Bad Decision!

Doublea A said:
The woman with her baby was not very smart at all. Once the bad guy came in demanding $$$$$ she should have removed herself and the baby out of the area. Instead she was standing there knowing that a robbery was standing place.
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She was probably standing there in shock and disbelief.

I fail to see the point of attacking the woman with the baby as "not very smart," "idiotic," etc. A couple of thoughts: first, in the sequence shown on the video, it takes, what, two or three seconds from the time the suspect appears until the woman starts to move, which she does when the clerk's gun comes out and he starts shooting. Also, we don't know what was said: if a man with a gun comes up to the average person and says something like "Nobody move! Give me the money!" I think the average, untrained, unarmed person will comply. And most of the time (not all, but most), this would be an OK choice: the robber is after money, and will leave when he has what he wants. (Note, however, what I said in a previous post: given that woman was within easy grabbing range of the suspect, I do think the clerk was right to draw and shoot.)

Even with training, people often freeze in an emergency; it's not reasonable to expect an untrained person to react instantly and correctly in such situations. Calling such people idiots is a particularly unattractive form of armchair quarterbacking.
 
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That was close. I've seen this vid a few times. It's a good vid. The way I see it is that he was involved in the idea and practice of carry. He was quick to draw, he had a good load and firearm, he was very aware and involved.

I can say this. It was appropriate for a confident civilian (as close as you wana get). Don't forget.... The trained professionals are happy to cut even more corners....................
 
The woman with her baby was not very smart at all. Once the bad guy came in demanding $$$$$ she should have removed herself and the baby out of the area. Instead she was standing there knowing that a robbery was standing place.
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Funny how the victims get accused here, but the bad guy robber is the only one getting shot. First the OP says the clerk is wrong for his self defense act. Now the mother isn't very smart. Sheesh.
 
I don't see anything different he could have done. After all the other guy already had the draw on him so stepping further would have been lethal to the defender. It is true, we don't know what the bad guy said, but I would hope that I would have the presence of mind to slowly move away from the BG is I was holding my kid in that position. There is already one gun placed ready for action. Self defense goes beyond responding with deadly force, and since this entire thread is Monday morning quarterbacking, why not talk about everyone's actions.

Isn't that the entire purpose of discussing each situation presented for review. Well, review away so we can all learn, not sure why folks gets so emotionally attached to one view or another. Since most of us do carry, this is a worthwhile exercise that helps with our own mental preparation. If you don't consider scenarios and alternative actions, you WON'T react with alternative reactions once the situation begins. The time to dissect these events is here and now.

I would hope folks continue to openly dissect each case and leave the emotions at home. I suspect we all understand being frozen by shock, but what if that is your wife and child in the same situation, you need to teach them to have the presence of mind to MOVE AWAY and have that engrained in their minds. I see nothing wrong therefore to dissect away each and every aspect of this shooting.
 
Alaska444 said:
...since this entire thread is Monday morning quarterbacking, why not talk about everyone's actions.
<snip>
I see nothing wrong therefore to dissect away each and every aspect of this shooting.
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I entirely agree. But it isn't useful to call someone an idiot for not doing what we (who were not there) think she should have done -- it only detracts from the discussion. As Double Naught Spy correctly points out, it's a form of blaming the victim, and folks here should know better than to do that.
 
He was in a Weaver stance, with his weak side foot in front, and he was doing a stutter step to maintain the Weaver stance while he advanced and pulled back. Notice that his feet never cross each other, and he's never off-balance or out of a good firing position.

Could you not walk normally and not be off balance people do it every day. Then again it might start a new dance craze the weaver dance.
 
It could, we should get it out there as a Training Technique. The Weaver Dance-- After a SD shoot are you stressed out to the max? Yes. Do you need a way to calm yourself while keeping an eye on the downed suspect. YES! Well try The Weaver Dance for $5.99 we will send you a CD on how to keep your weaver stance and dance off that adrenaline. :D
 
Yes I could look after the UK end of the business. The weaver stance is something I have been trying at the range but I haven't tried the dance yet. Might try it on Saturday to see what reaction i get. :)
 
LOL... O man I would love to see their faces if you really did that. Especially if you explained it as a Tactically Sound method... lol, hypothetically of course. :)
 
Looks like a great job by the clerk to me...

