basic revolver questions.

[tahunua001]

hello all,
so I'm working on piecing together a handgun training and safety course, mostly for personal reasons but may eventually evolve into a publicly available service. one person from the board brought up the point that my course focuses strictly on semi automatic handguns and that people who own revolvers can't take the course. so I have a few questions that would allow me to start piecing together a revolver version of the course.

1. do all cylinders revolve clockwise or are there some goofball counterclockwise models?

2. how practical would it be to require a speed loader and require a timed reload for drills?

3. with semi autos a standardized course is not such a big deal when measuring handicaps because the sight radius difference between models is not so great, however with revolvers there can be as much as 6 inches difference or more depending on makes and models. what would make the most sense to accommodate this difference while sticking to a standardized course (IE giving snubbies a handicap, or requiring a higher score for people with bull barrels).

4. with semi automatics it is fairly easy to fit 50 to 100 rounds of life fire practice into a few hour training course, however because of the length of time it takes to reload revolvers and the ammo capacity limitations, what would you say constitutes a decent round count for a beginner's course?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

1. do all cylinders revolve clockwise or are there some goofball counterclockwise models?

Goofball? When viewed from the rear, all S&W revolvers rotate counterclockwise. So do Ruger double action revolvers. I hardly think that makes them 'goofballs'. All Colt revolvers, both double action and single action, rotate clockwise when viewed from the rear.

2. how practical would it be to require a speed loader and require a timed reload for drills?

How does speed loading have anything to do with a basic safety course? How do timed drills have anything to do with a basic safety course? I have been shooting revolvers for over 40 years and have never used a speed loader.

3. with semi autos a standardized course is not such a big deal when measuring handicaps because the sight radius difference between models is not so great, however with revolvers there can be as much as 6 inches difference or more depending on makes and models. what would make the most sense to accommodate this difference while sticking to a standardized course (IE giving snubbies a handicap, or requiring a higher score for people with bull barrels).

Again, how does scoring have anything to do with a basic safety course?

4. with semi automatics it is fairly easy to fit 50 to 100 rounds of life fire practice into a few hour training course, however because of the length of time it takes to reload revolvers and the ammo capacity limitations, what would you say constitutes a decent round count for a beginner's course?

What length of time? To dump the empties out of a modern revolver, you open the cylinder, point it to the sky and push down the extractor rod? How much time does that take? Beginners should not be trying to reload in a hurry. Take as much time as necessary to teach someone to safely reload a revolver.

Perhaps you should gain more experience with revolvers before attempting to instruct beginners in their safe use.

 

[ammo.crafter]

Hmmm

A strange post, eh?

 

[buck460XVR]

While I agree with Driftwood Johnson on most of the points he made, one exception would be the ease and speed of loading and unloading SA revolvers. Both he and the OP seem to be talking DA revolvers only. Being a "Basic" training and safety course for revolvers, I assume SA would be welcome also. Even tho SAs may take a tad more time and effort, it shouldn't matter for a basic training and safety course.

That said, loading and emptying cases from revolvers is not that time consuming as to be a serious impediment to any serious handgun training course. While once the mags are loaded, loading a pistol may be faster than a revolver, one needs to take into consideration the time it takes to load the mags. I can load and unload my DA revolvers(even without speed loaders) several times in the time it take me to load one mag for my 1911s. Since most students needing a basic training/safety course will not have 5-6 loaded mags in their pocket, they would need time to reload mags if they are going to shoot 50-100 rounds in a session. This would probably take as much time as any revolver shooter needs. While speed drills would have to be adjusted, for the most part, basic training and safety courses are not that focused on speed.

 

[reddog81]

If you need to ask those questions I'd sure hope someone else would be teaching the class if you decide to include revolvers.

Questions 2-4 all depend on the objective of the class. I can't see how you're going to fit timed reload drills into a class if only shooting 50 rounds.

It takes just as long to reload a cylinder as it does to reload a magazine. Unless the automatics all bring numerous loaded magazines the revolvers won't be handicapped at all and will probably be quicker with newbies.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Frankly, I would not include single action revolvers in a basic safety course.

The student will have to learn to eject empties one at a time out of the loading gate then reloading one at time through the loading gate.

