Backpacker vs grizzly bear in Denali Natl Park

But we're discussing the incident that took place within the park and my comments were from a standpoint of conservationism. ... Like a few others, I was simply wondering whether the shoot was absolutely necessary.
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I was out yesterday for most of the day, and stopped counting the piles of bear scat that I stepped around. (And some of them fresh, as in, "sorry to interrupt your bathroom time Mr. Bear.") We are in no danger of running out of bears anywhere close to where I live. They are not an endangered species in my neck of the woods.

I love nature, I even love bears. Not going to pull a Timothy Treadwell however. There is a whole lot of bush in Alaska. Bears are very good at going the other way when in the same vicinity as people. But, if a bear is aggressive and advancing on someone, I am going to opt for the person being the one to walk away. (Please note: I am still a strong advocate for bear spray as the first defensive tool to be used against bears, highest likelihood that you will walk away unharmed.)

Try going out, just yourself and a rifle, and hunting bear. Not as easy as you might think. They know the bush like you know your living room. They are faster, stronger, and can be very quiet too.

It is unfortunate if a bear is shot and wasted. I would hope that the person/people that walked away from a bear shooting encounter would be worth more than the bear; if not, very sad indeed.
 
well.. bear or not bear ..would or shuold I feel better shooting a bear or a human attacker or intruder well ...if there is a robber walking up the stairs to my childrens bedroom I would shoot it as that bear .. would I feel bad yes.. just shot a being ...maybe a not so bad one .. but who cares at that moment and that situation..that is why we have guns ..there comes the moment an you pull the trigger.. it could have been a very friendly fluffy bear... then again a second later could have killed you then your wife then your child..bear or no bear if you carry a gun be ready to use it..that is why you carry it..
 
If I found myself walking in bear country with only a .45 ACP for company, I would at least hope it was filled with these, or if a HP was desired, then these. And as AZAK said, hopefully, bear spray first.
 
Total newby to this forum,, but not to Alaska. I'm with "kodiakbear", the bear in the picture at the bottom of page one on here is a yearling,, more curious about who/what you are than a real threat. Just compair the size of this brownie with the APD car. 5 foot? if that.
The hikers panicked, but, that being said: It's easy to do.
Folks REALLY don't get IT. This is Alaska,, not anywhere/somewhere in the lower 48. Here you wander a half mile off the road, youre not in some farmer's field, you ARE in no-sh*t wilderness. You are NOT the dominant preditor.
My job and my hobby take me (not often enough) into brownie territory,,

IMHO there is NO handgun which is bear-medicine.
When I can indulge my hobby, recreational goldmining, my wife and I are religious about keeping bear medicine on our person.
- Marlin 1895GS, Wild West Magnum mod to .457,, Large loop and 2X fixed power, long relief scope. Personally modified 3 point M4 type sling.
- Older model 500 Mossburg Marine Grade 12 guage with magazine. Holds 5+1 Rottwieler 1 oz slugs with a similar sling.
Combined with a little(lot) of experience tends to bred some confidence.
If I had to pick a handgun,, it would be a .44 Desert Eagle,, no doubt,, the semi-auto seems to me to take into account the "sh*tting your pants" factor,,,lol

FWIW,, I had a blackie about this same size in my driveway last night..
twheel
 

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Driving about this morning I passed a site that refreshed my memory of an event a few years ago. While not bear related it is wildlife related, a moose was hit by a P/U and I got there just as the LEO did. I witnessed this officer shoot the moose 16 times with a 45acp, then go to the trunk of his cruiser and take out a 223 mini14 and pump another 20 rounds into the moose all at 15 feet away. After all was done the moose was still able to get up and try to move but it had broken legs. Had the moose not had broken legs I believe it would have been able to walk.

