Bear:is the9mm enough

If a 9 is what you’ve got , carry it.

I’ve carried .22LR, .22 Mag, .327 Federal, 9 mm, .38 Special, .357 Mag, .41 Mag, .45 auto, and .45 Colt while out in the woods, for protection against predators, mostly the two legged kind.

Couldn’t tell you what works best against bears, as all of my bear encounters (5-6), the bears all went the other way.

Carry what you’ve got/are comfortable shooting, there is no one cartridge/caliber/gun that’s “perfect”.
 
Why would you carry 9mm when in bear territory when you could just as easily carry a .45 or a 10mm? I can understand not wanting to bother with the heft and recoil of a super magnum revolver like .454, .460, or .500, but when it's an autoloader, there's no reason not to go to .40 caliber or larger.
 
Another bear thread! Is there suddenly a large number of bear attacks happening I have not read about?:D

Black bear, grizzly, Kodiak (aka Alaskan brown), polar?
Nine's have been known to kill large gears.
But really, in bear country I carry at least a .40 (200 gr Buffalo Bore) and in dense areas of Grizzlies such as Shoshone NF, I will also bring along a .44 mag with 300 gr Corbon Hunter.
And all that ammo is flat nose hard cast!

But I also carry and have used bear spray twice and I'm still here with both arms, so it worked.:D
 
It has already come up but I'll repeat that there is a big difference in size and behavior between the average black bear and grizzlies, polar bears, etc. Black bears tend to be a lot smaller. Every one I've ever seen was only a few hundred pounds and very timid, to the point that they can simply be shouted away. That doesn't mean they aren't dangerous or couldn't kill or severely injure you in certain situations. They also still have thick skulls and relatively small vitals for their size.

I honestly think moose are more dangerous than bears where I live. :)

After a close encounter with a large and very bold black bear, I switched from carrying Gold Dots to the Lehigh bullets for my field carry load in my .357 Sig. I think the Lehigh bullets make better sense in case I have to use them on a large wild animal.
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I've actually been considering this for woods carry. Coyotes might be the most realistic threat. Black bears and moose usually know enough to stay away from people although surprise is an obvious risk factor. I'd previously been carrying .357 magnum in the woods but that full-sized steel revolver is pretty heavy!

With .357 Sig, I can get at least twice the ammo in a much lighter package. Some people worry about the lighter bullet weights. This Lehigh ammo looks like it performs well for a non-deforming solid in most tests I've seen. I think it would be an excellent compromise for this purpose.

Those Xtreme Penetrators are somebody's idea of cool. They don't make the bullet penetrate any more than a regular jacket. The progressive nose geometry stuff is marketing BS...
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They are certainly a novel idea and they definitely have a silly name. Sure, they don't penetrate much more than your standard FMJ in a lot of media. Just think twice before you hit these with the BS stick. The benefit seems to be:

1. They penetrate at least as well as any other solid of similar weight, which is a reasonable 115 grains in 9mm. However, they should hold up better than FMJ in some media. They should be at least as good as hard cast lead or other solid copper projectiles in this respect.

2. Unlike smooth solids or even those with sharp meplats, these tend to disrupt media a lot more! This is basic physics and they perform exactly as I'd expect them to in tests that I've seen.

3. In cases where you can't or don't want to use hollow-points, these could be your best shot at tissue disruption in a wound channel.
 
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Bears are not a huge concern of mine, but they are around and I've been seeing more and more of them. In my area, black bears are the only bears around unless I'm unfortunate enough to stumble across a fugitive from a Zoo. If I am in the woods and not hunting, I carry my 9mm loaded with fmj. It is my understanding that fmj has a better chance of reaching vitals in a meaty bear than defensive hp rounds. To be honest, no amount of firepower makes me feel good when a bear is nearby.
 
That’s more like what I had in mind when I started this thread, the bullets not so much the Cartridge
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The simple answer:

If all I had was 9mm, that's what I'd carry. If black bears were a concern, I'd definitely choose the "Xtreme Penetrators" in 9mm for reasons already discussed. In most places, it is still a pretty rare threat and possibly rarer than running into dangerous human beings on the trail. (Those bullets will also work just fine for bad guys, coyotes, wild dogs, etc.)
 
the bullets not so much the Cartridge
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I would never recommend straight-up 9x19 for bear, even black bear. If you're just talking 9mm bullet, then I'd suggest 357 Sig from a full sized pistol like a Glock 31 or the tried and true 357 Magnum.
 
According to the internet, the only thing that might give you a chance against a bear is a 40mm Bofors cannon, and the safest bet is a 105mm Howitzer.

Me, personally?
I carry a 9mm (w/ 124 Gold Dots) or .327 Federal (various loads) in bear country, far more than anything else (even with multiple .44 Mags and a .480 Ruger at my disposal).
I've had bear encounters. I've read many stories. I've done a lot of research.
My odds, in my opinion, are just as good - possibly better - with a 9mm, than with one of the large bore options.

Grizzly may be a bit tougher, but black bears are soft, squishy, sensitive little things that are not difficult to kill - let alone dissuade from snacking on your toes. Unless you're around Grizz, don't over-think it.
 
Grizzly may be a bit tougher, but black bears are soft, squishy, sensitive little things that are not difficult to kill - let alone dissuade from snacking on your toes. Unless you're around Grizz, don't over-think it.
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I highlighted the best advice in this quote. I mean, it's fun to discuss but as I said, it's a pretty rare threat in most places. I've personally shouted away a number of animals, including two black bears. The only time I was ever really scared around wildlife was a coyote that got into a brief staring contest with me.

