AZ- NRA/ILA Alert: Lead Ammunition

It will screw me out of a day BOW-HUNTING with non-lead arrows, but I will be at this meeting with bells on.

Screw swflorida and anyone who looks like him. We are not here to make concessions. Give them an inch and they'll take the entire state. Just look at the People's Republik of Kalifornia...doesn't even resemble the USA anymore. As far as I'm concerned the pinkos have taken the west coast already. Arizona is the new "Western Front". Show up boys, this one is very important.
 
Screw swflorida and anyone who looks like him. We are not here to make concessions. Give them an inch and they'll take the entire state. Just look at the People's Republik of Kalifornia...doesn't even resemble the USA anymore. As far as I'm concerned the pinkos have taken the west coast already. Arizona is the new "Western Front". Show up boys, this one is very important.
California with a k...pinkos...slippery slope argument...

Credibility in my mind...*flush*
 
Sorry if I got out of hand with my terms but I really can't stand Kalifornia (yes, with a much-deserved 'K') politics. Even worse is that those disgusting concepts are trying to infect the great state of Arizona. Arizona is still a bastion of hope for freedom-loving Folk.

Playboypenguin, I would never question your love for guns (beautiful revolvers especially), but I can't believe any freedom-loving American would be in favor of an ammunition ban. Maybe I'm wrong, I respect you and I genuinely do not want to be the one to degrade this thread in any way. If I'm wrong, please detail the flaws in my post and I will seriously rethink the phrasing of my ideals. I know my ideas are solid and I will not concede, but I do respect your perspective and I'm sorry if I chose the wrong words to express myself. It's hard to hold back when I feel that my core beliefs are under attack by the antis.

Now is definitely NOT the time for in-fighting, so I hope my passion for the 2nd ammendment and freedom as a whole isn't mis-interpreted and I'm sorry if my words weren't as well-chosen as they would be if this was a less-critical juncture in time.

As far as I'm concerned we need to stick together now more than ever before.
 
Playboypenguin, I would never question your love for guns (beautiful revolvers especially), but I can't believe any freedom-loving American would be in favor of an ammunition ban. Maybe I'm wrong, I respect you and I genuinely do not want to be the one to degrade this thread in any way. If I'm wrong, please detail the flaws in my post and I will seriously rethink the phrasing of my ideals. I know my ideas are solid and I will not concede, but I do respect your perspective and I'm sorry if I chose the wrong words to express myself. It's hard to hold back when I feel that my core beliefs are under attack by the antis.
I am not in favor of weapons or ammunitions bans without seeing real evidence of danger and adequate solutions.

Nothing personal against you but one of my pet peeves, and IMHO one of the things that hurts the pro-gun movement the most (well except for ignorant rednecks with guns and video cameras that want to be on youtube), is people that support gun rights but lack the ability or desire to present a case without resorting to slippery slope arguments or tired old cliche's like accusations of communism, name calling, and general madman type ranting.

It makes the lot of us seem like rabid right wing nut jobs that just regurgitate Rush-isms and tow the radical line without thought or good intent. It makes all those people in the middle say to themselves "this guy really has nothing to say that I want to hear therefore the other side must be right."

Luckily here you are pretty much preaching to the choir but it helps to realize that such rhetoric turns off the very people you need to reach the most so it is not good to get into a habit of using it.
 
Thanks for taking the time to articulate your reasoning so elegantly. I genuinely appreciate it and I will choose my words more carefully in the future. I think in the end we're all fighting for the same thing.
 
Initial results of my rushed ballistics testing:

I built a box o' truth, but it turned out to be more of a box o' trash. The dimensions were 10" wide by 10" tall and 5' deep, roughly deep enough to hold 9-1 gallon water jugs that are about 6" deep.

It was built hurriedly and inexpensively; the first shot of Federal 150gr powershock softpoints proved how un-prepared that box was for the power of a .308 cartridge.

I blew the side off the thing with the water pressure wave of the first jug. The bullet, on impact, developed horizontal movement. It penetrated and shattered three water jugs then blasted through the 1/2" particle board wall to sail off into my sand berm.

So, my project wouldn't work for .308 levels of power. :mad:

I shifted my emphasis for that shooting session from the .308 to the other calibers I had prepared. First on deck: 44magnum, loaded with 240gr LSWC bullets made by Oregon Trail and pushed by AA#7 powder to a mid-range load, fired from a Ruger Redhawk with 4" barrel. (Load data will be available with the completed full report in a day or two.) The 44magnum fully penetrated six jugs of water and had moved far enough laterally at that point to escape the remaining three jugs left in my water bullet trap. Judging by the exit hole on the sixth jug, the bullet did not deform at all and probably would have penetrated all nine jugs of water. None of the perforated water jugs had any lead shavings or bullet segments settled at the bottom of the jug, indicating 100% (or near enough) weight retention of a lead cast bullet from a handgun.

