"To err is human...". Good thing other basics in gun safety are ingrained in you, like where you pointed your gun to drop the hammer. I myself never leave an unloaded weapon cocked and will double chk before pulling the trigger with the gun pointed at the floor. I am a firm believer in Murphy's law.
Bad habit = ND
- Thread starter jim8115
- Start date
Here is a link to the article I referenced in post 18: http://digital.swatmag.com/SWAT/2011/SWAT1109/?Page=53.
Well, on the one hand, I've been pleasantly surprised. Nobody has attacked the OP in this thread. Not that they should, just that based on similar, past threads, that has seemed to happen more often than not.
Unfortunately, I find myself in the position of having to throw out a bit of criticism, that I hope will be viewed as constructive. It's not so much for the OP, but for a few other posters.
Some people have been saying that the OP, by virtue of having followed at least one of the four rules (about where the weapon was pointed) avoided greater tragedy. Please note that the OP never claimed that, and I am not picking on him in part because he never did claim that. His mea culpa was plain and clear.
But for those people who say he did a good job of pointing his weapon in a safe direction... He shot a chair and a laptop. I assume the afghan he shot was on the chair. He then ran around a wall to check on his wife.
The way I read that, he wasn't sure where he had put the bullet, and had to make sure nobody was hurt. And he shot a chair that would appear to have been near a laptop. Which could mean a chair where somebody might have sat and used a laptop.
So it doesn't read to me like any of the four rules were followed; the OP got very lucky. I know of a case earlier this year where a man killed his wife in very similar circumstances, with a shot through his office wall that hit the wife in their bedroom.
Unfortunately, I find myself in the position of having to throw out a bit of criticism, that I hope will be viewed as constructive. It's not so much for the OP, but for a few other posters.
Some people have been saying that the OP, by virtue of having followed at least one of the four rules (about where the weapon was pointed) avoided greater tragedy. Please note that the OP never claimed that, and I am not picking on him in part because he never did claim that. His mea culpa was plain and clear.
But for those people who say he did a good job of pointing his weapon in a safe direction... He shot a chair and a laptop. I assume the afghan he shot was on the chair. He then ran around a wall to check on his wife.
The way I read that, he wasn't sure where he had put the bullet, and had to make sure nobody was hurt. And he shot a chair that would appear to have been near a laptop. Which could mean a chair where somebody might have sat and used a laptop.
So it doesn't read to me like any of the four rules were followed; the OP got very lucky. I know of a case earlier this year where a man killed his wife in very similar circumstances, with a shot through his office wall that hit the wife in their bedroom.
Nate45;
I did some searching but didn't come up with the text i was looking for but did find my old post from Dec. 2006, http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232743
I did some searching but didn't come up with the text i was looking for but did find my old post from Dec. 2006, http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232743
Gbro
Thanks, for the link.
That is a good example of how easy a ND can happen. Dr. Death thought the revolver was unloaded. Thats how a lot of them happen, but as we now know, all firearms are loaded all the time.
In fact mine actually are loaded, every single one of them. That way if I don't obey the four rules...
Thanks, for the link.
That is a good example of how easy a ND can happen. Dr. Death thought the revolver was unloaded. Thats how a lot of them happen, but as we now know, all firearms are loaded all the time.
In fact mine actually are loaded, every single one of them. That way if I don't obey the four rules...
S_Constitutionist
New member
I'm glad you and those around you are safe, OP. It takes courage to admit a mistake.
I have always held that the "drop hammer and show clear" test makes no logical sense... Not necessarily because of this situation, but because a pulled trigger is ALWAYS more dangerous than a gun safely in its holster. Of course, I have to live by the rules when it comes to IDPA and what not, but its still silly IMO. Especially silly is that it is only required for guns with a visible hammer (Hi Power, 1911, CZ75 SA, etc). Decockers are allowed. Just plain ignorance.
A visual and tactile inspection (not to mention a double check) is always necessary.
I have always held that the "drop hammer and show clear" test makes no logical sense... Not necessarily because of this situation, but because a pulled trigger is ALWAYS more dangerous than a gun safely in its holster. Of course, I have to live by the rules when it comes to IDPA and what not, but its still silly IMO. Especially silly is that it is only required for guns with a visible hammer (Hi Power, 1911, CZ75 SA, etc). Decockers are allowed. Just plain ignorance.
A visual and tactile inspection (not to mention a double check) is always necessary.
Bud Helms said:
That was a very good article Mr. Helms, everyone should read it twice.
I realize though that many won't take the time to read the article. Below is the unloading procedure that article recommends.
Notice nowhere in the recommendation does it mention pressing the trigger. Again, read the article, it is very informative and might very possibly save someone from an ND.
thedaddycat
New member
I have to tell you, I have a S&W 459 with a decocker and I won't even decock it without pointing it in a safe direction. As I see it, it's a mechanical device and though highly unlikely, it does have the potential to have a mechanical failure. Revolvers are a whole different animal. Once cocked you have to manually lower the hammer on a live round and hope your thumb does not slip off the hammer. The newer transfer bar safety designs are better than the old ones without... but one of my rules is NEVER TRUST THE SAFETY!!
From an accademic standpoint, what ammo was in the pistol and what kind of penetration did it have? This is real-world data for when discussing home defense and ammo selection. It brings sharply into focus the risks associated with a DGU inside a structure.