I was counting the shots as I was only 20 feet away from the officer. I noticed when he opened the trunk his hands were visibly shaking, so I have to wonder where he hit the moose and how many times. I wondered why he didn't just shoot it in the ear? It took another 5 minutes for the moose to finally quit moving, I think it died from lead poisoning more than anything else . The moose would have weighed about 800 pounds rough guess, so when an animal is determined it can take quite a bit of punishment and it can dish out lethal punishment before it expires.
 
well..as it has been said many times... for a good size bear is at least .44 mag revolver... one just has to remember ti pick one with not very long barrel and making sure to file down the front sight...so when you are done shooting and the bear shoves it up your a... does not hurt that much...

..and that is so true..
on the other side anythig is better than nothing...
 
I think in a place like Denali there must be some ultra strenuous protection of the wildlife. The normal concept of self-defense doesn't work there, because its the bears home, not the hikers, and bears are gonna do what bears do. The hikers know that going in, and no one HAS to go hiking there. But I think the law should allow hiking or camping there and allow a hiker or camper to bring a gun if they like, or a flame thrower for that matter, but before entering the park that hiker or camper should have to legally acknowledge that if he or she kills a bear in the park FOR ANY REASON, including self defense, he or she will have to pay for that bear- say at a cost of$10,000 - or whatever amount is about twice the cost of a regular bear hunting trip in Alaska. To be sure a shooter will pay, all hikers and campers who go to the park armed should be required to post a bond or a letter of credit for that amount before entering the park, and not be allowed armed entry without doing so. All bear shootings should be closely investigated, and if the shooter did not fire in self defense, there should be a prison sentence of at least one year added to that $10,000.

Something like this would encourage those people who really just want to kill a bear to do their hunting outside of a wildlife preserve.
 
I think in a place like Denali there must be some ultra strenuous protection of the wildlife. The normal concept of self-defense doesn't work there, because its the bears home, not the hikers, and bears are gonna do what bears do. The hikers know that going in, and no one HAS to go hiking there. But I think the law should allow hiking or camping there and allow a hiker or camper to bring a gun if they like, or a flame thrower for that matter, but before entering the park that hiker or camper should have to legally acknowledge that if he or she kills a bear in the park FOR ANY REASON, including self defense, he or she will have to pay for that bear- say at a cost of$10,000 - or whatever amount is about twice the cost of a regular bear hunting trip in Alaska. To be sure a shooter will pay, all hikers and campers who go to the park armed should be required to post a bond or a letter of credit for that amount before entering the park, and not be allowed armed entry without doing so. All bear shootings should be closely investigated, and if the shooter did not fire in self defense, there should be a prison sentence of at least one year added to that $10,000.

Something like this would encourage those people who really just want to kill a bear to do their hunting outside of a wildlife preserve.
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I doubt it would go that far. What's more likely to happen is a lobbying effort to reinstate the ban.
 
Stiofan said:
Yes, well you live in Texas where there are no Griz or Brownies. 'Nuff said.
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We don't worry a lot about bears, but we do have several venomous snakes to deal with. And the situation is the same as with bears. Many seem to think if you see a snake (of any kind) you have to shoot it or it'll get ya.

'Nuff said. ;)

(Like there's ever enough said)
 
I think in a place like Denali there must be some ultra strenuous protection of the wildlife. The normal concept of self-defense doesn't work there, because its the bears home, not the hikers, and bears are gonna do what bears do.
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Emphasis by AZAK

A bear mauling is a bear mauling is a bear mauling...

It does not matter whether it is in Denali (I have hiked through there and seen bears), or in some other parts of the Alaska Bush (been there too and seen bears), or just outside my living room (guess what... and seen bears)

Self defense is just what it says = self defense.

THIS IS ALASKA. Cut the state in half and Texas is now the third largest state. Forget what Alaska looks like on most maps you have ever seen; no, we are not in the Gulf of Mexico or out in the Pacific next to Hawaii and no we are not about twice as big as Hawaii. Now think, " Alaska is Really, Really Big!" Super-impose Alaska over the lower 48 and our state almost touches the North, South, East and West boundaries of the lower 48. B-I-G.
http://www.birds-eye-view.alaska.edu/ch2/story2-3.htm

Now, think about the people population of the state. Way less than 1 million. Most of your big cities (each) have way more people than our entire state! And about 1/3 of our human population is in one place - Anchorage!

