Bad advice from military/law enforcement...

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There was a girl who worked in our intel shop, hyper-competent at her job, very professional, who just could not shoot her Beretta.

Heck, her Beretta spent our entire deployment shoved in her make shift wall locker.

And she got a combat patch same as me and my guys.
 
Another thing to remember is that just because someone is an expert with the skills and knowledge he uses in his job doesn't necessarily make him an expert in other, even if related, matters. Combat in a war zone is not exactly the same as self defense by a private citizen on a peaceful city street. And a local police officer shouldn't necessarily be expected to be fully familiar with federal law on firearm transfers.
 
"Load nothing but tracers in the bottom half of your mag."
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One of my favorites, knew that was dumb from the get go, I did make my last 4 tracers but not half the mag. Also we loaded mags from a can filled with a hodgepodge of Mk262 77gr OTMs and M855 62gr ball and I was told I should alternate every other round so that the M855 could punch through the car door and the Mk262 could easily follow behind and the "hollow point" would do more damage. I said "uh... Sure Sgt, whatever you say"

I don't claim to be an expert in laws or self defense tactics. I am, however, hyper alert/vigilant, proficient with a handgun and one of the better shooters in my company with a rifle. I will never clear a house/apartment by myself or even with another person who doesn't know exactly how its done, good way to have my little brother/mom/dad/girlfriend shoot me in the arse. The best choice IMHO when caught in a pickle whether in your own home or out in town is to hold your pos and defend yourself and those in your immediate vicinity if needed. Let the fight find you, hope that it doesn't, and be prepared when it does.

You want good advice? You need a SWAT cop with a minimum of 15 years of service in a big city AND a lawyer. I would think the two combined would cover most of your bases. And as always common sense is indispensable.

*Edit- and if you aren't nuts about the above, see the last line in my sig.
 
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S$&#% lawyers, the errornet & "tips"....

As a young E-1 buck in the US Army MP course(basic) our company commander(a O-3 captain who once ran the personal security detail for the commanding general of NATO) told us to avoid the; "S-house lawyers" ;) .
This was sage advice. Many "experts" are way off base or use information that can't or won't relate to the student(listener).
I avoid giving out tips or advice unless I know it's been checked, I know the source or it's a personal view(weapons gear uniform items etc).
I've talked to many US LE officers over the years who give "citizens"(people not in their sworn agency) bad advice, wrong information or way off details.
I blame the training & admin standards of the state. My state used to provide sworn LE officers with regular in service training about gun laws, concealed carry requirements, armed industry SOPs(security bail enforcement PIs etc).
The state Div of Licensing & LE standards commission ended it in 2009 due to budget cuts. :(
This isn't an opinion or second hand either, I was in the state meeting when the Div of Licensing official said it.
Cops like other armed professionals should avoid telling citizens things unless they are 100% sure it's true. Many uniformed LE officers are asked a 1,000,000 times by citizens about guns, tactics, vehicles, ammunition, etc.
I'd take what a sworn LE officer says with grain of salt. They are NOT held to the same standards as a regular citizen & have the agency's $, resources & labor groups to support them.

Clyde
 
I think many who buy into "He/she is military or LE," are typically beginners. Fundamentals, which are *generally* taught pretty well are pretty basic and what I think many of the beginners seek from people they believe are experts. That in itself shouldn't be much of an issue. I think the big problem stems from the fact that the attitude instilled into the military (can't speak for LE), is to be so confident in your answer even when you don't know it or know you're wrong. People in the military and I am assuming LE do not want to feel inadequate in an area where many have high expectations.The other problem is one that stems out beyond firearms and one of which I encounter fairly regularly being former military. People, especially of the young adult age group, really want to live their fantasy through the militarys reality. What I mean by this is often times someone will ask a member of the military a question, and they may not have the answer. A typical response is "Awww come on man, you were this/that/the other!....but like I thought all Marines see combat and are rifleman...etc. etc." Some folks will just let them hear want they want to hear. I don't however think this is acceptable in talking about firearms and shooting.

Everyone else pretty much has said what needed to be said ;)
 
ohen cepel:

You wrote:

I had a bud (real story, I was there) who went to a guy from the SF group on post to put a scope on his hunting rifle. He couldn't figure out why he couldn't get it sighted in. The SF guy had mounted it sideways. Just because someone is SF, Ranger, DELTA, Boy Scouts, or a SEAL doesn't mean they are a weapons expert. Yes, some are the finest in the world, but not all. There are also medics, commo, intel, log, engineer, and many other fields in that world.

If hes with CAG (Delta) and graduated the operators training course he is an expert and hes extremely proficient with a wide variety of weapons.

