Bear PROTECTION, not Bear Hunting

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briandg, that's in line with almost every black bear I've seen. While I agree about 9mm, I'd certainly consider .357 Sig with solids. As I mentioned previously, I've been surprised by how many people I meet IRL who carry .40 S&W in the woods. I've also been surprised by how many just use their regular defensive hollow-points in .40 S&W without a second thought. I don't know of anyone being killed by wildlife but I have heard a few believable accounts of people exterminating aggressive wildlife with only that.

As much as its easy to underestimate the great bears, I think people tend to overestimate black bears. Yes, they are relatively powerful and sturdy animals with small one-shot kill zones. No, they aren't behemoths who laugh in the face of ordinary bullets. They are flesh and blood, usually in the sizes and weights you described above. I think a full-sized handgun in .357 magnum, 10mm, or even .357 Sig with the right bullets is plenty of preparation for your average woodland activities in places where black bears represent the top of the threat ladder.
 
...no counter reports given of people who had their legs chewed off after using one in defense.
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When I search the internet, I do find many instances of people asserting that using a 9mm for bear defense is certain to result in injury or death to the wielder, but when I try to find actual incidents where those predictions came true, I come up empty.

Given that such incidents would certainly be newsworthy, I find the lack of documented incidents to be interesting.
field results mean nothing.
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They do demonstrate, even to the most skeptical, that 9mm CAN work for bear defense.

That's not an assurance that they will work in any given circumstance, but then again, there is no such assurance for any type of bear defense.

At any rate, I think it's safe to say that field results do mean something, even if that something isn't a guarantee of success.
 
From the bear expert Herrero to the Fed advice on bear spray vs guns to the general advice 25 yrs ago...(and I CAN look up and source some of this if necessary)

The folks who use bear spray tend to not get injured or killed as often as those who used who use a handgun. The theory is bears get a lot more angry when they are shot.Decades ago I recall hearing there was no recorded case of anyone in AK defending themselves with a handgun against a Brown/Grizzly and surviving. That's probably changed.

I'm not saying a person packing a 9mm is hopeless/helpless.There is a story in Kanut's book about an Alaskan Native trapper woman with a single shot 22 killing a brown/grizzly.Karamojo Bell ,elephants,and a 7x57,etc.In both cases,I'd prefer a .375 H+H

For myself,I would choose a cartridge with a higher probability of disabling the bear. Again,if I was buying a woods protection handgun,the Buff Bore and Underwood type hard cast 200 gr + 10 mm loads,combined with the mag capacity,reasonable cost,and reliability of a Glock 20 ...about $600,plus a grooved vs polygon rifled barrel for the cast bullets...…..seems to shine as a practical choice,and I'm NOT a Glock guy.I don't own one.I'd buy one if I was concerned about bears.


17 or 19 shots of not quite 41 Magnum performance seems a pragmatic choice.


I'd agree,generally,lightning,etc are greater hazards.But when folks quote "Only "X" number of people have been documented as injured/killed by bears...those numbers are often posted by "agenda" people. Herrero says,IIRC,about 63 people roughly in the 20th century. OK..,but how many folks went into the woods and were never heard from again? Cause unknown?
 
Sorry to those who were offended
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Are you kidding? People these days live to be offended. That's their mantra. You just gave them another reason to live.

Back on topic. You're on the right track concerning calibers. You'll make a fine choice regardless.

Just make sure you're intimately familiar with the gun, and ammo, you're carrying in bear country. When I'm armed and "in the wild" sometimes my sidearm is under layers of clothing. A bear can move something like 50 feet a second. If I ever ran into an aggressive bear, I doubt I'd be able to draw, aim and fire as fast as he can close the distance.

Practice your fast draw, too. Unloaded of course.
 
HiBC said:
The theory is bears get a lot more angry when they are shot.
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I can't remember if I've already posted this on this thread or not, but my son (who lives in Alaska) had an experience a few years ago in which a brownie went down four times, and got back up after the first three times, each time angrier than he was before. The first two drops were caused by an arrow shot by my son. The last two drops were caused by his friend using an H&H .375 (one shot per drop). After the bear finally died, they established that all 4 hits would have been fatal to the near, but the first 3 wouldn't have been fatal quickly enough to save my son and his friend. My son had been stalking a moose in dense woods, and first saw the bear in front of him, and the bear ran off in the opposite direction ... just what you'd like to happen. But just a little later, the bear charged from behind (he had circled around, out of sight and quietly, for the attack).

Glock 20 [...] 17 or 19 shots of not quite 41 Magnum performance seems a pragmatic choice.
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a 10mm is good, but it's no .41mag. And it's even farther below a .44mag.
 