Bears have a Whole Lot of range up here! (And in almost the entire state, no people as even remote neighbors.) There are many bears up here. They are Not an endangered species up here. Life is pretty good for a bear up here. Lots of salmon, berries, moose, and the occasional slow and slower witted tourist; To paraphrase Chad Carpenter, the Alaskan cartoonist: Step outside and Welcome to the food chain. (And you are not at the top.)

Common sense quiz time.
A bear is charging aggressively you:
a) Let nature take it's course (with you as a possible entree)
b) do something to avoid a)

Most of us will probably choose b). Aside from not being there in the first place (moving to Chicago, opps bad example, San Francisco), if you live in Alaska (and I will even include Anchorage for the sake of argument) bear encounters are a possibility of life.

I have advocated bear spray for years, look at the results in Alaska:
http://www.adn.com/2008/04/20/381252/spray-proves-its-worth-in-bear.html
And if you don't want to read it all, or just need the Cliff Notes version:
"And in none of the 83 cases the scientists examined was a bear-spray user seriously injured."

In addition to bear spray, I also carry one or two firearms with me when I venture out; two for the bush, one for "town".

And my closest non-hunting bear encounter ended at about 4 feet. And I didn't care where I was at that second in time (Denali or The White House formal dining room) that bear was Not getting any closer since I had a say in the matter.

YMMV

I also buckle my seatbelt, much higher likelihood of hitting a moose than getting mauled by a bear.
 
Sure Azak, I understand that if a bear attacks someone, that person is going to defend his life. All I'm saying is that when a guy puts himself into such a situation unneccesarily, and winds up having to kill a bear because of it, he should have to pay $10,000 for it. That seems only fair since the bear paid much more, he paid with his life.

After all, this guy could have driven a car through the park. He could have stayed in a cabin. He could have stayed home. He chose to go hiking in the park. He also chose to go for this stroll armed with a 45, which may have been because he knew bears were in the woods.

Dead bears tell no tales. We will probably never know if the bear actually attacked that hiker or if the hiker just lit him up for no reason other than so he could say he'd killed a bear.

Personally, I tend to doubt the good intentions of someone who goes for an armed stroll through a game preserve.

I am not anti-hunting. I have nothing against hunting bears in Alaska or anywhere its legal to do so, just not in Denali National Park where they are supposed to be protected. As you mentioned Alaska is full of bears.
 
DG please go take your medicine ! LOL

Just think a minute. Some of you people are assuming the guy just wanted to shoot a bear and brag about it. You could be wrong ! I'm sure if that's all he wanted to do, would he pick a national park, I don't think so. None of US were there so we don't know anything other than the news reported information.

We could have heard another story " Two hikers were found mauled to death by a bear on a popular hiking trail "

Now would you be jumping up and down shooting them down because they were there in the first place and should have been armed with some type of defensive weapon. Come on people, there are way to many people that put the wildlife " right to live " above the peoples right to live.
I'd love to be in the woods with one of you armchair doinks who is making this issue a bigger issue with your Not so good opinions, and see what you would do if a wild animal comes popping out of the bushes and scares the scat out of you. Ever see a wild boar down low coming at you ! he wasn’t charging me, but I was on HIS trail in HIS boonies. Been there done that, it's not funny, and you also have to realize that in the some of those exact situations, the wildlife is just as startled and scared also, thank god the animals don't carry guns huh !.

I been lucky so far, nothing has ever charged me, My brother did come face to face with a Big bear, he was unloaded (Bow hunting) and coming down the mountain trail and ran right into the bear face to face, Well he said he had to change his shorts and the bear left a trail on it's fast retreat back down the trail, Wow boy !...

I plink and enjoy the various hunting seasons, and whenever I'm heading out I am always loaded for emergencies. I really don't look forward to finding out the hard way if my caliber of choice will stop a charging bear.