Ive seen very few operators that couldnt smoke most civilian instructors on both knowledge of mms and skills with handling of a weapon.

To be clear their end game is not to put tight little holes in paper while standing on a firing line. Their end game is CQB and they clear rooms in low light / no light while moving around innocent people. So in this case I would take advice from any CAG operator.

Your end point about medics/commo/engineers/Intel makes me wonder if you have ever been around the SF community - Who do you think makes up an ODA?? (12 man team) their are only two light weapons guys on the team .

I think the problem your pointing out is the difference between the support guys and the operational guys. NO SF guy mounted a scope sideways. It may have been a support guy asigned to an SF Group but not an SF guy. Same goes for the SEAL team members and the guys in the ranger bats

And yes even among the teams there are some elements that get more training with certain weapons but by and large in the SPECOPS community the team guys are well qualified to give advice on small arms.


here is a video for your viewing pleasure


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Vod8NUE0M
 
5Whiskey

I went through basic training in 1969 in a hurry to get bodies over to the South East Asian area.

If you got more training than I did, I'm glad to hear it. I think that's great.

Still and all, all the training you and I both received in the Marine Corps didn't teach either one of us to shoot birds or intimate knowledge of commercial self-defense ammunition.

So, neither of us are going to be the ultimate answer man.
 
Just because somebody was once a cop or served in the military does not necessarily make them knowledgable about ANYTHING.

And I say that from the perspective of a police firearms instructor (almost 32 years) who was in law enforcement related positions in the National Guard for 20 years. I've seen this from both the police side and the military side.

Most people, in any endeavor in life, coast along and do the minimum (or a little more) necessary to function in their occupation.

Only a small group of motivated people devotes any of their own time to improving their knowledge and abilities and skills.

Only a small group of motivated people even pays attention to THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE and learns from it. Most people just bumble along in the fog.

People who lack intellectual curiosity irritate me, and the older I get the more it irritates me . . .

So, if somebody was a cop, or in a military specialty where they were armed as part of their job function (infantry, MP, combat engineer, etc) they had the OPPERTUNITY to learn things, but only if they PAID ATTENTION!

And most likely, if they ARE knowledgable, it's because they had a personal interest that aligned with their job function, and they took it upon themselves to learn more, because it was fun for them. That's NOT most people, unfortunately
 
You have to understand that a lot of military members only handle weapons when qualification time comes around. Not all military occupations require individuals to be well trained in firearms. There are also a lot of people in this world that claim to be in the military usually saying they were some sort of special forces or infantry that never were. The ones that have served in those type of positions dont talk about it much.
 
23 years of LE behind me so far. The majority of officers I know are not into guns [and their qualification scores show it]. Even so, the only LEOs I'd take advice from as far as guns and gunfights would be the late Jim Cirillo, and also Massad Ayoob. Having said that: Nicky Santoro, you're entitled to your opinion. You're also wrong to paint all of LE with the same broad brush. Unless you've met, talked to, and spent time with every single LEO in this country, and somehow have found them to be without integrity, your statement is pointless, anti-LE nonsense. Just admit that you hate cops; no need to dance around the subject.
 
I know a Special Forces officer (he really is one, not just pretending to be one) who gave me the worst possible advice I have ever heard.

He said when he saw someone driving poorly that you should confront them directly by getting out of your vehicle and going and talking to them about what they were doing wrong (speeding, ran a stop light, talking on cell phone etc) when they stopped. (I actually saw him do this on two occasions) He said we should not allow people to do this because they put everyone at risk. He was very calm and a matter of fact when he did this.

I have never driven with him since then. Trying to start an encounter with some random stranger by criticizing their driving sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

It occurred to me later that maybe he had one too many trips to Afghanistan and was trying to initiate some kind of hostile/ road rage encounter.

He is one heck of shot and pretty smart with guns though.
 
Being a handgun, or long gun expert is not a qualification for being a police officer. Every police officer carries at least one handgun, and possibly a rifle and / or a shotgun. Their department insures that each officer is qualified with the use of these weapons, and the legal details of when each weapon may be used. This does not make any of them an expert. I dont know why anyone would assume that any of them is an expert.

Some policemen are firearms enthusiasts. Most are not. These inthusiasts arent experts any more than those who are not. The police recieve more better training than most people. (I know I'm going to get flamed for this). Police training tends ro be reality based not worst case scenario based.
 
