Bad Martial Arts (Teaching as Advertised)
- Thread starter madgrad
- Start date
Definitely true. One can learn enlightenment- but that's a byproduct. The first, and most important original goal of a good martial (by definition, used in war or warlike) art is learning how to take out aggressors you encounter- "beligerent" or not.
I find I'm close to your neck of the woods, White Fox. What style(s) do you study?
When I began training in '94, I started at the dojo of the most well-known teacher of the kobudo systems I was studying. After a few months, the artificiality of the man became apparent (perhaps I would have seen it sooner if I hadn't been in such awe). I also noticed that the belts a little above me weren't very good. I was happy when my initial contract was up, and I could leave the dojo of this nationally known teacher and author. I then went across town to another dojo taught by someone who spent his time training instead of making stuff up and blowing his own horn. Took me years to relearn a few things I had learned incorrectly...
Not that being nationally known automatically equates to bad. Bud Malstrom had his walls covered with Black Belt covers showing him in action. He would tell us pretty quickly that he didn't deserve to be a "10th dan". Dangerous, dangerous, frighteningly dangerous little man, and super guy. I think Rob and Rich met him in...99?
I know at least one morbidly obese black belt who can survive being whipped around by his wrist (guyaku-te waza at full combat speed) like he was a rag doll, without incurring any injury. The "Fat Bastard" look usually is a warning sign, though...
Well, there's no thread like an old thread....
Since this thread died I've taken my family to a school in Salt Lake (where we lived then) for a "free lesson" in kenpo. I'm not sure why, but the free lesson actually wound up being two sessions. Most of the second session was with a student instructor who was "ready to test for black belt".
During the first session with the head instructor (a really nice guy) he started to show us all some basic 'get away' moves, including breaking away from someone who had grabbed your wrist. He started by grabbing my wrist and telling me to try to get away. So I did. Get away that is. I've had very little formal training, but I broke away from this "black belt" effortlessly. Instantly. I wish I'd had a camera for the look on his face!
Then my wife did the same!
After the second class my wife asked me what I thought of the quality of instruction. Mind you, she's never had ANY training. She's never even watched a Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris movie. I mean she knows NOTHING about martial arts!
Instead of answering, I asked here what SHE thought.
"I wasn't impressed. They looked pretty sloppy to me."
They weren't.
They were PATHETIC.
<sigh> But there were the students, dutifully lined up, paying their money, thinking they were learning something useful.
The saddest part is, I think the instructors were completely sincere - they really thought they were good enough to be teaching.
Since this thread died I've taken my family to a school in Salt Lake (where we lived then) for a "free lesson" in kenpo. I'm not sure why, but the free lesson actually wound up being two sessions. Most of the second session was with a student instructor who was "ready to test for black belt".
During the first session with the head instructor (a really nice guy) he started to show us all some basic 'get away' moves, including breaking away from someone who had grabbed your wrist. He started by grabbing my wrist and telling me to try to get away. So I did. Get away that is. I've had very little formal training, but I broke away from this "black belt" effortlessly. Instantly. I wish I'd had a camera for the look on his face!
Then my wife did the same!
After the second class my wife asked me what I thought of the quality of instruction. Mind you, she's never had ANY training. She's never even watched a Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris movie. I mean she knows NOTHING about martial arts!
Instead of answering, I asked here what SHE thought.
"I wasn't impressed. They looked pretty sloppy to me."
They weren't.
They were PATHETIC.
<sigh> But there were the students, dutifully lined up, paying their money, thinking they were learning something useful.
The saddest part is, I think the instructors were completely sincere - they really thought they were good enough to be teaching.
I am a practitoner of "Bushido", I am a Yondan (4th Dan) in Aki-jujutsu, I have studied and am Sempai (senior student of Hanshi Sichidan (7th dan) Louis Garcia, who studied under various masters in europe and japan. One important master he studied under for 2 yrs in New york under Hachidan ( 8th dan) Yoshimitsu Yamada. My Sensai has mastered over 8 diffrent Martial ways in his 30 yrs of training and has passed alot of his knowledge to me and his son. I'm not a live in student but do train 5 days a week or more sometimes, and at least 2 hours a day, not including meditation times. As a true Martialist who has studied Battodo, bodo, Iado, Kendo, koryu budo, Jujutsu, aikido, karate-do, and portions of other Bushido ways, beside the fact that all striking arts have become comercial there are still some really good schools that focus more on the way than the art, more on spirituality than fighting, unless needed to defend yourself. I'm 22 yrs young 5'10 300lbs and have no problem performing any of my techniques, I just don't believe that you have to jump in the air or spin to be a great warrior, "jumping body, is a jumping spirit, and jumoing spirits causes unclear mind, causing warrior to fall" Musashi. So what i have to say to those unenlightened individuals is that not all schools are the same. 
