going to where my torque wrench was maxed out . Thats over 60lbs but not sure how far the numbers stop at 60 . If I had to guess I'd say somewhere around 70lbs based on the scale on the torque wrench .

One interesting note . When torquing the screws down I can feel the action teeter totter back and forth as it wedged it self in the ribs of the bedding system . More at first then less and less as the action got tighter . I sure would like to see what's going on in there with the recoil lug . I can't Imagen it's staying pressed up against the bedding block the whole time . If the action is not square to the bedding system I don't see how the recoil lug would be square to the block . With the way the action wedges it's self into the bedding system there has to be multiple torque settings that squares the action to the bedding system till it bottoms out . At which time I'd like to think it would be square to the bedding block .

Anyways I just can't see how floating the action on the ribs of the accu-stock is a good idea . There is all kinds of pressures and torque going on when the rifle is fired . I'd think there would be some movement if floated .
 
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This is just an observation, I think you went too far on your "Clean Up" The bedding is an impression of the bottom of the receiver. Then, it looks
like you sanded right back down to the flat rail. The clean-up should be limited to the outer edges and not the impression of the receiver. I feel like
You are kinda back where you started.
 
I feel like You are kinda back where you started.
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Boy is that an under statement :D and thats on me for sure .

OK I'll give you guys a blow by blow of my bedding . This was all done before I ever shot the rifle with the bedding in . I used the putty stuff first and it was to thick for my receiver to pinch it down all the way or I did not apply enough torque to the screws . I only torqued it to 40lbs when doing the bedding . Savage said 40lbs on each screw so thats what I did . In hindsight probably not what I should have done .

The action was sitting off the bottom block a little bit and I could tell the action was sitting up higher then before . Not much but some . I was thinking that may be preventing the side ribs from clamping the action the way it was intended . What I did to fix that was sand down the bedding material about a 1/16" and by doing so exposed the bottom spine of the aluminum . I then used a thiner steel reinforced epoxy and bed the action again . By using the thinner compound . When I torqued down the action it squeezed all the new bedding material away from the spine and the final result is what you see in the picture . The area I cleaned up was at the bottom off where the recoil lug sat . In the picture where the recoil lug pushes up against the bedding . That area looks curved but it was not . It was very square to the bedding block .

If you look at the second pic in post #9 You can see the two defferent colors of the epoxy back bedding . The second bedding material is a little darker .

I think I shouldn't have popped the bedding back out -duh :rolleyes: I'm thinking of doing it again but this time I will torque it past the 40lbs I did last time . That may push the putty out of the way better and I won't need to bed it a second time .
 
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I have done it both ways but when I see how out of kilter the action is when I do that . I don't see how the recoil lug can stay square to the block . That's why I was saying I'd like to see inside the stock/action to see how it settles in to place . when you tighten the screws It feels very different then when you tighten a traditional stock . You can see and feel the action sink into the stock with each turn of the screws . If you tighten the front screw down to lets say 40lbs then the back to 30lbs . The front is no longer at 40lbs and the screw will turn a little before breaking at 40lbs again . That was all part of what I was trying to find out about with Savage but Debra Roberts with CS was not very helpfull .

I think I have some model clay . I'll do a test and see if any clay sqeezes in between the recoil lug and bedding block when I torque the front screw first . If it does then there would be a gap between the recoil lug and bedding block when fully torqued . That would not be good . If I have some clay I'll update in a few
 
One interesting note . When torquing the screws down I can feel the action teeter totter back and forth as it wedged it self in the ribs of the bedding system . More at first then less and less as the action got tighter .
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The front of the receive is floating for sure then. It is certainly unconventional. To be frank I myself simply can't handle out-of-box thinking of this kind. I believe the receiver should be in as tight of contact with the stock as physics allows, short of compressing the wood, stressing the metal, or breaking anything.

-TL
 
metel-- is this the 4 4 spacing on the screws?. i have 2 stocks( not accustock) i would be more than happy to give one to you. Just pay shipping and give that a try
 
4runnerman Thanks I'll keep that in mind but not just yet .