The robber was obviously willing to shoot somebody and the clerk reacted quickly and effectively and likely saved his life as well as everyone else that was in the room. I read somewhere on this thread about no follow through on his last shot?lol are you serious?! hes not shooting paper targets at the local range. hes exchanging fire with a live target that is shooting back. im sorry... but as much as everybody likes to think they are the next harry callahan... they arent. this guy could not have performed any better. end of story
 
Good job. The mother moves instantly when the clerk brings his gun up. Good reflexes...she didnt freeze. I think he took a calculated risk rather than surrendered to tunnel vision...he hit the guy all three times on the move and he was moving laterally to the right to take the mother/child out of the line of fire. Good work sir. I'm sorry you have to live with that now, but heeluva good job and great shooting.
 
Lots of us have talked about "... what I would have liked..." or "... IF..." but frankly, that is not the point. Real life situations are NOT perfect, and this clerk did a downright amazing job in a tight spot. Questioning his tactics should be personal for yourself: "AM I GOOD ENOUGH TO DO THIS?" should be our mantra. To the clerk, "Thank you for your defense of self and others," is all I want to say.
 
To clear up one issue. Some have said that they would not shoot for a property crime. I agree. Property crime is I see someone stealing my car. I call PD and am a good witness. Armed robbery implies threat of death and thus one is 100% justified in use of deadly force to cease thus threat to you or others.

This is a very important point sone in this thread have blurred.

I also think the idea of sizing up the situation to see if the bg is "really" homocidal before deciding to act may be fatal. There are tons if folks dead and burried who complied with armed robbers, only to be eliminated from the witness pool or shot for bragging rights. Personally I think the biggest question is tactical. How can I best end this threat to my life, hoping it will go away is not an option.
 
RsqVet
Senior Member

Join Date: February 20, 2005
Posts: 1,953
To clear up one issue. Some have said that they would not shoot for a property crime. I agree. Property crime is I see someone stealing my car. I call PD and am a good witness. Armed robbery implies threat of death and thus one is 100% justified in use of deadly force to cease thus threat to you or others.

This is a very important point sone in this thread have blurred.

I also think the idea of sizing up the situation to see if the bg is "really" homocidal before deciding to act may be fatal. There are tons if folks dead and burried who complied with armed robbers, only to be eliminated from the witness pool or shot for bragging rights. Personally I think the biggest question is tactical. How can I best end this threat to my life, hoping it will go away is not an option.
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+1, if the bad guy has threatened you with death or serious bodily harm, they have chosen their own course and their own destiny if they have accosted an armed CCW holder. You do have the right to self defense in almost every territory of this country, some more than others, but self defense is a legitimate legal standard in every state. Some have a higher level of proof than others, some have excellent castle doctrines that apply to a person's car as well, many don't.
 
I have carried for well over 40 years, both professionally and personally. Drawing my gun has and always will be a last resort. To use a gun to prevent a theft off a few bucks or even a car is not a viable option for me. It is why I pay for insurance. If someone draws a gun on me, however, my life is in immediate danger. I don't know if the other guy will never shoot or if he is a hopped up junkie who will pull the trigger without provocation.

I say kudos to the clerk for being fast and accurate. I think I would have done the same thing. Not only was the child out of the line of fire but think if the BG decided to open up for no other reason other than to leave no witnesses, the child would have been a goner.

The only thing I may have done different would have been to go out the door and get the BG. Once someone pulls a gun on me, I go from defensive to offensive. I want to eliminate the threat. In this particular scenario, the
BG could have gone outside to his car, reloaded and come back in. I would have stopped that from happening. That is not to say I fault the clerk for what he did, which in this case was be at the ready to protect the people behind the counter.
 
45 gunner/

Going from a well lit inside Office, to poorer lighting, outside? And maybe a partner/getaway driver, not me.

B/G outside, lying, dieing, me back lit, no Sir!
 
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