To those that like to insult the heavy weight Black Belts or don't think that we are as good as the light wieghts, never under estimate your opponent, for he can destroy you with one blow and be faster than you no matter how big or small. 
Qaulity over Quantity most schools have any wear between 30+ students we have 8. It's not who can pay more or who has more, it's more like who will make this there way of life. Also a good percentage of founders of arts were heavy weights and a good percentage of the Old World Bushi were Heavy set as well. Another thing the mile I run it in under ten minutes. I also agree with Don's theory of being able to defend yourself from ten yards away.CarlosDJackal
New member
I had a co-worker once who was so proud that his little girl was a blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do. What really puzzled me was he and his wife voluntarily wasted their money on this endeavor and teh last I saw him back in1997, was still doing so. You see his daughter was all of 8 years old and had only been "training" just over a year!!
How anyone could award someone that young and inexperienced a blackbelt with a clear conscience is beyond me. I have a neice who did not earn her blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do (from a different instructor) until she was 16 - 9 full years after she started taking the training. And despite the fact her focus was forms (she won a slew of thropies for it), she was able to successfully use what she had learned in defending herself and her friends against multiple attackers a couple of times.
This is why I don't look down on any particular style. The quality of the Instructor(s) is probably the biggest determinant of how effective a particular style of martial art will be in most cases. I believe that even the most sport-oriented martial art can at least teach some basic skills to allow one to defend themselves against someone who has never had any training. JM2CW.
How anyone could award someone that young and inexperienced a blackbelt with a clear conscience is beyond me. I have a neice who did not earn her blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do (from a different instructor) until she was 16 - 9 full years after she started taking the training. And despite the fact her focus was forms (she won a slew of thropies for it), she was able to successfully use what she had learned in defending herself and her friends against multiple attackers a couple of times.
This is why I don't look down on any particular style. The quality of the Instructor(s) is probably the biggest determinant of how effective a particular style of martial art will be in most cases. I believe that even the most sport-oriented martial art can at least teach some basic skills to allow one to defend themselves against someone who has never had any training. JM2CW.
I've been in Judo - (pre-45 Kodokan, Traditional, "Combat")/Jujitsu (Traditional, "Combatives", "Sport"and Brazilian)/Sambo (Combat) for a bit and I always seek similar forms of study, but my Instructor/Coach Mark Tripp is very difficult to outdo.
Well, I went with a friend to a studio in Ann Arbor. Well, I was used to a fairly intensive form with a fair amount of randori or "free spar".
This place told me that they study and teach "Ninjitsu" and used pretty vague concepts of "fire", "water", "wind" and "earth" to transmit the philosophy of what it was they were trying to get across. Thinking they were into Aikido, I had no issues and got dressed in my Judo gi and wrestling shoes and began to warm up eventually putting in my mouthpiece and executing some break falls. I then asked my buddy to assist me on some judo drills and the class just stopped and watched slack-jawed. We were practicing approaches, setting the uke up to be thrown and stopping. We were joking and smiling in between the approaches, picking up the pace until we were working up a sweat and encouraging resistance before we executed the throw (uke allowing himself to be thrown).
The look on the "instructor's" faces pretty much said it all. They had no desire to attempt to teach us anything. They seemed to be afraid that what they taught was crap.
After some "tai chi" and zen-like moves during his class it was obvious that we were bored and my other buddy who invited me mentioned that both of us had done some competition and that I was more into "Combatives". Well, Mr. Sensei (who was only about 25 yrs old) asked how would we resist some of the front chokes and wrist grabs and whatnot so me and my fello Jujitsu/Sambo buddy began to simply tell him the theory of what we'd been taught - and enjoyed since we both trained together with Mark Tripp. One of the instructors frowned at much of what we were stating and asked if we could walk thru some of our methods so we obliged. I played uke and he was defending. Much of our defenses ended on the matt (but they didn't have to) and the Sensei asked to work himself in with what we were doing. The class had some difficulty because it was different, they weren't what I'd call serious about self-defense and they weren't particularly athletic, but some of the more aggressive personalities got into it.