Mike Fontentot

I don't claim the 10 mm equals the 41 Mag.

A lot of load books post test barrel/no cylinder gap numbers.Example,Hogdon says 1630 fps with a 210 jhp and H-110. Awesome! Read the fine print 10 .125 in bbl,and I assume a sealed universal receiver breech. Realistic Contender numbers.


At the bottom of the linked chart you will see a "real world" number for a Gold Dot 210 gr round fired from a 4 in S+W 41 mag.Its about 1200 fps

If you carry a 6in,you will gain some.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/41mag.html

If you go to Buffalo Bore,they show 1140 fps from a stock length Glock 20 using a 220 gr bullet.(4.6 in)

Feel free to disagree,but I don't think Yogi will notice the difference.

Yogi and I both may notice the Glock holds about three cylinders worth of ammo with no reloading.
 
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Recall too, on Buffalo Bore's website, he says 9mm FMJ is sufficient for bear.

Outside of XTP ("deliver deep penetration with every shot," Hornady), there aren't many good bullets that are constructed to go FAST without falling apart.

Speer (now owned by Vista which owns Federal) released their 10mm Gold Dot this year and it is rather light in speed. Might be a reason due to break up.

We still don't have an HST 10mm. Why? HST opens up fine. Too hot and fast in 10mm??? Break up?
 
Since this is not hunting scenario...let’s make this whole argument simple, what’s the most powerful caliber that you can “spray and pray”

For me it’s anything around 200-300gr at 1200fps. It dun matter what the ultimate round is if you can’t handle it
 
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what’s the most powerful caliber that you can “spray and pray”
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Have to disagree with this advice. Just as with self-defense on the mean streets, you dang well better hit what you are shooting at. And the more and sooner you can place your chosen caliber and weight bullets on/in the vitals of the bear or the bad guy the better.

All spray & pray is good for is emptying the gun and hitting bystanders. Ask the victims of drive-by shootings.

Dave
 
50% of all shot and wounded bears end up with the shooter being mauled. We know this from the link from the national service that tracks this data (link above)

Spray and pray works with bear spray. Also backed by data.
 
wild cat mccane said:
Recall too, on Buffalo Bore's website, he says 9mm FMJ is sufficient for bear.

Outside of XTP ("deliver deep penetration with every shot," Hornady), there aren't many good bullets that are constructed to go FAST without falling apart.

Speer (now owned by Vista which owns Federal) released their 10mm Gold Dot this year and it is rather light in speed. Might be a reason due to break up.

We still don't have an HST 10mm. Why? HST opens up fine. Too hot and fast in 10mm??? Break up?
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9mm FMJ is sufficient for bear for what? Hunting or SD? Just another subjective opinion, made by someone wanting to sell ammo. Is it sufficient? Under proper conditions, in specif scenarios, probably. Not my first choice, but better than nuttin'.

Having XTP on the box does not always mean "deep penetration". I use a lot of them. Some are made for SD against two legged predators and made to expand more rapidly than some others. I've had mixed results on them on deer sized game as far as expansion and penetration. In .357, I would stick with the XTP-FPs as opposed to their XTP-HPs iffin' I was thinkin bear.

As for the Speer's. Iffin it still says "Gold Dot" on the box, it's meant for quick expansion and terminal performance against humans. If you want their similar bonded bullet for deep penetration, they now call them Deep Curls. They changed the name to differentiate them and to stop the confusion. Odds are, there is no "Deep Curl" for 10mm, as there is not a high demand for a hunting type bullet in that caliber. So, you're gonna get quick expansion, as designed.

One needs to know what they are getting, when it comes to bullets and their construction. Best place to get the correct info, is directly from the manufacturer.

Last, but not least, why are we discussing semi-autos and their ammo in the revolver forum?
 
Last, but not least, why are we discussing semi-autos and their ammo in the revolver forum?
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For the same reason we discussed bear spray. Options to consider outside the echo chamber.The possibility of learning something.

I;m not a Glock fanboy.I'm as tired of seeing "Glock" in print as I am of the latest on the British Royal Family,the Kardashians,and Miley Cyrus.
I do not own a Glock.

If I were going where bears are a concern,I HAVE my 5 in Super Blackhawk.It will do. A single action wheel gun.

But if I were to buy or recommend a bear protection handgun it would be a reliable,double stack 10mm. IMO,the affordable choice is a Glock.