The student will have to distinguish between a traditional Colt type lockwork, which is only safe to load with five rounds, with the hammer down on an empty chamber, and a Ruger, which is safe to load up with a full cylinder. This will include instruction on the 'load one, skip one, load four more' technique with a Colt type lockwork, which can be intimidating to a newcomer. Not to mention bringing the hammer to half cock to reload a Colt, and NOT lowering the hammer from half cock.

All of this might be confusing for a rank beginner.

Frankly, I would rather see a beginner learn to deal with a modern double action revolver safely, and feel competent with it, before taking on the more quirky aspects of a single action revolver. I have seen enough 'semi-auto guys' confused about safely reloading a single action revolver at CAS matches to suggest that it warrants a separate class.

 

[tahunua001]

yes the existing course for semi automatic requires timed reloads, which by reload I mean dumping the empty mag and inserting a preloaded magazine and returning to engage the target. I'm asking these questions because obviously I'm a little out of my element. safety comes first, but safety is only half of what a shooter needs to know, marksmanship comes next, followed by speed. I'm not sure I've ever seen a firearms training course that was safety only, but apparently they are quite common given the number of people that assume the course will consist of death by powerpoint followed by throwing a bunch of FNGs out on the range and telling them to shoot fast.

good tip on the SA revolvers, in addition to the issues with the SAs already mentioned, a shooter would also have to become proficient at precocking the hammer after each round which creates nasty habits for beginners transitioning to semis, I've seen enough people who learned on single action revolvers try to reach up and cock the hammer on semi autos after each shot because it's what they're used to doing.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

yes the existing course for semi automatic requires timed reloads, which by reload I mean dumping the empty mag and inserting a preloaded magazine and returning to engage the target. I'm asking these questions because obviously I'm a little out of my element. safety comes first, but safety is only half of what a shooter needs to know, marksmanship comes next, followed by speed.

Speed training has absolutely no place in any firearms course designed for beginners. Safety, safety, safety. That's it. Becoming familiar with the firearm should be the paramount concern, followed by being able to consistently hit the target. Forget about speed and leave that for more advanced courses.

I hope you have NRA certification as an instructor and carry NRA insurance, otherwise you are opening yourself wide open to lawsuits if something goes wrong at your courses.

death by powerpoint followed by throwing a bunch of FNGs out on the range and telling them to shoot fast.

What the dickens is that supposed to mean? Beginners courses should be hands on. Period. What the heck is FNG?

 

[buck460XVR]

Frankly, I would not include single action revolvers in a basic safety course.

The student will have to learn to eject empties one at a time out of the loading gate then reloading one at time through the loading gate.

Isn't that the whole idea behind a basic safety course? Learning how to safely load and unload your gun?

What the heck is FNG?

Can you say F&%#ing New Guy?

 

[sgms]

I agree with many here, do not try to do speed training in a basic safety class. Speed loaders and speed loading you can demo. if you wish but the training to do that belongs in an advanced course. However the loading and unloading of any type of revolver they new shooter may run across is a good idea. Be it single action, side opening DA/SA, as well as break top revolvers (with the last a simple demo would be adaquate to familiarize with the action type) as Driftwood posted SA have special training needs. You would have to touch on the different loading needs of the different types of common SA's. This probably will need a short one on one before live fire to be sure the shooter understands what is safe with his/her SA requires for safe load/unloading. Handicapping seems too me to be unwise to me. Tell them during class room that short barrels and light weight means harder to aim well, more felt recoil and muzzle blast IE you want to shoot short barreled revolvers well you practice more.

 

[Master Blaster]

As a certified NRA basic pistol and basic shotgun instructor who has taught dozens of new shooter how to Safely Handle, Shoot and Store firearms the best advice I can give you is to take an NRA basic pistol course first and to get the NRA basic pistol handbook and safety guides, before you teach others in a basic pistol course. The basic instructor courses are also highly recommended.

If you are starting out with new shooters, a .22lr revolver, and a .22lr semi auto like a Ruger MKII are good starter guns. I used the MKII and a k22 when I am teaching a new shooter as they are easy to shoot, low noise and recoil, and have good visible sights. A good .22 allows the new shooter to learn proper sight alignment and trigger squeeze as well as loading and unloading safely.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Frankly, I would not include single action revolvers in a basic safety course.

I would, and I do. I'm an NRA certified instructor in what used to be called "Basic Pistol." The course covers ALL types of handguns, including SA and DA semi-automatics and both SA and DA revolvers. If you're going to pressume to be teaching people about handgun safety, how can you NOT expose them to all types of firearms they might encounter?

