AZ- NRA/ILA Alert: Lead Ammunition

Already today several companies sell 100% copper bullets. Corbon makes the popular DPX (I think it's called) round. Would it kill you to shoot that?
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Do some research, please. Look at the price of lead compared to copper. Not only that, but copper is not as dense as lead. This makes it less effective in a number of ways. Just ask any hunters who have used steel shot. Ask them how much they like it. It's simply wonderful when you only wound and animal and it flies off to die a slow, painful death.:rolleyes: Sure there are alternatives to steel shot, but again, look at the price difference.
 
You guys scream so much at everything, lord....

Why not research first, think second, speak third.

In any case, hunters in AZ don't agree with you, go scream at them. Meanwhile, they're QUIETLY taking care of a LEAD PROBLEM (not a SECOND AMENDMENT problem), with maturity and action that is reasonable and appropriate. Have to go and get my Hearing Protection on, even off-line I'll be able to hear the howls of indignation., Bye....

Arizona Hunters Help Keep Condors Safe
Arizona Game and Fish Dept.


Posted on: 11/16/07 [Comments?]

Hunters in Arizona are proving to the critics that voluntary efforts to conserve endangered wildlife do work. So far this year, 80 percent of hunters have taken measures to reduce the amount of available spent lead ammunition in the California condor's core range.

Lead poisoning has been identified as the leading cause of death in endangered condors and the main obstacle to a self-sustaining population in Arizona. Studies show that lead shot and bullet fragments found in game carcasses and gut piles are the main source of lead in condors. Remains from game hunting provide an important food source for condors, but several birds can be affected by feeding off of one carcass or gut pile containing lead fragments since condors are group feeders.

"Many big game hunters on the Kaibab Plateau and Arizona Strip have voluntarily used non-lead ammunition to help condors since 2003, when Game and Fish began an educational outreach program," says Ron Sieg, regional supervisor for the Arizona Game and Fish Department's Flagstaff office. "Although we've made great strides in reducing lead available to condors, we're asking more hunters to join the cooperative conservation effort to further reduce lead availability in condor range and to avoid mandatory measures."

Arizona Game and Fish, and its partners the Arizona Deer Association, Arizona Elk Society, Arizona Antelope Foundation, Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society, and the Arizona Chapter of the National Wild Turkey Federation, ask hunters to continue sportsmen's proud tradition of wildlife conservation by using non-lead ammunition in condor range (Game Management Units 9, 10, 12A/B, and 13A/B).

Copper bullets offer hunters superior knock-down power, are less toxic, and do not fragment like lead ammunition. More than 90 percent of hunters agree that non-lead bullets perform as well as, or better than, lead bullets on game. Game and Fish started offering free non-lead ammunition in 2005 to hunters drawn for hunts in the condor's core range.

While these efforts have significantly reduced the lead available to condors, several challenges still remain. Radio tracking and visual observations this fall show that more than 60 percent of the Arizona condor population spent time foraging in southern Utah, which lacks a lead reduction program, during the fall hunt season. The Arizona Game and Fish Department is working with the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources to address the impact to the birds from spending periods of time in Utah.

In addition, access to non-lead ammunition poses limitations on the success of hunters' voluntary efforts. Ammunition manufacturers were unable to meet the demand this year for non-lead ammunition, as well as it is not available in all calibers. Many hunters were unable to find the non-lead ammunition needed for their rifles.

The condor is the largest flying land bird in North America. The birds can weigh up to 26 pounds and have a wingspan of up to 9 1/2 feet. Condors were first reintroduced in Arizona in 1996, and they now number 57 in the state. Visitors at the Grand Canyon and Vermilion Cliffs may be able to observe the birds, especially during the spring and summer.

Information on non-lead ammunition and how hunters can help is sent by mail to those drawn for hunts in condor range. For more information on condors and lead and a list of available non-lead ammunition, visit www.azgfd.gov/condor.
 
Copper bullets offer hunters superior knock-down power, are less toxic, and do not fragment like lead ammunition. More than 90 percent of hunters agree that non-lead bullets perform as well as, or better than, lead bullets on game. Game and Fish started offering free non-lead ammunition in 2005 to hunters drawn for hunts in the condor's core range.
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What a joke! The Arizona government told me it's true, so it must be.:rolleyes:

Sweeping statements like that are simply not true. How can something that is less dense than lead offer "superior knock-down power"? Many modern lead core hunting bullets retain near 100% of their weight. It depends on what you are hunting, and what bullets you use as far as fragmentation is concerned.

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.....
 
A hollow point copper bullet is just as effective as a hollow point lead bullet. The higher density of lead doesn't make its knock down factor any greater than that of a lighter copper bullet. The charge in the casing is put into the bullet, thus making the lighter copper bullet travel faster than the heavier lead bullet. The energy carried in the flying copper bullet is the same as in the flying lead bullet. The energy dump into the animal is in the end the same, and differet designs of the copper bullet can make it mushroom in any way you want.
 
sw_florida, energy isn't everything. Lighter bullets often have more energy than heavier bullets, but less momentum.

