Bad habit = ND

By using and having the shooter PULL the TRIGGER there is NO question as to the gun being unloaded/safe/having an empty chamber
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Exactly. A decocker does not prove the chamber is clear, pulling the trigger does.

And to clarify, when I say I triple check a gun at home, I remove the mag, open the action, visually check clear, check the mag well and chamber with my fingers, then close the action, aim the gun at a stack of concrete bags in my garage, and drop the hammer by pulling the trigger.
 
By using and having the shooter PULL the TRIGGER there is NO question as to the gun being unloaded/safe/having an empty chamber
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I don't understand this mindset. Pulling the trigger on a "known empty" gun, and ingraining that habit into your gun handling is an accident waiting to happen.

It's what just happened to the OP.

What is this maniacal need to pull the trigger? Is it that that you "doubt" it is empty until the trigger is pulled? If you doubt it, why not check it again?

So what if the gun is loaded as it goes home in the range bag? If you are obeying the rules you will catch it the next time you handle the gun. Pulling the trigger when it's "doubtful" its loaded will guarantee an ND.
 
my hunting safety instructor once took a 22 clear apart and cleaned it and put it all back together and "dry fired" it to check function. BANG!"

It's just not good to ever pull the trigger in the house, but if you have to dry fire something you have to have that lucid calm moment of opening the action and checking both magazine, and chamber to clearly know its empty. And dry firing should never be a part of your manual of arms or procedure for storage or packing.

And I never have gotten into the habit of pulling a trigger to be sure something is empty. Thats just tempting fate. I have seen what happen when a 22 was pointed at a young girl not 5 feet from me. (possible accident) Don't want to see it again.
 
Not necessarily a bad idea to "pinkie" the chamber or use a small flashlight, which some of our ROs would do, due to the less-than-perfect lighting in our indoor league's range. Bolt action rifles chambers are particularly hard to check.

Hey, I've dry fired tens of thousands of times. But I always tried to make certain that the gun was clear, and the ammo was somewhere else while I did it.

I kinda have a hard time understanding some peoples choices with regard to how they handle and store their guns. Yes, I have a loaded HD gun. The rest are locked up, unloaded, separate from the ammo. Working around them every day, and having supposedly "empty" guns thrust into your hands over and over tends to give you a different perspective, I suppose.
 
Well, I own a Glock and a revolver.

With the revolver, I feel quite safe. I open the cylinder and look everytime I pick up the gun. May seem like overkill, but I prefer to ingrain that into my behaviour as much as possible.

Now with my Glock, it is a different story.
These are my first guns and so the habits I form here are the ones that I will no doubt maintain.

As I was taught for my licence practical assessment, I:
remove the mag,
draw back slide,
check chamber and magwell,
let slide return,
point down range and dry-fire.

That was on a Makarov PM. I do the same with my Glock.

Is this then wrong?

The only way to take the tension out of the trigger, on a Glock, once you've done a chamber check is to pull the trigger. If I don't do that, I can't disassemble either.

Am I doing it correctly?

PS: no hijack intended. I hope others agree that this is relevant.
 
A thorough unloading procedure for a typical autopistol is:
  • If the design allows it, place the gun on safe.
  • Remove the the magazine.
  • Unload the magazine.
  • Rack the slide a couple of times. Some designs require that you take the gun off safe to perform this step.
  • Lock the slide back. Some guns require that you insert an EMPTY magazine to perform this step. If so, lock the slide back using an EMPTY magazine and then remove the magazine.
  • Visually inspect the chamber, preferably using a light.
  • Manually inspect the chamber, using a finger to verify that the chamber is empty.
The gun is now unloaded and ready for disassembly.

If you don't wish to disassemble the gun, you can let the slide go forward and drop the hammer if you wish at this point; HOWEVER, if you set the gun down with the slide forward, it is now no longer unloaded and you must repeat the unloading process if you pick it back up again.
 
I don't understand this mindset. Pulling the trigger on a "known empty" gun, and ingraining that habit into your gun handling is an accident waiting to happen.
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It's not an accident/negligence as long as you point it in a safe direction.

And I never have gotten into the habit of pulling a trigger to be sure something is empty. Thats just tempting fate. I have seen what happen when a 22 was pointed at a young girl not 5 feet from me. (possible accident) Don't want to see it again.
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"Fate" doesn't have a thing to do with it. Pointing a gun in someone's direction and pulling the trigger is not fate. It's stupidity. Pointed at a young girl is NOT a safe direction. :mad:
 
A Wise Old Army Sergeant once told me "The hardest thing to break is a bad habit." IMHO the old Army practice of rodding one's firearms after a range session is a good habit to develop. And the old pinkie in the chamber IS a Good Idea.
 
I don't understand this mindset. Pulling the trigger on a "known empty" gun, and ingraining that habit into your gun handling is an accident waiting to happen.
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It's not an accident/negligence as long as you point it in a safe direction.
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Well, yeah. If you can find a "safe direction" and are paying attention. Which way is "downrange" in your house? That's the point. If you ingrain this TTP into your gun handling you are going to do it without thinking. Someday, it might surprise you. Please think seriously about it.

For me, I'll just change the TTP so I don't pull the trigger to check if the gun is empty. Carry on.

EDIT: I guess the point I am trying to make is this; if you don't pull the trigger, you can't have an ND (barring mechanical failure). If you are pulling the trigger, the potential for an ND exists.
 