I really doubt if this will start a new thing, go in the parks so you can shoot a bear. This is garbage.
IMHO the real hunters out there who DO hunt bears have plenty of area's to do the bear hunting, it's legal just like deer and other wildlife hunting. In my experience with real hunters, most really do follow the laws and guidelines of legal hunting.
I can't speak of the stupid one's who keep shooting themselves while climbing in the tree stands, every season. It’s so easy to do this with an empty rifle during your climb.

And by now, I'm very sure this has been investigated by very experienced people and they have probably got it all figured out.

I hunt in two states, both have bears, We are not allowed to go hunting with any repeating arms, or semi's So Bolt action rifles, shotguns, blackpowder, revolvers, bows, cross bows is it. We all carry the largest handgun we can just in case of an emergency just like this one.

BTW, Yep your all entitled to your say just try to keep it real and don't bust on this poor guy without firsthand knowledge of him and his attitude. He may have been shaken so bad he'll never step foot in the wildlands again Or he could be a doink. We’ll never really know.

And please also take in account of the millions of people who go out and enjoy our fantastic country parks and come home safe. Some don't come home at all.

Regards.

Duane USN/ret
 
All emphasis by AZAK
Sure Azak, I understand that if a bear attacks someone, that person is going to defend his life. All I'm saying is that when a guy puts himself into such a situation unneccesarily, and winds up having to kill a bear because of it, he should have to pay $10,000 for it. That seems only fair since the bear paid much more, he paid with his life.
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Anytime one steps out of the: car, cabin, house, off the boat, etc... in Alaska one has the chance of encountering a bear. (Not a huge chance mind you, much more likely to hit a moose in your car, or be hit by another driver; we are talking about a very unlikely encounter, B U T - behold the underlying truth - it does happen.

After all, this guy could have driven a car through the park. He could have stayed in a cabin. He could have stayed home. He chose to go hiking in the park. He also chose to go for this stroll armed with a 45, which may have been because he knew bears were in the woods.
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Ever been to Denali? Not many folks get the opportunity to drive their own personal car through the park. There is a lottery, so that a few folks actually get to do this. One can hike, or take the bus; as the main inroads into the park. And it really depends on which "park" or part of Denali you are talking about. And really, what is the point of going into the wilderness, in Alaska, and staying in your car (if you are fit enough to hike)?

Personally, ad nauseum, I promote bear spray first and foremost. I personally also carry shotgun with slugs, or a magnum hunting rifle and/or 10mm hand gun. I would not want to shoot any bear up here with a .45 acp.

Dead bears tell no tales. We will probably never know if the bear actually attacked that hiker or if the hiker just lit him up for no reason other than so he could say he'd killed a bear.
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Wow. In Alaska we have concealed carry with out a permit. In the United States you are innocent until proven guilty; last I checked. You could say that Alaska is kind of a "glass is half full" sort of place.

Personally, I tend to doubt the good intentions of someone who goes for an armed stroll through a game preserve.
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So, just because one crosses a "magical/political line" self-defense and the right to protect oneself and one's family just "changes"? Sorry hun I know that you are not a fast runner what with that bum knee and all, don't have the $10 grand... Again, I believe in the "glass is half full" and innocent until proven guilty part.

I am not anti-hunting. I have nothing against hunting bears in Alaska or anywhere its legal to do so, just not in Denali National Park where they are supposed to be protected. As you mentioned Alaska is full of bears.
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Hunting bear is quite different than self defense against a bear. Having done both in Alaska (Not in Denali) I feel that I might have a valid opinion on this topic.

And what if "THEY" decided that there were too many bears in Denali, and opened up a bear hunting season in the Park. Do you believe in "game management"? Or are those folks that make those rules maybe not perfect? (Kind of like the magical lines where self-defense rules change? Kind of reminds me of those "Gun Free Zones" where never has there been any type of gunfire; right.)

Poaching is still illegal in Alaska. Hunting laws are enforced. Now your $10,000 fine idea comes into play.