Penetration depth in fluid media is of course heavily dependent on the specific bullet design, but to generalize, momentum is the relevant ballistic quantity in determining penetration.

For example: Barnes makes all-copper bullets that penetrate well. Since they are made from a less dense material, and are constrained by the cartridge dimensions, they sacrifice weight and have less momentum than similar lead-core ammunition. In order to attain good penetration with less momentum, they control the bullet expansion, and significantly reduce the diameter of the expanded bullet. (Lack of fragmentation will help a bit too.)
 
SW Florida!

Lead will not ping of objects. Lead expands and adds to the effect required for the job at hand.

FMJ, steel core is classed as Amer pursing, bad juju, in some places.

Bismuth is the next best to lead. Not as good at the job. Much harder and again problem.

Zinc, could be good but again too hard and not good for the job!



Lead is a natural occurring element found in all dirt, earth and rocks known to man. Mostly only as a trace element but there!

Lead seems to only be a real problem in the state of Califoricated as per the MSDS.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach...ad-9927204+lead+MSDS&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us



Since we are being forced to use Florence bulbs in our lights, I suggest we use Mercury encapsulated in brass as a bullet of choice. I would be willing to bet less Mercury would be exposed to the public via Bullet then the Required Fluorescent bulbs. Tree People can't have it both ways! Do they know how many tons of Mercury will fill the land fills , offices and home via broken bulbs?

I will not take any Game with Mercury! I would deal with the lead or steel.
 
A hollow point copper bullet is just as effective as a hollow point lead bullet. The higher density of lead doesn't make its knock down factor any greater than that of a lighter copper bullet. The charge in the casing is put into the bullet, thus making the lighter copper bullet travel faster than the heavier lead bullet. The energy carried in the flying copper bullet is the same as in the flying lead bullet. The energy dump into the animal is in the end the same, and differet designs of the copper bullet can make it mushroom in any way you want.
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Nice Strawman argument! Well done, sir! :rolleyes:
 
It's just the law of physics. Does that make me a "Strawman", whatever that is?
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Let's see, you've ignored the posts of rwilson452, azredhawk44, nobody_special, Csspecs, MeekAndMild, homefires, and myself. You fail to admit you are wrong about anything. It's not the end of the world. We are all wrong sometimes. Get over it. Any further discussion with you is obviously a waste of time. Have fun living in your delusional world.

Yes, you are a Strawman. If you don't know what it is, look it up. I'm not your personal Google.

Have a nice day. Peace.
 
sw florida, work to ban lead in your state - stay out of mine. We like our lead bullets. I cast my own out of melted down wheelweights. Fun, efficient, cheap, and hasn't hurt a single condor.
If hunters are given free lead free ammo by our G&F, (never heard of that, and I sold ammo for a few years), that's great, but that's a voluntary thing, not mandated. All the all copper ammo I DID see for sale is no longer on the market. Fiocchi came out with lead free range ammo 7 years ago, was on the shelf/off the shelf.
homefires, I hope you meant armor piercing. Amer pursing sounds like your pursuing Americans.... But, steel core mil surpus ammo is not generally classified as AP unless BATFE has determined a handgun chambered in this caliber exists - refer to the famous ban on importing/selling the Chinese 7.62x39mm ammo after Olympic Arms made thier first AR pistol many years ago. Some of that policy may have been changed in the intervening years; I am no longer in the industry, and don't have any milsurp ammo any more. Much steel core 7.62x54R is available online, and it is not classified as AP. Probably because nobody is crazy enough to buy/build a pistol in that caliber...
Last time I checked, AZ does ban milsurp from hunting, as it is ball ammo, not designed to expand in soft tissue. Hunting ammo must be of an expanding nature. That is a more humane way to hunt.
And yes, some of this does come from the Calirefugees who disscovered that selling thier shack in SanFran makes enough money to buy a mansion in Tucson. Oh well. We will beat them again. Check our legislative record - we keep loosening firearm related laws, and have started it again - legislature went into session on the 7th, pro gun bills already filed. I'll ask my congresscritter to file one banning anyone from banning lead ammunition.
 
Tell ya what, guys:

Before the meeting on the 18th, I will do the following:

I've got some Hornady 165gr BTSP hunting bullets loaded up for my .308. I'll rig up my own "Box o' Truth" for this issue and pick up some Barnes similar bullets. We'll see what penetration does.

Right off the bat though, the Hornady 165gr BTSP has a ballistic coefficient of 0.435 and a sectional density of 0.248. The Barnes TSX 165gr offering has a BC of 0.404 and a SD of 0.253.