From the original post, I fail to see any reason for teaching about speed loaders. What -- exactly -- is the purported purpose of this course? Although "safety" was mentioned, some aspects of the post seem to me to imply that it's really either a self-defense/tactical course, or a course preparing shooters to participate in competitions.

yes the existing course for semi automatic requires timed reloads, which by reload I mean dumping the empty mag and inserting a preloaded magazine and returning to engage the target.

Why? What does this have to do with teaching safety?

I'm asking these questions because obviously I'm a little out of my element. safety comes first, but safety is only half of what a shooter needs to know, marksmanship comes next, followed by speed.

So in your mind, then, marksmanship and speed are each worth 25 percent of a shooter's education? You can't possibly teach either marksmanship or speed in a single class, and if you try you're only going to create unsafe, bad shooters with bad habits they will then have to unlearn. The NRA's former Basic Pistol course was a one-day, 8-hour class. Its entire focus was solely on teaching new shooters to shoot safely. It didn't presume to be teaching marksmanship, and it very certainly didn't even mention speed.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a firearms training course that was safety only, but apparently they are quite common given the number of people that assume the course will consist of death by powerpoint followed by throwing a bunch of FNGs out on the range and telling them to shoot fast.

The former Basic Pistol was not "death by Powerpoint." It did include a live fire component at the end of the class, but students were NOT told -- or expected -- or allowed -- to just "shoot fast." I don't understand all your emphasis on speed. You can't and shouldn't teach speed. Speed grows out of practice -- lots of practice. Wyatt Earp is sometimes (probably incorrectly) quoted as having said that the secret to winning a gun fight is to "Shoot fast slowly." Whatever he really said, the meaning is clear -- you don't go for speed for the sake of speed. You learn to shoot well and accurately, and let the speed develop from sound principles.

 

[osbornk]

I think a single action would be the best choice for training for the same reason single shot rifles are used to train people to shoot rifles. The time it takes to load and shoot makes the new shooter try harder and concentrate for each shot because of the effort it takes to shoot more. I know I shoot faster and with less concentration when I shoot a handgun, rifle or shotgun that reloads quickly and easily.

 

[tahunua001]

ok some people seem to be a little on edge so let me preface this by saying that I am not maligning anyone who has received their NRA certifications, but frankly certifications mean very little to me. credentialism is a ponsy scheme as far as I'm concerned. every year I have to spend hundreds of dollars to renew certifications to prove that I know how to fix people's computers, or to secure networks, yet the first time I took the test I guessed on 80% of the test and still received my certification even though I know from the start that I was grossly underqualified for the task that the cert claimed I was proficient in.

the last NRA course I took cost me $125 dollars. I spent about 2 hours suffering death by powerpoint and then was left alone for half an hour to read the provided handbook. the instructors came back and handed me a 50 question multiple choice test and left me alone for another half hour to take it. I was then marched onto the firing line and stood in front a 2'x4' sheet of plain pink paper and at a muzzle distance of less than 2 feet was ordered to double tap as fast as I can repeatedly until all 100 rounds of my own ammunition were expended. the instructors didn't bother counting holes to make sure there were no misses and I spotted several safety issues with the other shooters which the range officers and instructors failed to point out or attempt to correct. I walked out angry at having been taught nothing and $125 poorer, but at least I was holding the certificate that allowed me to apply for my concealed carry permit.

so please, I'll gladly accept experience as a summary of qualifications but I will not show any respect at all to your NRA certifications, your peers have destroyed any pride or credibility your certification may carry with it. I also will not take any more classes in my area because of the quality of the instructors in my area. I have looked into taking the NRA pistol instructors course, because as much as I hate credentialism, the world runs on it, and thus in order to have any credibility I must hold a specific piece of paper. in the mean time however, I would like to build a curriculum and test in, in a safe environment, with one-on-one instruction in order to see if it's even worth the time, effort, and money, however the nearest basic instructor classes take place several hundred miles from where I live an would require me to take time off from my day job and cost a pretty penny once all is said and done.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

so please, I'll gladly accept experience as a summary of qualifications but I will not show any respect at all to your NRA certifications, your peers have destroyed any pride or credibility your certification may carry with it. I also will not take any classes more classes in my area because of the quality of the instructors in my area.

What you describe is NOT the NRA Basic Pistol class, and any instructor who taught it the way you describe should be reported to the NRA. But that's water over the dam.