Then comes Mr. Sensei II. He stated unequivocally that our techniques violate Martial Arts (emphasis on Arts). I told him that if one were to study the etymology of the word "Martial Arts" (i.e., Mars = God of War; Art = the creative, aesthetic application of science) he'd see that our interpretation of the concept was "somewhat playfully, practicing doing harm to another human body; after all it IS Self-Defense." He disagreed stating that his Zen Methodology "Ninjitsu" was more effective and more spiritual. I quickly obliged. He correctly perceived that we didn't agree. Now he missed the warm-up so he had no idea how we slow randori with the Brazilian ground work and what not so I imagine he saw two sweating newcomers wearing green and brown belts. So he asked us to be ukes. Okay.
NONE of his techniques worked. Not 25%. Not 10%. He finally asked me to show what we'd do. Now he has a black belt on so I incorrectly assume that maybe he knows a little something, but out of respect I walk him thru it and he resists to make me look like a fool. He then asks me to resist as he grabs my shoulder. I stiffen his arm and proceed to footsweep him and he steps away and I uchi mata him (holding him to a soft fall which he blows) then proceed to use some ground work skills on him while he resists futilely. I never applied any pain to him, I just took my time and applied a choke (medium hard) for about three seconds and let him up.
He was so disgusted that he wanted to "see" more. Knowing where things were going I declined. After the class he wished to know more so I handed him one of my Sensei's cards.
It was pathetic. Utterly pathetic. They knew nothing and were pulling the wool over every student's eyes. They wished to know what it was Dave and I were doing (but they had NO desire to train). Good Judo is difficult to find.
Well, I went with a friend to a studio in Ann Arbor. Well, I was used to a fairly intensive form with a fair amount of randori or "free spar".
This place told me that they study and teach "Ninjitsu" and used pretty vague concepts of "fire", "water", "wind" and "earth" to transmit the philosophy of what it was they were trying to get across. Thinking they were into Aikido, I had no issues and got dressed in my Judo gi and wrestling shoes and began to warm up eventually putting in my mouthpiece and executing some break falls. I then asked my buddy to assist me on some judo drills and the class just stopped and watched slack-jawed. We were practicing approaches, setting the uke up to be thrown and stopping. We were joking and smiling in between the approaches, picking up the pace until we were working up a sweat and encouraging resistance before we executed the throw (uke allowing himself to be thrown).
The look on the "instructor's" faces pretty much said it all. They had no desire to attempt to teach us anything. They seemed to be afraid that what they taught was crap.
After some "tai chi" and zen-like moves during his class it was obvious that we were bored and my other buddy who invited me mentioned that both of us had done some competition and that I was more into "Combatives". Well, Mr. Sensei (who was only about 25 yrs old) asked how would we resist some of the front chokes and wrist grabs and whatnot so me and my fello Jujitsu/Sambo buddy began to simply tell him the theory of what we'd been taught - and enjoyed since we both trained together with Mark Tripp. One of the instructors frowned at much of what we were stating and asked if we could walk thru some of our methods so we obliged. I played uke and he was defending. Much of our defenses ended on the matt (but they didn't have to) and the Sensei asked to work himself in with what we were doing. The class had some difficulty because it was different, they weren't what I'd call serious about self-defense and they weren't particularly athletic, but some of the more aggressive personalities got into it.
Then comes Mr. Sensei II. He stated unequivocally that our techniques violate Martial Arts (emphasis on Arts). I told him that if one were to study the etymology of the word "Martial Arts" (i.e., Mars = God of War; Art = the creative, aesthetic application of science) he'd see that our interpretation of the concept was "somewhat playfully, practicing doing harm to another human body; after all it IS Self-Defense." He disagreed stating that his Zen Methodology "Ninjitsu" was more effective and more spiritual. I quickly obliged. He correctly perceived that we didn't agree. Now he missed the warm-up so he had no idea how we slow randori with the Brazilian ground work and what not so I imagine he saw two sweating newcomers wearing green and brown belts. So he asked us to be ukes. Okay.
NONE of his techniques worked. Not 25%. Not 10%. He finally asked me to show what we'd do. Now he has a black belt on so I incorrectly assume that maybe he knows a little something, but out of respect I walk him thru it and he resists to make me look like a fool. He then asks me to resist as he grabs my shoulder. I stiffen his arm and proceed to footsweep him and he steps away and I uchi mata him (holding him to a soft fall which he blows) then proceed to use some ground work skills on him while he resists futilely. I never applied any pain to him, I just took my time and applied a choke (medium hard) for about three seconds and let him up.
He was so disgusted that he wanted to "see" more. Knowing where things were going I declined. After the class he wished to know more so I handed him one of my Sensei's cards.