Next up: The .357 magnum, loaded with 158gr LSWC bullets from a source I cannot remember and could not concretely identify from my old load data, but I think I bought them at Dillon Precision. The powder charge is with Titegroup, and the firing platform was a Ruger SP-101 with 3" barrel. The LSWC bullet behaved almost identically as its larger .429 diameter brother. It mowed through 5 jugs before moving off course, impacting off the particle board wall and off into the dirt berm. Final exit hole was perfectly circular, and there were no lead shavings in any of the perforated water jugs. Again, this indicated nearly 100% weight retention.

After getting a bit discouraged by the pistol testing and being unable to recover the bullets due to greater penetration and flight path variation than I expected, I moved to the .22LR. The firing platform for this series of tests was a Coast-to-Coast hardware model 42 semiautomatic rifle, made by Marlin. It's a copy of the Marlin 795.

I tested four ammunition brands.

#1. Winchester XPERT22. This is a solid lead projectile with a hollowpoint design, 36gr total weight. Upon firing, the hollowpoint sheared off on impact with the first jug and settled on the bottom of this container. The core of the bullet continued into the second jug and also settled to the bottom.

#2. CCI Stinger. This is a copper jacketed hollowpoint bullet that weighs 32gr. This bullet behaved almost identically to the Winchester XPERT, shearing off the hollowpoint in the first jug and having the core settle in the second water jug. The bulk of the nose of the bullet appeared to be thick copper with a layer of lead on the inside, but predominantly copper.

#3. CCI MiniMag. This is a copper plated lead bullet with a very slight hollowpoint design, 36gr. This bullet mushroomed beautifully and appears to have retained 100% of its weight. No lead fragments were visible in the first and second jugs that were fully penetrated, and there was only one large chunk of bullet in jug number three. From visible inspection, it appears to be the entire bullet. Subjectively, I was very impressed by this bullet's ability to penetrate the most deeply, mushroom the widest, and retain all of its weight in one piece.

#4. Federal Value Pack. This is a copper plated lead bullet with a hollowpoint design, 36gr. This bullet completely penetrated two water jugs and came to rest in the far wall of the third, acting as a plug for any further seepage. There were no lead fragments in any of the jugs, and the hollowpoint did not activate at all. The bullet's tip was mildly deformed but did not mushroom or separate at all.

I did not have a chance to test 7.62x54R or .308 since my box simply couldn't handle the power, but I decided to test my .30-30 as a final resort. I was hoping that it would be stopped by a full line of 9 water jugs, and that the flatpoint design would be less prone to re-direction from impact (even though the flat point didn't seem to help the wadcutter pistol loads).

The load was a commercial Winchester powerpoint .30-30 offering, 170gr. I fired the cartridge from a Winchester model 94 rifle. The jacketed flatpoint bullet penetrated five water jugs entirely, and came to rest in a sixth jug. Jugs 1-5 contained neither lead nor copper debris. Jug #6 appeared to contain the entire bullet, jacket intact, opened up into a sharp mushroom just a little less than 1/2 inch in diameter by guess.

Lessons learned:

#1 - The water pressure from powerful rifle cartridges is immense and a bullet trap box needs to be very well built to withstand this.

#2 - Bullets not designed to expand just sail on through soft medium like a hot knife through butter.

#3 - Bullets will deflect slightly when presented with resistance. I think this deflection is increased as velocity increases, but the final test with the .30-30 disproves that assumption. Regardless, I have to have a wider trap to catch the .308 loads I have cooked up.

Conclusions:

Lead or copper material construction has nothing to do with residual lead or copper poisoning in Condors or other scavengers. For a Condor to be poisoned by these materials, he has to ingest them. To ingest them, the bullet must fragment inside of the shot creature (the antelope/deer/javelina/etc that the hunter had shot). While not conclusive, my tests this weekend have demonstrated that lead-based ammunition exists that is capable of harvesting game in Condor territory that leaves no lead residue in kills that may escape harvesting.

If AZGFD is truly interested in regulating ammunition used in Condor territory, then a bullet-by-bullet forensic examination must be undertaken. Furthermore, bullets much be matched to the target game of a hunter. For example; a hunter might pursue an elk with a .308 rifle and put a 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet in the elk that, while suitable and approved for deer hunting, is not suitable in construction for bringing down elk. The bullet penetrates and expands but fails to fully penetrate to the targeted depth (or completely pierce out the opposite side). The animal evades the hunter and winds up dying in a small copse of trees. The light bullet mushroomed and sheared away from its jacket, leaving lead fragments in the bullet trail. Various scavengers ingest this lead while feeding off the carcass. Had the hunter used a 165-180gr design (perhaps a Nosler Partition), or a design that expanded less and penetrated more deeply, he might have harvested this animal. Even if the hunter failed to harvest the animal, the bullet would be more prone to retain its integrity and fully penetrate the targeted game (or at least remain intact and not fragment to become a hazard to scavengers).

But finally, the Condor is introduced as an experimental and non-essential species to Arizona. I see no reason to interfere with Arizona's hunting regulations for a scavenger bird that isn't even supposed to be here. There are many other eligible animals capable of doing the job of the Condor without being so succeptible to lead poisoning and such high maintenance; this is Darwin presenting his ultimate argument against this bird.
 
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