Bad advice from military/law enforcement...

Status
Not open for further replies.
I am of the mind that any training is better than no training at all. I believe that an individual who sit's down and do some research will come up with training that will make him a better shooter, and better prepared to handle a life and death situation.

If a group did the same thing the results would be the same, but better. As people who have taken the initiative to purchase a firearm as a commitment to self preservation. I'm sure that same person is capable of reading some material, and talking to others... then coming up with a training scenario relivent to their needs. Excluding nut jobs... most people can fend for themselves. Again I'm not suggesting that anyone imagine they could come up with anything near what a professional dedicated trainer would produce... ANY TRAINING IS BETTER THAN NONE AT ALL.
 
drail... Sir

As it happens I have spent quite a bit of time on police ranges. As well a lot of time on civilian ranges. IN MY EXPERIENCE... the safety violations on either were very rare, and continue to be rare. I'm sure that there are some departments out there with some inherent issues... Just as there must be civilian ranges with similar issues.

The Police absoloutly recieve more, and better training than the average shooter....
Click to expand...
I agree, especially when police training satisfies POST standards.

And around here, most private citizens I see at public ranges have received virtually no proper training -- and that is reflected in their atrocious gun handling and abysmal marksmanship.
 
Jason; "quiet professional"...

I disagree with part of Jason's remarks, "calling people on their BS" is the fastest way to lose your concealed carry license or gun permit.
When you have a concealed carry license, you've shown to the govt agency that issued it, that you are a mature, rational adult who has no criminal records & can safely carry a concealed firearm in public. If you can't control your temper or get into disputes with strangers quickly, I would not be carrying a loaded gun around.
The US special operations community has a term for it; it's called being a quiet professional. ;)
Author, sworn LE officer & legal expert Massad Ayoob wrote about the same topic in his non fiction book; In the Gravest Extreme.
Ayoob points out that carrying a weapon is a big responsibility & you will be accountable for your statements & actions. The recent Zimmerman/Martin case is a good example. News reports say FBI agents have interviewed several of George Zimmerman's friends, co-workers, etc.

Clyde
 
I don't think you read my entire post. There is no reason to lose your temper. There is no reason to start a fight. There is plenty of reason to say hey what you did back there is very dangerous and I would appreciate if you were more careful especially around motorcycles as we are extremely vulnerable.

I further said that while I disagreed with the gentlemen in ALshooters post on his tactics. I agreed with his sentiment. While I'm glad you can quote books that you have read. I have lived it. You should never start a fight with anyone regardless of whether you are carrying or not. If it starts to go bad just walk away. It has much to do with knowing people and when you can call them on BS and when you just need to call the police or when you need to defend yourself with force. If you can not tell the difference then you should not be carrying a gun. If you can not control yourself and your temper I agree you should not be carrying a gun. If you can not resolve conflicts with out violence or walking away you should not be carrying a gun. Being polite goes a long ways. Ignoring someone doing something that is going to someday get someone killed is just absurd.
 
Talked to the Sniper teams from a variety of City and County Law Enforcement Departments earlier this year out at the range at Van Meter, Iowa with their rifles, mostly scoped Remington 700's.

I have been Honored to know many Good Men and Women in Law Enforcement and the Military, most of them knew what they were talking about.

I have gotten bad advice mostly from the General Public.
 
I was a bit embarrassed to realize after I got out of the MC that there was so much about firearms I didn't know. I have always had the interest, so I think I was quite good on the weapons we used, but most of them are way to expensive / regulated to be likely to come up in the civilian world. There was this terrible moment where I wanted to shoot an FAL and had a to get someone else to show me where the sights were...
Since then, I have spent most of my time correcting my deficiencies. Still, I think I'm confident enough to know what I know, and what I don't. The problem with the military is that you can become an expert, but on exactly one or two weapons, and little else.

PS, it's really tough to admit that particular dumb ass mistake. Hmmm... Thread topic idea... Worst firearms mistakes. We've all had a few.
 
There are many LEO's who have no interest in guns, yet are proficient in the use of thier duty firearms. Some don't even keep guns at home. Some without the direct interest are also the ones who get into highly stressful shootings and 10X the bad guy with a perfect shoot!

Then there are LEO's that have a great amount of tactical knowledge. Most law enforcement agencies have adopted military tactics and training for thier officers. My depatment has some of the most advanced training anywhere and many of our cops are former special forces members.

Many cops do have good tactical shooting knowledge and a warrior mindset.

The tactical training I do and have learned comes from some great Cops and military folks! SOme of the best training in the world!
 
Couple of things...

I spent quite a bit of time in the military (US Army) and as an additional duty ran 4 arms rooms in different units. I learned what I could then--in my first unit (Infantry, Korea) I got lucky--by volunteering for range detail I got to help shoot up ALL the excess ammunition left over after quals or training. I got to be pretty handy with M16's, M60's, 1911 pistols and good ol' Ma Deuce. I can say with satisfaction that I have melted a few barrels. :D

Fast forward to when I first broke into law enforcement. Was I salty? Oh, heck yes! I was a serious reloader by then, and I put a lot of rounds down range. Thought I knew it all.