"The police receive more better training than most people." That statement absolutely proves that you haven't spent much time on a range with any real cops. Their training is quick, short and as cheap as it can be made and there is almost no safety taught at all (or they won't listen). I know because I was a instructor. Every single time I had a student unintentionally discharge a gun and come within inches of shooting me or someone else it was a "trained" police officer. Every time. Anytime an LEO shows up at the range now I leave. Their marksmanship is pitiful and their gun handling skills are terrible. It is not really their fault, their training is simply very poor and they all seem to believe that they are "experts" just because they are cops. (or former military)
 
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Every single time I had a student unintentionally discharge a gun and come within inches of shooting me or someone else it was a "trained" police officer. Every time. Anytime an LEO shows up at the range now I leave. Their marksmanship is pitiful and their gun handling skills are terrible. It is not really their fault, their training is simply very poor and they all seem to believe that they are "experts" just because they are cops. (or former military)
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You too huh? 2 bullet holes in my shooting bench and a lead streak on the wall of my shooting range and all done by deputies, none of the civilian shooters or military shooters using the range had a gun go off where the bullet didn't go down range where it belonged. That being said my most difficult shooters were the old timers with 20+ years of gun handling behind them but were new to range procedure and discipline.
 
True story...

A few years ago, I took a armed security class with a top instructor & owner/CEO of a well known security/skill training school. He also served on the state's security industry training panel.
At a 2009 meeting of state officials & security officers/supervisors, he told a quick story.
The security trainer told our group about a high ranking state trooper who had to check all the highway patrol offices as part of his duties. The senior trooper told him that EVERY troop office in the state had at least 1 hole in the ceiling, ;) .
True story.
Clyde
 
Ill be the first to admit I'm no poster child of range safety. I follow the rules and everything but in my particular field we spent a lot of training time doing things that ranged from not safe to downright dangerous and were often told by instructors that the usual rules did not apply to us. So I probably do things that would make life long paper punchers uncomfortable.

That being said I don't consider my range time to be unsafe but I'm not the best one to give advice on that subject. Its something I take seriously since its going to fall on me to teach my nephew about all things firearms.

I keep telling Pahoo he needs to come over to our range and he would probably spend the whole time telling me what I'm doing wrong lol. I take advice from anyone with a grain of salt but I always like to hear others opinions and or constructive criticism.
 
AS's post, SF instructor...

I'm curious to know why AL Shooter would be around a person so reckless & unstable. This SF veteran may have serious mental health problems.

When I took my 1st armed security course in 2002, my class instructor was a SF(US Army special forces) veteran & PSC(private contractor). The guy was a total nutbar. The mgr of the training course even told our class she was going to get rid of him.
Some people can earn skill badges or work in spec ops but they are not good instructors. That includes entry level students.
Clyde
 
I'm curious to know why AL Shooter would be around a person so reckless & unstable.
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I used to work with him.

He was pretty stable. I think he felt he had to put the whole world to right which led to his reckless behavior. I would not put him the nutjob category just a little intense.
 
He has a point. If we don't hold people accountable they will keep doing the same stuff. So I don't agree with the tactics he used but I agree with the sentiment. I have gotten off my motorcycle several times to talk to drivers who were doing things that could have gotten me killed.

We have a huge problem in this world of calling people on their BS. I posted in another thread about being an expert in conflict resolution. You don't have to start a fight to get your point across. You can always walk away if things go bad. If you are not man enough to walk away then you should not be carrying a firearm.
 
drail... Sir

As it happens I have spent quite a bit of time on police ranges. As well a lot of time on civilian ranges. IN MY EXPERIENCE... the safety violations on either were very rare, and continue to be rare. I'm sure that there are some departments out there with some inherent issues... Just as there must be civilian ranges with similar issues.

The Police absoloutly recieve more, and better training than the average shooter. First most shooters dont recieve any training other than perhaps an initial CCW class. Police departments require a minimum of yearly qualification. Much police training is done outside the range during in service training cycles. The police must meet minimum standards, civilians dont.

I'm not at all suggesting that the police are better trained than all shooters... just better trained than the average gun owner. Police training is, and should be different than non police training. Police tend to use raw data of real world incidents to form their training regimin. Civilian organizations tend to use second or third hand information, and imagined incidents for their regimin. There is a well known and well respected (Including my own great respect) , very professional trainer that sometimes comes into these chats. I read an artical he'd written about a rare protracted police vs armed robber shooting. He treated the incident with respect, and honest criticisim. As I said I respect this guy, but he got it all wrong. Not that he did anything wrong... He was responding to incomplete information. I know because I was there.

I'm not saying that civilian trainers are any less qualified, or less professional than police trainers.. in fact I believe that often the opposite is true. I'm not suggesting that civilian training or trainers are of less value than police trainers... thats just not my experience. If there was a way to get every S/D, H/D gun owner to get into an ongoing training program I'd be a very happy camper. I try to get in as much training as I can. A personal friend, and local trainer is a "REAL DEAL" guy... we do civilian training all the time.
 
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