From an accademic standpoint, what ammo was in the pistol and what kind of penetration did it have? This is real-world data for when discussing home defense and ammo selection. It brings sharply into focus the risks associated with a DGU inside a structure.
The "drop hammer" part can't be taken out of context. We do it in USPSA in a range with a backstop right there. If you chose to do it at home...well, where might that bullet go? ..at a match you have the RO's second set of eyes making sure you're not about to make a mistake.
In my time shooting action matches I've seen some close calls. I've seen shooters short stroke a gun on clearing and leave the round dangling under the extractor. I've seen a new shooter using a Sig 220 drop the hammer via the decocker and later an RO went out and found him, brought him back into the range and re-cleared him, and yes, there was alive round in the chamber.
Ultimately, for most of us, there won't be an RO looking over your shoulder. BE that RO. Second guess yourself. Check again. Clear and show clear.
In my time shooting action matches I've seen some close calls. I've seen shooters short stroke a gun on clearing and leave the round dangling under the extractor. I've seen a new shooter using a Sig 220 drop the hammer via the decocker and later an RO went out and found him, brought him back into the range and re-cleared him, and yes, there was alive round in the chamber.
Ultimately, for most of us, there won't be an RO looking over your shoulder. BE that RO. Second guess yourself. Check again. Clear and show clear.
"From an accademic standpoint, what ammo was in the pistol and what kind of penetration did it have? This is real-world data for when discussing home defense and ammo selection. It brings sharply into focus the risks associated with a DGU inside a structure. "
180 Grain XTP, 5.5 Grains Unique. Not a hot load by any means, probably 900 FPS or so.
The laptop had an external monitor plugged into it. It hit the external monitor plug at a slight front to back, and up to down angle, from parralel with the cord that goes into the plug. In other words just off head on.
It then went through a book on the table, seems to have angled back up, and hit a chair with a thick , folded afghan draped over the back. that is where it stopped.Those plugs are metal inside, and it seems to have fragmented the hollow point bullet pretty bad, maybe dissapated some of the energy.The plug, was, of course destoyed as well as the sideplate of the laptop, and the motherboard.What was left of the bullet weighed about 130 Grains
180 Grain XTP, 5.5 Grains Unique. Not a hot load by any means, probably 900 FPS or so.
The laptop had an external monitor plugged into it. It hit the external monitor plug at a slight front to back, and up to down angle, from parralel with the cord that goes into the plug. In other words just off head on.
It then went through a book on the table, seems to have angled back up, and hit a chair with a thick , folded afghan draped over the back. that is where it stopped.Those plugs are metal inside, and it seems to have fragmented the hollow point bullet pretty bad, maybe dissapated some of the energy.The plug, was, of course destoyed as well as the sideplate of the laptop, and the motherboard.What was left of the bullet weighed about 130 Grains
I've never shot at an IDPA or USPSA club that allowed you to decock a DA pistol with a decocker after you've showed clear. I agree, that's dumb.
But IMO, it's safer to drop the hammer on every gun, pointed at the berm, than it is to take the chance on someone working on a loaded gun in the safe area. Or bagging it in a range bag. Or keeping it in safe. etc., etc.
We had one at a night match with a shotgun. Black 12 gauge shells are hard to see in the dark. Both the RO and shooter looked in the ejection port and thought it was clear. They were both caught off guard when the shooter pulled the trigger and the gun went bang instead of click. The result is that the gun was in a safe direction when it fired unexpectedly. It didn't happen in the case in back of his car. Or at home.
I may be the lone voice here, but I drop the hammer on a gun -with it pointed in a safe direction- as a third check to see if the gun is unloaded before I start working on it, or before I put it in the safe. And I don't consider it to be a bad habit. Of course, I aim it at something I would normally feel safe shooting. I don't aim it at my computer.
Just another step in the safety process.
Unload and show clear
Slide Down or Cylinder Closed
Hammer Down "Hypothetical situation" Both shooter and SO miss the round in the chamber. Using the decocker still leaves the gun HOT Holster
Range is Safe
By using and having the shooter PULL the TRIGGER there is NO question as to the gun being unloaded/safe/having an empty chamber
Racking the slide and then dryfiring is in itself not the problem, a pretty standard "unload and show clear" in the IPSC world. The problem was more in doing it in an unsafe area. I do similar at home but I am pretty paranoid, I will verify visually that I removed the mag, visual chamber check, usually rack it once or twice, then dryfire it in and area I already considered the items that could be impacted.
Glad everyone is okay.
Glad everyone is okay.
Andrewsmith1
New member
I had a similar thing happen a few years ago with a pump action shotgun. I got home from hunting and was cold, wet, and tired. I was unloading the gun in my garage to clean it and didn't rack the last round out of the chamber. I pointed the gun at the floor to drop the hammer and it went off. It was loaded with with birdshot and I didn't get hurt, but it sure was loud and I have always triple checked my guns to make sure they were cleared before pulling the trigger. I also always unload before leaving for home. I am sure the sound of a .12 gauge going off in the middle of town drew a little attention.
I know you don't need a lecture right now, but to clarify---your weapon wasn't cleared if you didn't inspect the chamber. Either visually, or or with a finger (or both). After doing that, it's proper to point gun down range and pull the trigger--then your weapon is cleared.