I just finished the model putty test and to my surprise . The recoil lug stayed snugged up and tight against the bedding block .I torqued it to 55lbs and it squeezed all the clay from the spine and pretty much looked like the pics of the bedding I did before . I took some pics but the computer I use for uploading pics is acting up and may have a virus . so your just going to have to take my word for it :)

But the action would be floating if I only had it torqued to 40lbs like Savage says
 
I've been watching this, curious as to see how you were thinking.

Why are you bedding the accustock? What I mean is, your origional complaint was the action screws would not stay torqued, right? What would bedding do to help this?

Nothing. By bedding it you are defeating the whole purpose of the accustock. You're inducing stress points along the action. Here's why: those rails on the side are supposed to flex out when you tighten down the screws. This makes the action aligned with the stock. When you bed the rifle, you're putting it at 2 points and torquing it down, causing the bedding block to remain flexed open at those 2 points (not along the whole block) and not allowing it to properly cradle the action.

This is not a traditional block that the action rest on top of. Like you said, you can feel it sinking into the block as you torque it down. This pressure is designed into the bedding block. This means the whole bottom is not supposed to touch (round action, square bottom rail) if you had a larger contact surface you wouldn't have the flex holding the action. Which wouldn't matter with a full bedding job, I suppose.

If you try to torque down the front screw first, you'll put the rear action screw in a bind. If you torque the front action screw down first you'll have too much pressure for the rear to adjust properly. Both ways can allow the bolts to loosen as you shoot and the action settles. The best way I've found is to start the rear, snug up the front just hand tight, then torque rear and front bolts. When done like that the front doesn't loosen at all.

I'm going to guess the reason the bedding popped out so easily is because the bedding block is made to flex outwards, and as you torqued and shot the rifle it was still flexing underneath the bedding. Much like popping ice cubes out of a tray.

If you're going to bed it, might want to try bedding the whole channel behind the lug. This will negate the accustock completely, so you could do it in any stock that would fit the action. The accustock is made to give a glass bedded type rigidness without the cost and skill to do a proper bedding. You can cnc out blocks of aluminium faster and with much better consistancy then people could properly bed and clean out action areas.
 
Semi : all valid points and I believe I've been there at all different points and is why I popped the bedding out . Knowing that bedding in not what this system was intended to have is why I was willing to start over .

The reason I thought bedding the stock would help with the screws was simple . I knew and believe at 40lbs of torque the action would move around a bit when fired . I think thats what is helping the screws to work loose . My thought is/was stop the action from moving around and the screws don't come loose . I then would be able to check and or re torque the action each time I go shooting . That would not be possible If I was using locktite . The other thing is knowing the action is likely floating is still hard to except as a reliable system .

As for in what order to tighten the screws . You are the first person to ever say start with the back ones . Everybody I've talked with has said to start with the front . I did at one point think like you are thinking or at least close to it . I tried torquing them equally in 5 and 10lb increments but that did not seem to help but never did back screw first .

I think my real problem is I never knew what the torque was when the rifle was shooting it's best . That was between shots 1 Thru 400 . I'm now over 1,400 shots fired through the gun and that in it self has it's own issue I may need to over come . I have not discounted the fact I've eroded the throat enough that the 168gr GMM just does not shoot as good as they once did . I remember it feeling like I was pushing the bullet into the lands when chambering that round . It does not feel like that any more . I also have not discounted the fact I've filled my head with so much garbage I can't see the forest through the trees .

I will contact Savage again and make sure they want the action floating with the sides doing all the support as well as if the front or back screw should be torqued down first .
 
The action should not move when fired. I took mine apart and put it back together just to check again. There shouldn't be any movement in the rifle if it's torqued right. If you're not tightening the bolts correctly they could be binding so you a torqued reading but working loose as the rifle shoots and settles. What is your COL? Do you measure to the lands or use book COL? You might have worn a little of the throat and just need to seat the rounds further out. Easy enough to check with a borescope.

Do you keep a shot log book? Number of rounds, average group size, temp, humidity, wind speed and direction, range, relevant load and rifle data? I have a little graph paper notepad I try to track any changes I make when I shoot. Helps out comparing changes in equipment, loads, weather effects. I use the graph paper so I can plot groups and track them later.