It was just after I got done shooting a big revolver for recreation. I walked around the bend and there he was. (A hunting buddy later suggested that that gunfire can mean food and coyotes are quick learners.) I actually drew my little CCW and had it fail, leaving me staring down the "that's not a dog" with my heart pounding. Lucky for me, he just turned tail and bounded up over the bank after a few seconds.

Bears are the biggest, baddest animals many of us might face. Lucky for us, we probably won't. As with ordinary EDC, it's important to prepare for the worst but also to balance that against practical concerns and living our lives. Personally, it looks like I'll be retiring my .357 magnum for .357 Sig on woodland walks. For EDC in the civilized world, it's either 9mm or .327 Federal.
 
So I was wondering
Would a bullet like say the these from Lehigh defense
https://www.lehighdefense.com/produc...ant=1066222584
Change the Perception on the 9x19 Being enough for a bear?
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That is a poor round for worrying about using on an errant bear. Others made this point correctly. I'll just add that a hard cast lead bullet with a broad flat meplat penetrates well, travels straight and can break bone. The latter being a good thing to be concerned with. Something more like this would be much, much better if you are stuck with 9mm...

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...-147-grain-hard-cast-lead-flat-nose-box-of-20

Folks were also correct who said to carry the most powerful caliber and round that you can shoot accurately at speed. 9mm is a minimal round when it comes to that, meaning the minimal place to start from then move upward.

I'll paraphrase Elmer Keith's advice on this (you know he would have started with a 44 Spl., 45 Colt or 44 Magnum.): Have a long gun. If you don't take that advice, then carry a strong powerful revolver and as the bear gets close stick the gun in it's mouth and keep pulling the trigger till you don't have a hand anymore. After that you won't worry about the choice of handgun caliber so much.

tipoc
 
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A 9mm Luger will kill a bear, I know of one any way, however so will a 22LR. My father had one herder that took one with a 9 and another that took several with a 22 single shot. Is a 9mm enough, not in my opinion the above were shot out of trees with dogs below. Dad furnished a 3030 or bigger and these guys were not working for him at the time they did this. A government trapper that covered eastern Washington used a 22lr revolver to kill bears in his traps. Killing a bear is not the same as stopping them before they get to you. For me 357 / 45 or bigger in a handgun.
 
Bear scare

I do not know if you have taken any professional self defense courses, if so you would know that many forces come into play in such a situation.

You will be anxious; nervous; scared; unable to take an action shoot stance, etc.

Get the biggest handgun you are able to fire and consistently put shots where you want them to go every time you fire it. A 9mm is grossly under powered for a large pissed off bruin.

Mine is a S&W model 57 .41mag with 250gr Federal castcore bullets.
 
It's always amusing to me that some people will try to reinvent the wheel and decide that something like a 9mm will be adequate against a large predator like a bear that's intent on turning them into lunch.

All one really has to do is remember something like the Miami-Dade shooting, where Platt was shot multiple times and yet continued to fight for more than 4 minutes.

Even if the average black bear weighs in at only 200 lbs., we're talking about an animal that is much stronger and faster than any man. What do we think might happen if we shoot a very angry bear, and don't hit its CNS? It's possible that it could continue to attack for several minutes. Which means that the vast majority of us are going to be bear poop.

So with the above in mind, is a 9mm adequate for penetrating the skill or spine of an adult bear? Well, without getting into all the math, it takes about 650 lbs/psi to crack a human skull. The average 9mm only produces about 400 lbs. or less of energy at impact. And a bear's forehead is thicker and tougher than a man's. I can't remember how much more, but it's significant.

At the very least, I'd choose a caliber that produces the minimum impact energy to penetrate a bear's skull. If not 2x or more. Just my two cents, of course. Though i have two friends that are Alaskan bear hunting guides, and both carry guns that start with "4s".
 
So with the above in mind, is a 9mm adequate for penetrating the skill or spine of an adult bear? Well, without getting into all the math, it takes about 650 lbs/psi to crack a human skull. The average 9mm only produces about 400 lbs. or less of energy at impact. And a bear's forehead is thicker and tougher than a man's. I can't remember how much more, but it's significant.
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Psi and lb-ft are not compatible or comparable units. Think of it like comparing the burst pressure of an over-heated coke can, versus the twisting force required to open a pickle jar.
But, for the record, the cross-sectional area of a .355" diameter 9mm projectile is 0.098979803542163 square inches. That should save a little time if you do decide to 'get into all the math'. ;)


I completely understand the point you're trying to make (even though I disagree with your opinion), but that argument mixes units in a way that just doesn't work.
 
Yeah that happens when I'm trying to multi-task with a time limit involved. Doesn't change the fact that 9mm bullets are either inadequate to penetrate a bear's skull or at best borderline. Thanks for the cross-sectional area of a 9mm though. Some time next month i might have a chance to play around with that.
 
I don't think 9mm is a great choice for bear defense. That being said, it's the biggest handgun I have. So, in my situation, it beats 22lr and 380 auto. Until I acquire a 357 magnum, and I will eventually, the 9mm has to serve the purpose.
 
I took a look at the bullet the OP linked to. Interesting, we're shooting Phillips Screwdriver tips now. :rolleyes:

OK, its solid copper alloy...yawns...

And its specs are EXACTLY the same as the WWI and WWII German FMJ, a 115gr @ 1150fps. I don't see how any kind of tip, or alloy composition will change the performance to a significant degree.

I do find it amusing how people are so concerned about 9mm shooting through people and walls and hitting other people somewhere downrange, but at the same time think the same ammo won't shoot half way through a bear.
 
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