When visiting Denali in the past, I did follow the letter of the law; carrying bear spray only. I have not returned since the law has changed, but when I do, I will still have my bear spray and a firearm.

Feel free to carry on in the tradition of Timothy Treadwell or Christopher McCandless if you so choose; but, remember that not all of us wish to do so. Just because some choose to be better prepared does not make any of us automatically fall into this:
Personally, I tend to doubt the good intentions of someone who goes for an armed stroll through a game preserve.
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YMMV
 
The normal concept of self-defense doesn't work there, because its the bears home, not the hikers, and bears are gonna do what bears do.
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You really aren't grasping this whole "Alaska" thing. Denali is a dot on the face of Alaska. Bears live even in our largest city - they estimate 40 grizzlies live within the city of Anchorage itself through 8 months of the year. Nobody has even tried to count the black bears, because they are simply too numerous.

People need to be able to carry arms even in the parks. But as Azak (and every other Alaskan on this board) has pointed out, there is no reason to descend into paranoia on the matter. The great majority of encounters can be be stopped just by standing and yelling, pepper spray, a shot into the ground, etc.
Sometimes that doesn't do the trick and sometimes there isn't time because events can unfold from very close range. When that happens you'd better have a firearm and you'd best use it.

This case in Denali sounds hokey to me for reasons I've laid out much earlier in the thread. I think they panicked. I think the woman ran instead of holding her ground. And if that's true, I hope they slap them with a fine and make it clear that people need to act responsibly.
 
I think they panicked. I think the woman ran instead of holding her ground. And if that's true, I hope they slap them with a fine and make it clear that people need to act responsibly.
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Sorry, but I don't see it that way. True, if she panicked and ran, it might have encouraged the bear to charge. But, as has been pointed out, the only way to tell whether a bear is making a false charge is when he doesn't eat you at the end of it.

A woods-wise Alaska native like you might have the experience to stand your ground, but in my book, shooting a bear that is apparently intent on attacking a human is responsible conduct.

Put it another way -- some gangsta yells at you, "I'm gonna kill you, sucker!" and pulls a gun out. Are you supposed to wait until he's actually fired at you to make sure he's not just funnin' you? :rolleyes:
 
But, as has been pointed out, the only way to tell whether a bear is making a false charge is when he doesn't eat you at the end of it.
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You've got it kind of bass-ackwards. If you WANT a grizzly to charge - run!

As for telling the difference between a false charge and a real attack, ask any Alaskan - or just read this thread.

I don't know if the woman running set off the charge, but that's a pretty common scenario. A good friend of mine was fly-fishing a few years back right here at the edge of town in the Buskin river. A brownie appeared on the opposite shore. My friend was in the water and his wife was behind him on the bank. He said something like "There's a bear over there, so don't run away but just walk slowly to the car and get in." Whereupon she immediately screamed and ran to the car. The bear lunged into the water and immediately charged - my friend started yelling (holding his ground) and the bear pulled up short and departed.

He stopped taking her fishing and had no further trouble with bears. The bottom line is that your behavior almost always dictates the bears behavior. If you aren't willing to learn that, or don't have the testicular fortitude to carry it through, then you shouldn't go into grizzly country.

I'll remind readers again, that much of coastal Alaska has a grizzly density of about 1 per square mile. Even in the interior, they're quite common and you'll run into them on a regular basis. You will end up in jail or with a heavy fine if you panic and shoot every time you see a bear.
 
Here is a video of a brown bear charge in Europe.
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I'd certainly shoot that bear, even though it's clearly signaling a bluff. It's just too close to take chances.

I just don't believe the nine shot fusillade from the hiker in this thread was in a situation anything like that.
 
Funny little bit of information. I lived in Alaska for some time and a buddy of mine, fish and game trooper told me the preferred bear gun was a 12 gauge but get this, they prefer #4 Buckshot, remember that word over 00 or slugs. The number four Buck just splatters a bear's head. I talked to several troopers and none used double 0 or never slugs.
 
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