Might want to step back and start over. See what your col needs to be, work up a best load. Group that load a few times. Keeping your torque at 40# then change 1 thing at a time. Rear screw torque. Front screw torque. Bedding (or maybe not) bullets, powder, primers, brass. Sort your brass and bullets by weight. Uniform flash holes and primer pockets. Nit-pick and be anal about it.
 
Short answer , yes I keep detailed notes of just about everything you mentioned . Not humidity and rarely wind speed except when I can feel it . All load work up has been at 100yds . IMO light wind is not going to change a 1/2 moa load to a 1.5 moa load or vise versa at 100yds . Thats what I'm getting or was getting double groups from range trip to range trip . I keep all my targets , keep track of ammo temp , barrel temp and ambient temp before each string . I have a OAL gage and a micrometer bullet seater .I do not throw my charges . I measure each load with a beam scale . My loads are check weighted every ten charges . I do the flash holes , trim every time etc etc etc . Although I'm semi new to reloading I work my butt off when reloading . I have no problem believing my loads are consistent .

I'm off the lands any where from 10 to 20 thou depending on the bullet I don't even measure OAL anymore My notes only have my comparator measurement and what that is on my seating die .

My detailed notes are what is confusing . I will load the exact same load from my Notes and shoot in just about the same conditions ( conditions are never the exact same ) but at 100yds close enough and the results are light years apart . I'm in San Diego the conditions don't change much here .

Yes I've considered the shooter being the problem and a couple times I'm sure I was , but noted that and moved on . It does not happen when I shoot my other rifles or when I shoot other guys rifles . Heck Half the time I can get my loads to shoot better in other guys rifles then they do in the rifle I'm having issues with . I have one load that works great in every rifle I shot it through that total now is 9 different rifles including my two 308s . All shoot sub moa with the load . My Savage did when I first worked it up but now I can barely get moa out of it .

I'm confident the issue is with the rifle in some way . I just need to start a new and go slow just like you say . I just hope I don't shoot the barrel out before I resolve the issue :eek::D
 
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Metal- At 1400 rounds you are no where close to shooting the barrel out yet. In a 308 you might be maybe 1/2 way if even that. Here is a crazy thought. I have 9 Savages now,all shoot sub MOA- 6 of them ( no accustock though) 35 rear and 30 front for the screws. Maybe a starting point?. I looked at my other post to you and saw I had it backwards. Rear screw first and most time 5 inch lbs tighter than front.
Also- The Blue loctite is the way to go. when and if you need to take screws out,They break loose very easy, but will not loosen on there own. Just make sure it is Blue loctite not Red. The loctite is used only after you have found your settings.
 
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I'm just spitballing any ideas I got metal. I don't think it's the stock simply because it was good but now isn't. Somthing generally has to change for that to happen.

Have you swapped scopes? Checked the crown of your muzzle? Cleaned your barrel?

Do you have any pictures of a "good" shot group vs a "bad" one?
 
I'll try to get some pics up soon .

I sure hope I get a lot more then 1400 more rounds . I've put 1100 through it in the last 2 months alone . At this rate the barrel will be trashed by Feb.

I have not looked at the crown . The rifle has a muzzle brake and I'll need to get a crush washer before taking it off .

I did clean the bore very well ,down to bare metal very early in load development . I was having pressure issues at first do to how deep I had to seat the bullets to keep them off the lands . Turned out they were not getting stuck in the lands . My thraot was fouled to the extreme . after cleaning I gained 50 thousandths of OAL I could work with :eek: I had went 400rds with out cleaning the bore . I've been doing a light cleaning after each range trip and always start with 4 or 5 fouling shots I shoot around 100 rounds each trip some times much more . I have not notice accuracy getting better later in the day . The other day I shot GMM at round counts of 16 , 32 , 40 and in the 60s they all shot the same

hmm never thought of the scope . Most likely because when I noticed the double groupings I found that my stock was loose so I went with that as the issue . Sure would suck if it's been my scope the whole time .
 
I'd deffinately pull that muzzle brake and check the crown too. Maybe just shine a flashlight down there and check it out for now... I have a muzzle brake on my AR and after 700 rounds I took it off to try out another adapter and I had severe carbon build up. Could be that the carbon build-up is uneven or has chipped off on one side or the other.
 
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