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Well, yeah. If you can find a "safe direction" and are paying attention.
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If you're not paying attention, you shouldn't have a gun in your hand. If you are handling a gun, it should ALWAYS be pointed in a safe direction. :)

Which way is "downrange" in your house? That's the point.
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At my house, I'd say a safe direction would be toward the floor at an angle away from people. Some would argue a safer direction is up. I could see that. It's definitely not toward people. And not toward my computer. I use that for important business like arguing with people on the internet. :D
 
I use that for important business like arguing with people on the internet.
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'Touche. :) And the OP says "Ouch". :)

By the way Wayne, all of the Glocks in my safe are cocked because I'm not pulling triggers. If I think they are not empty (which I always assume), I open them up to look.

I mean, they often stay cocked for months loaded, why do they suddenly need to be uncocked when empty?

I still don't understand your argument though. Someday, sometime, you are going to be in a hurry, tired, etc. You might pull a trigger thinking your gun is empty when it's not. I'm not going to do that because I having been training myself not to do it.

I'm not saying you are unsafe, just that it's something to think about.

EDIT: Under the auspices of a match, I can see making an exception as part of the rules of the match. At that point we have a clear "downrange".
 
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Someday, sometime, you are going to be in a hurry, tired, etc. You might pull a trigger thinking your gun is empty when it's not.
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And in the off chance it happens, even though I have checked it visually and manually, the gun will be pointed in a safe direction, and no one will get hurt. I do sincerely appreciate your concern, though.

By the way Wayne, all of the Glocks in my safe are cocked because I'm not pulling triggers. If I think they are not empty (which I always assume), I open them up to look.
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I don't like putting anything in safe cocked, because if I was "tired" or "in a hurry" or just didn't see the round, and accidentally left a round in a gun, the trigger could snag on something and fire the gun.

If you feel safer the other way, to each his own.
 
I don't like putting anything in safe cocked, because if I was "tired" or "in a hurry" or just didn't see the round, and accidentally left a round in a gun, the trigger could snag on something and fire the gun.
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And this is the crux of the matter I think. We are loath to put a gun away if it is "cocked" because we associate that with "dangerous". However, if you never pull a trigger in the gun safe room what is the danger? Snagging a trigger? When has that EVER happened to you?

What are the statistics that you will pull a trigger on a loaded gun versus snagging the trigger on one that is loaded? I think the answer is clear. YMMV if your gun room or your gun safe is cluttered.
 
I'm going to bet everything I own right now, that the #1 all time reason that firearms have fired is from pulling the trigger.

Trigger Trap

I know everyone around here all ready knows everything and there is no way they could have an AD. Read the article anyway, you might suprise yourselves and learn something new.
 
Now dog gone it Nate. That is a good article (and it supports my position) but you are starting to sound like a shill for SWAT. :)
 
I know everyone around here all ready knows everything and there is no way they could have an AD. Read the article anyway, you might suprise yourselves and learn something new.
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I read the article. I know I can have an AD. I also know that with the gun pointed in a safe direction, into a safe backstop, the only thing damaged is my ego.

For my particular situation, when I assess the risk, I see a higher risk of an accident taking the gun out of the safe, putting the gun in the safe, working on the gun, etc. I see very little risk of me sitting on a couch with friends, pointing a gun at my hand, and pulling the trigger. It's not going to happen. That "habit" is not engrained into my subconscious. Pointing the gun at a safe backstop and pulling the trigger when I unload a gun to put it away is.

If you assess your situation and come up with a different assessment, feel free to do whatever you see fit.
 
I'm don't know you personally wayneinFL, but just going by your writings in this thread, I'm fairly certain that you are careful and safe handling firearms.

Its difficult for any of us to encapsulate our personal experiences and gun handling knowledge in a few, or more less a single internet forum post. Its also difficult to express our true tone and sentiment. I'm not trying to portray myself as all knowing, or a prohpet of great wisdom preaching ultimate truth.

What I am doing, is trying to convey the simple idea, that in the very vast majority of instances, NDs happen when someone pulls the trigger.
 
OK, so just to point this out, which I'm sure everyone knows, different pistols operate quite differently. Here are a few examples, top to bottom:

001-1.jpg


CZ .380 SAO: Cannot lock slide back, does not lock on empty mag, must have mag in to fire, no decocker

S&W 459 9mm SA/DA: Can lock slide back, locks on empty mag, must have mag in to fire, decocker

Ruger Mark II .22 LR SA: Can lock bolt back, locks on empty mag, fires without mag in

Hk VP70Z 9mm DAO: Cannot lock slide back, does not lock on empty mag, fires without mag in

Davis P-.380 SA: Cannot lock slide back, does not lock on empty mag, fires without mag in

Some of the basics apply to all of them: Remove mag, rack slide several times. The visual check can also be done, but how are you going to "pinkie check" a chamber when the slide is going to return to battery on your finger? I have big hands and even my pinkie may not fit tight enough to really check the chamber on a smaller pistol. A wooden dowels or even a straw can be inserted in the muzzle and pushed back to show the chamber clear. I know the straws we get with iced coffee from Dunkin Donuts are a fairly bright orange, or the dowels can be painted any florescent color (orange or green come to mind) for better visability at the chamber end.
 
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I guess I don't understand DaddyCat. Are you saying that because you can't tell if the gun is empty any other way, that the best way is to pull the trigger? I'm not saying that is the wrong way in certain circumstances. What I am saying is that if you make it a habit in your gun handling, someday it may surprise you when you aren't expecting it to.
 
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