You are confusing the bastardized class that you received from an unethical instructor with the actual curriculum that made up the former NRA Basic Pistol class (before they switched over to on-line instruction). The NRA Basic Pistol course was an excellent introduction to handguns, handgun shooting, and firearms safety. The course guide stipulated that the class run a MINIMUM of eight hours. The live fire component worked out to a MINIMUM of about 75 rounds, IIRC, and if any student didn't perform satisfactorily at any stage they were supposed to repeat the stage -- so it could go more than the minimum. The live fire was a progression, starting from just getting on paper (literally -- a blank paper with no bullseye) and then progressing to an actual target, and then greater distances.

HOWEVER ... the emphasis was not on marksmanship, it was on safe gun handling. In multiple posts you have mentioned timed drills and timed reloads, and that has no place in a class intended to teach beginners about safe gun handling.

The NRA Basic Pistol course was the ideal course syllabus for what you seem to want to be teaching. Unfortunately, the course materials for that class are no longer available from the NRA because of the switch to on-line instruction. The NRA course has stood the test of time and was accepted by (as far as I know) every state that required proof of firearms safety training as a prerequisite to getting a carry permit. There must have been some merit to it. With all due respect, you need to get the chip off your shoulder and look at what's out there rather than trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Flyboy_451]

Based on your original post and subsequent comments...

I would hazard the guess that that you are much more in need of quality instruction than you are in need of providing it for others. The questions you pose lead me to believe that you are quite limited on both good instruction and experience.

My advice would be to attend as many of the well respected training facilities as you can, if you don't already shoot competitively, get started, get certified as a Range Safety Officer in any shooting sport you participate in and get out to some of the major matches where the world class shooters compete.

To be able to teach well, you must not only have a mastery of the skill set being taught, but also the ability to communicate an idea effectively to a broad audience. Knowing how to DO somethings and TEACHING it are two very different skill sets. By attending good training, you not only learn the material, you also begin to learn how to teach it. By training with a variety of instructors, you are doing two things; you are learning to teach and you are also building a professional relationship with people that will gladly act as your mentor. This is what truly makes a good instructor.


And just for the record, I have a few certifications under my belt, including NRA Pistol, rifle, shotgun, muzzle loader, and Law Enforcement. I'm also POST certified, with State of Missouri certifications for both LE and concealed carry.

And in my spare time, I also teach aviation as a Certified Flight Instructor, instruments, single engine, multi-engine, and amphibious.

JW

 

[stagpanther]

Maybe he's including a "competency" component that is more pertinent to a defensive CCW type instruction?? I took a CCW permit course that was taught by officers of a large police department, I don't recall a speed requirement other than safely shooting and hitting targets with a reasonable percentage of hits

 

[PzGren]

1. do all cylinders revolve clockwise or are there some goofball counterclockwise models?

The hand, or what Ruger calls the pawl pushes upwards through a window and will rotate the barrel. S&W and Ruger have the hand on the right side and the barrel consequently turns against the clock.
Colt and Korth, which aren't exactly goofballs, have the hand on the left side and the cylinder moves clockwise.

I expect someone who wants to teach about revolvers to also understand that the teardrop shaped cut in the cylinder slot is indicating the direction that the cylinder turns. This way the revolving direction can be observed without opening up a gun.

There is a lot of learning to be done before someone has the proper qualification to teach! How do you want to explain the way that the transfer bar - a big part of revolver safety - works and are you even aware of this device?

 

[Radny97]

Ruger, Smith, Charter all go counterclockwise (when viewed from the rear) while Colt, Dan Wesson and Rock Island Armory all go clockwise. Not sure I'd call any of those brands goofball.
As to your questions regarding speed loading and the practicalities of a training, it seems to me that you should run a revolver in a few IDPA meets just to familiarize yourself with revolvers and their characteristics in a combat/self-defense type setting before presuming to train others in their use.

 

[buck460XVR]

I would hazard the guess that that you are much more in need of quality instruction than you are in need of providing it for others. The questions you pose lead me to believe that you are quite limited on both good instruction and experience.

In his OP, tahunua001 kinda admits he is short of knowledge and thus asking for advice. He also states that this research is for personal reasons for now and may be used in the future for training others. This tells me he is looking to gain knowledge and experience first, before trying to teach others. Seems fairly reasonable to me and nothing to be chastised for.