On the topic of bullets: IMO,penetration is priority.Heavy,hardcast. I did link to a Gold Dot load for a velocity reference from a 4 in bbl S+W 41 mag.That had nothing to do with shooting bears with Gold Dots.I do not want an expanding jacketed bullet from a handgun to shoot bears

I've seen a 44 mag 240 gr JSP bullet stop cold in the neck/spine of a cow elk shot broadside at close range.She dropped stone dead,but penetration was not much more than 1/2 the neck.

I once found the head of a domestic hog at the dump.I leaned it against a piece of plywood and did some .44 magnum "ballistic testing" The expanding JSP 44 Mags went through the head,but stopped at the plywood. The pile of bullet frags was on the ground.Penetration?About 6 inches.Definitely less than 8.


Wheelweight bullets punch
 
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Taken straight from Buffalo Bore's website today, 1/5/2019:

"We do this because a lot of people own those guns and don’t want to buy a 454 Casull or 44 mag. I would have no problem defending myself against a black bear attack (and have done so) with the proper 9MM ammo. I prefer a more powerful/bigger cartridge, but the 9MM will get it done, even on grizzlies, if you take their brain with a flat nosed, non-expanding bullet. Of course, making a brain shot under such duress will take practice and cool nerves."

When you go to buy your bear loads, please let me know what company you buy it from. Double Tap also sells the same 9mm "outdoor" load. The "bear" loads are Double Tap, BB, and Underwood. All have the "Outdoor" 9mm FMJ 147+p.

As the diameter difference from any handgun round against a 9mm is physically nothing...it sounds like BB's owner is saying killing a bear, under duress, is hard. At 50% chance of getting mauled by shooting but not killing a bear is a flip of a coin, we recommend:

Bear spray.
 
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Bear spray has a better track record then firearms.

But if spray doesn't stroke your ego enough....

Practice
Placement
Penetration

9mm S&W 3954

Alaska-Man-Kills-Charging-Brown-Bear-With-9mm-Pistol-630x339.jpg
 
50% of all shot and wounded bears end up with the shooter being mauled. We know this from the link from the national service that tracks this data (link above)
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That's not exactly what the article says.

https://above.nasa.gov/safety/documents/Bear/bearspray_vs_bullets.pdf

"...since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. ...a person’s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used."​
The article does not indicate whether or not the bears were actually shot or wounded, it only states that people defending themselves with firearms end up being injured half the time

In other words, incidents where a person tried to frighten a bear off by firing a shot, or when the defender shot at the bear and missed, would all qualify as "defending with a firearm" but wouldn't involve the bear being shot or wounded.

It's also worth noting that the article doesn't distinguish between types of firearms, not even between long guns and handguns.

It would be interesting to see the raw data used to draw the conclusions in the article. In other words, to see what kinds of firearms/calibers were used, which incidents involved the bears actually being shot, and, to the extent possible, where the shots impacted.

My suspicion is that self-defense against bears with handguns is very similar to self-defense against humans with handguns. If you don't hit anything important then you don't get a stop, no matter what caliber you're using. And if you do hit something important you do get a stop, again, no matter what caliber you're using.

Anyway, the one thing that does come through clearly in that article is that bear spray seems to be more effective than firearms for preventing injury to the defender. I suspect that a big part of that is that it's pretty easy to use.
 
HiBC said:
For the same reason we discussed bear spray. Options to consider outside the echo chamber.The possibility of learning something.
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The reason I discussed bear spray is because OP brought up the subject of Bear Spray in his opening post of this thread. Thus it is not off topic. Bringing into the discussion a whole different platform is. My recommendation would be for a 12 ga. with slugs or a rifle, but neither, like semi-auto pistols, fall under the category of a revolver. Now if this was in the general handguns forum, or the hunting forum, I could understand.

Just sayin'......;)


wild cat mccane said:
BB's owner is saying killing a bear, under duress, is hard. At 50% chance of getting mauled by shooting but not killing a bear is a flip of a coin, we recommend:

Bear spray.
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Exactly what many of us here have been saying all along, even tho it is not what the OP wants to hear.

Again.....just sayin'.;)
 
50% of all shot and wounded bears end up with the shooter being mauled. We know this from the link from the national service that tracks this data...
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In addition to JohnKSa's comments, there is another statistical problem lurking here. How many people successfully defend against aggressive wildlife without injury and never report it? How many receive minor injuries and never report it? How many "reported" incidents simply disappear into the statistical badlands? (For instance, it gets reported to a hospital or insurance company and the chain ends there.)

This is similar to the data void in defensive human encounters in which simply the appearance of a gun deters a threat. An unknown number of those go unreported or improperly cataloged as well.
 
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