It was pathetic. Utterly pathetic. They knew nothing and were pulling the wool over every student's eyes. They wished to know what it was Dave and I were doing (but they had NO desire to train). Good Judo is difficult to find.
Exactly. The internationally known instructor I mentioned earlier created this idea, which is a gross simplification of the school. He has now gone on to "improve" the system, which should be easy for him to do, since he studied it for 20 years, and the ryu are only 500 to 1,000 years old.
You were cheated- if you'd been in Bud Malstrom or John Orth's class, you'd have gotten some good training, though we don't prefer ground fighting.
John
My KM instructor is 100% lean muscle, a good teacher, scary fast, with all the control in the world. I would actually be frightened in a physical fight, because there's nothing I could do to stop the butt-stomping about to commence. He's thrown some full speed strikes at me, I'd manage to maybe get a feeble quick block in but the next dozen are going to really hurt.
He wants you to learn it all.
He'll nag you to go 4 times a week instead of 3. (He charges by the month, not class). You skip a couple, he'll single you out for extra work. He'll ask you why you aren't going to a higher level class.
He pushes you to improve.
He also does the unarmed vs armed stuff, of course.
And he's a nice guy. A little stand-offish, but always polite.
Anyone in Vegas, It's the KM place on W. Sahara.
He wants you to learn it all.
He'll nag you to go 4 times a week instead of 3. (He charges by the month, not class). You skip a couple, he'll single you out for extra work. He'll ask you why you aren't going to a higher level class.
He pushes you to improve.
He also does the unarmed vs armed stuff, of course.
And he's a nice guy. A little stand-offish, but always polite.
Anyone in Vegas, It's the KM place on W. Sahara.
Judas is my Homeboy
Inactive
My favorite story was from a BJJ studio here in Las Vegas. I called ahead and described my interest in learning a new art. I had taken some TKD as a child, but lost interest quickly. I was invited to observe a class and was very interested in the art. The instructor was very knowledgable on the techniques and was coaching and sparring with a student. He explained what the student did wrong and worked slowly to correct and engrain the proper technique. I was impressed with his knowledge and thoroughness.
The problem came later, when I got to talk to him and ask some questions. He explained that most fights end up on the ground and how he aimed to get the fight there as soon as possible. When I asked about strikes and defending against them...all he said was "we don't worry about that here."
Defense against getting hit seems like an important factor in a fight. I don't see how you could not worry about it. Needless to say, I didn't begin training there.
DaveAA, I'm very interested in the KM school on Sahara. This sounds like the training I've been looking for. Thanks for the description.
The problem came later, when I got to talk to him and ask some questions. He explained that most fights end up on the ground and how he aimed to get the fight there as soon as possible. When I asked about strikes and defending against them...all he said was "we don't worry about that here."
Defense against getting hit seems like an important factor in a fight. I don't see how you could not worry about it. Needless to say, I didn't begin training there.
DaveAA, I'm very interested in the KM school on Sahara. This sounds like the training I've been looking for. Thanks for the description.
The Antibubba
New member
Super Mario!
In college, I signed up for a Fencing class. On the first night, I met the instructor. He looked like Luigi from Super Mario Brothers-Short, pear-shaped, mustacioed, and balding, with an Italian accent. He did not appear very impressive.
Then we watched him demonstrate with one of his senior students, who was trying to playfully goad him into "giving it everything". He did.
Turns out that, although this guy worked at the mearby AFB as an engineer, he had been on the Italian Olympic Team in the '60s, and had won a Bronze medal at the '64 games, and a Gold at the International games in '62. I have never seen anyone. at any age, who moved faster, and with more apparent ease, than that man.
I took Fencing for many years with him, until I graduated. If someone had ever told me that I'd had one thousandth of his talent, I would have been honored.
In college, I signed up for a Fencing class. On the first night, I met the instructor. He looked like Luigi from Super Mario Brothers-Short, pear-shaped, mustacioed, and balding, with an Italian accent. He did not appear very impressive.
Then we watched him demonstrate with one of his senior students, who was trying to playfully goad him into "giving it everything". He did.
Turns out that, although this guy worked at the mearby AFB as an engineer, he had been on the Italian Olympic Team in the '60s, and had won a Bronze medal at the '64 games, and a Gold at the International games in '62. I have never seen anyone. at any age, who moved faster, and with more apparent ease, than that man.
I took Fencing for many years with him, until I graduated. If someone had ever told me that I'd had one thousandth of his talent, I would have been honored.