My first academy taught me otherwise, and it started the germ of the idea that practice is OK, but perfect practice is better. I started holding myself to a higher standard, and started practicing to actually HIT what I was supposed to.

I progressed in my law enforcement career, landed the armorer's spot, and continued to learn. Then, I started shooting NRA Conventional Pistol--good old boring Bullseye shooting.

I REALLY became anal retentive about hitting my targets then. I started realizing where I was on the proficiency curve--and I wasn't impressed. I started loading handgun ammunition in big bunches. I would head to the range and shoot 100 rounds practicing for bullseye matches. This was the warm up. I then put the competition stuff away and put on my duty belt. At the range, I started practicing my draw and engaging targets.

Then I was selected to be my Department's precision rifleman--as in, sniper.

I went to my first sniper school kind of cocky. After all, I was a former Infantryman--right? I knew this stuff cold.

After my first day at school, I crawled back to my hotel room, tail firmly tucked between my legs, and camped out under a hot shower. I didn't sit in the corner and whimper while playing with the dog toys--but I came close.

This stuff was HARD!!!

After the school, and returning to my Department, I went through the Colt course for the M16 series of firearms. I learned that there are a TON of teeny tiny parts in that M16; that they seem to have a life of their own, and that they will run off with glee and hide in the carpet at the first opportunity. (Don't ask me how I know. Please....:eek:)

So, what have I learned?

1. Most cops are not gun people. In my quest to set maintenance schedules for the Department firearms, I cringe at some of the guns I see. Some are bathed in oil--even the firing pin channels (Glock pistols, which is a big no-no). Some are bone dry, without even the required lubrication. I've pulled some apart and gotten sheepish looks when I clear the pistol, pop the slide assembly off and LINT and DUST fall out. I've seen barrels that were clogged with debris. I've pulled apart AR15 carbines that dropped plates and chunks of carbon fouling when the bolt carrier group was disassembled. I've had officers tell me "I don't trust this gun, because it jams." A few drops of oil inside the bone-dry rifle, and it runs like a Swiss watch.

2. A lot of the command staff look askance and anyone they THINK is a gun enthusiast. I finally got tired of being referred to as "Tackleberry".

One time, when I was doing a qualification shoot, I was on the way to cleaning the course for the sixth time. (My thought was, "Hey, they're giving me a bullseye as big as a dinner plate, starting me at 3 yards, and letting me use both hands? Riiiight.....) I heard one of the officers behind me say "That's all he ever (bleeping) does is shoot!" And he said it with some REAL venom in his voice, too.

No, all cops are not gun guys--neither are soldiers. My favorite yarn is still, "Soviet weapons are designed so that they can shoot OUR ammo, but we can't shoot theirs." (Hm. I want to see someone throw a 7.62x51 NATO into the chamber of an AK. Let me know how that works for you.)

As far as Nicky Santoro's statement--whatever, fella. You may have the opinion that cops have little or no integrity. I know better. I don't get mad when I hear this--because I seem to hear it from quite a few people, who usually have had a run in with the law. I know better, friend. I know that if I get into a pinch and I'm in uniform, if there's a brother or sister officer anywhere near, in uniform or not, I have backup. I know that I hold my badge and my oath inviolate. And I can go home knowing that each day I have acted with compassion and integrity toward my fellow man or woman. And--that's all I need to know.
 
Some are bone dry, without even the required lubrication. I've pulled some apart and gotten sheepish looks when I clear the pistol, pop the slide assembly off and LINT and DUST fall out.
Click to expand...

I've heard the same thing from a CHL instructor who was a police department armorer at one time. He said he'd seen police weapons so gunked and dried up they literally wouldn't even operate. The only time they'd been taken from their holsters was for annual qualifying, which in itself didn't amount to a hill of beans.

So yeah, just because somebody's an LEO or veteran doesn't automatically make him a Rambo. Not even close.
 
I ran my own business, as a firearms instructor, for over 20 years. Over 500 students per year. Most of my Students were from the private Security Field, one company, armored Car/ATM replenishment and maintenance, had 400 of a staff. Police, and military.

To get the permission to obtain this status (A Instructor had to be qualified to teach, not so hard) some of the new hire in my biggest Company were ex LEO.

Most were not so special, but safe. A couple were superb shots, ex Pistol Team members, etc.

Using simple techniques to teach young Security Staff, amazing results. The majority (Canadians) had never ever handled a Revolver/Glock pistol in their lives.

Never even held one. But you can teach a person to shoot a Revolver, or a Glock 9mm, in two hours, maximum class size, 8.

Four to 6 hours, to obtain really good results, from a holster, and speed loader use, and competent reloads with a Glock 19 or 17.

This is not brain surgery.
 
This is not brain surgery.
Click to expand...

Actually, I'd suggest that teaching ANYthing, from firearms to knitting to brain surgery, isn't brain surgery. Know the current skill sets of the learners, introduce a measured amount of challenge, allow the student to fill that challenge. The problem, as suggested in this thread, is the "bad advice" factor. Bad advice isn't measured amount of challenge. It's just plain wrong and doesn't promote the allowing of "filling the challenge".

It would seem expectable that in firearms, there is more of a "bad advice macho factor" than in other fields. I doubt that knitting instructors get side tracked with war stories when teaching their classes. But we (the gun guys) certainly do. We tend to get trapped into "Well I can do that so I can teach it" or worse "I had a really tough coach and I turned out ok, so I'll be an even tougher coach".


Sgt Lumpy - n0eq
 
I've certainly heard my fair share of bull come from LEO/military "experts". My favorite is that a Glock will blow up if you use copper jacketed ammo in it. I patiently tried to explain that non jacketed bullets are actually what can be dangerous, to no avail. He remains convinced. Whatever, I tried. Legal advice is another dandy. I've heard lots of idiotic stuff come out of a cops mouth in the legal arena. Once I was told by a LEO that if I shot someone on my front porch to drag them back in the house:eek:. You can see why I might be skeptical.

While I certainly cannot speak for every police department in the nation, I do know that the ones in this general vicinity receive very little real world training. I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find one in this county who knows how to properly clear a building. Their "training" consists of a yearly qualifications course of 100 rounds. I'd hardly consider that training since my average range session generally consists of two or three times that much shooting.
The Police absoloutly recieve more, and better training than the average shooter. First most shooters dont recieve any training other than perhaps an initial CCW class. Police departments require a minimum of yearly qualification. Much police training is done outside the range during in service training cycles. The police must meet minimum standards, civilians dont.
Click to expand...

I might agree with that first sentence. But I wouldn't agree that the average trained shooter has had less. And I'm speaking about those that seek out training (not CCW training). Why? Because much of the training we take is more intently focused on using lethal force in a dynamic situation. We aren't training to respond to a call to an armed robbery or a shooting in progress, we're training that we're in the middle of the firefight. No backup, no radio, no body armor, no M4 carbines. It's far different than rolling up in the cruiser and proceeding from there. Soldiers are the same way. The guy who manned a mounted machine gun for an entire tour in the sandbox would be just the ticket if I had an M2 mounted to my pickup and insurgents in the hills, but his skills will be of little use if a firefight breaks out inside the Jr. Food downtown.

It's not that I'm belittling police officers or soldiers and what they do, I have a lot of friends and family who are or were both, and I thank them and all others for their service. That said, I can think of a lot of "civilians" who I would much prefer to be near me inside the kill box, as they say. Or whom I would seek my advise from. My $0.02.
 
Hmm. First post here so greetings. I can't someone I want but maybe that's by design since I'm the newbie. Have been shooting for most of my life and i'm in my 50's now. I'm a retired 30 plus year LEO. I've seen a few insults towards the profession in general with no reason for it. While I agree with some on here that many officers have little interest in guns or shooting beyond what's required I would put most of them up against many I see at public shooting ranges. Clark Brothers outside of Warrenton, Va is one range that comes to mind. I get scared shooting there with some of the morons there shooting and the lack of real oversight. If some of these stunts were pulled at the range their heads would roll. I could never understand why the poor shooting officers would not work extra to improve their range scores but they could never skimp of safety skills.
 
How is it even possible to be an officer and not be a gun guy or gun gal? Isn't that the first requirement of the job? Sorry, I find it believable but still astounding. Would be like an infantry soldier who doesn't know how to use firearm.
 
Does this forum not have a quote button or do I just need to post more before I'll see one????


"How is it even possible to be an officer and not be a gun guy or gun gal? Isn't that the first requirement of the job? Sorry, I find it believable but still astounding. Would be like an infantry soldier who doesn't know how to use firearm."

Why should a LEO be a gun person? They should be proficient in the use of whatever firearms they are issued. For most it's the sidearm and a shotgun. But in my 30 plus years in LE I saw officers who could make the minimum standards at the range but that was it and most did not work to improve their abilities. But on the same note, the vast majority of officers will go their entire career and never fire their weapon and they know it. But I wanted to be ready so I became an expert shot and I loved the tactical training. When I became the K9 trainer I added much more tactical training to our training to include more firearm training. I would like to see all officers become experts in firearms but it will never happen..
 
"The More People I meet the More I Like My Dog"

I love that dog quote! We do need better training, we the blokes with CCWL in FL, permits some places. And LEOs, but it is all cost.

And speaking of $s, you do know the people who sign the checks, are not the people who draw and fire.

I remember the quote, the Chiefs buy the knives, the Indians have to carry them.
 
Last edited:
In Virginia, veterans are not required to take a class for their concealed weapon permit. I was happy about the fact I did not have to take the class, but I know a lot of veterans that barely know which end of the gun the bullets come out of.
 
It was the same in Florida, just needed a DD-214. I was very comfortable with the gun aspect of things, but I took a class because while I knew firearms, I did not know Florida carry and self-defense law.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top