I choose this bullet offering since my rifle is an M1A and there is strong discouragement from all M14 manufacturers from firing anything 180 grains or heavier in the M14 gas system. My M1A is the rifle I am most likely to hunt with; either that or my Mosin Nagant in 7.62x54R, roughly the same power factor. Since Barnes does not offer a 180gr offering in .311 diameter (only a 150gr offering), I am unable to test the other caliber since I only shoot 180gr S&B softpoints, 180gr heavy ball surplus or 180gr handloads in this rifle to keep the sights regulated.

I will line up a series of water jugs and fire into them at 25 yards, and attempt to retrieve the bullet for expansion analysis. I'll use 10 1-gallon jugs for each test. That's about six feet of water to penetrate; I think it will be enough.

ETA:

I will test the following bullets in .308:
1. Hornady 165gr BTSP
2. Remington 165gr PSP
3. Barnes 165gr TSX
4. Federal 150gr FMJ "ball"

If my test box holds up long enough, I will also test:
1. 170gr Hornady FP .30-30
2. 170gr Remington RNFP .30-30
3. 180gr S&B 7.62x54R
4. 180gr Winchester Metric 7.62x54R
5. Whatever .30-06 my buddy has on hand.
6. Whatever .223 softpoints my buddy has on hand.
7. .22LR - CCI Stingers, Minimags, Winchester Xpert 22, Federal bulk pack
8. 240gr LSWC 44 magnum handloads
9. 158gr LSWC 357 magnum handloads
10. .36 caliber ball load from 1851 Navy replica

I will weigh each recovered bullet to see how much lead has escaped the body. After all, condors aren't in the habit of eating metal-clad rocks; they eat meat. To get lead in their system, the lead will have to escape the bulk of the bullet by fragmenting into small particles and embedding these micro-particles into the meat.

Facts to be recorded include:
1. Load data for all handloads
2. Weight of each projectile before and after firing
3. Calculated loss of mass
4. Number of jugs penetrated
5. Photographic image of bullet after impact
6. Subjective opinion of how the bullet opened up
7. Diameter of bullet's expansion at widest point
 
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Tell ya what, guys:

Before the meeting on the 18th, I will do the following:
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That's fine, but I nor anyone else here stated that two bullets of equal caliber, equal weight, equal velocity, and similar construction would have much difference in penetration. Others have posted that "Copper bullets offer hunters superior knock-down power". That's pure crap. Broad statements like that with no facts to back them up are exactly what I have a problem with. Here is another: ..."and do not fragment like lead ammunition". Really? What lead ammo? Unjacketed? Who uses unjacketed ammo in a high-powered rifle? Maybe they mean lead core ammo? Don't know because it doesn't say, just another broad statement with no facts to back it up. Here is another: "More than 90 percent of hunters agree that non-lead bullets perform as well as, or better than, lead bullets on game." Really? Where is this survey? Anyone have links to it? Who exactly are these hunters? What were they hunting? See my point?
Anyone who has even limited experience knows that good hunting bullets with lead cores work beautifully. No need for ammo that costs almost double that of standard ammo IMO. I never said that solid copper bullets don't work, hence my Strawman accusation which I still stand by.
 
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I've updated my test criteria after some good observations and constructive criticism from 625.

Can anyone come up with any other good tidbits to look for while running my experiment that would help our argument against banning lead?
 
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/species/condor/LERSC-Report.pdf

According to this document, Condors are designated a non-essential and experimental population in AZ.

Also, the key points endorsed by the Univ. of Minn California Condor Lead Exposure Reduction Steering Commitee are as follows:
UofM CCLERSC said:
• Retrieve all shot animals (including coyotes, varmints and small game) from
the field, or
• Hide carcasses or gut piles by burying them, covering them with brush or
rocks, or placing them in an area inaccessible to condors on the ground, or
• Remove bullets and surrounding impacted flesh when leaving carcasses or
gut piles in the field, or
• Simply use alternative non-toxic ammunition, in which case none of the above
items is needed
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There are other perfectly viable options to banning lead ammunition, especially for a species that really isn't even supposed to be here.

Those of you who are more experienced hunters than I, how do you feel about hunters who use an inappropriate more explosive, thin-skinned bullet (like a 168gr matchking, 150gr Nosler ballistic tip, etc) on larger game? More likely to fragment lead, right? But a solidly constructed bullet designed for large game hunting (Speer Hot-Cor, Remington PSP) will have less-to-no chance of fragmentation.
 
It could be replaced with pure silver, which has comparable density, or alloys of denser metals such as gold, platinum, tungsten, molybdenum, mercury, uranium, or plutonium. For obvious reasons, this is not appealing.
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Actually, I find the silver idea very appealing. You should always have a few of those around. You can't be too careful when it comes to werewolves. :D
 
Also:

http://www.savethecondor.com/pdfs/contamination.pdf

These people are concerned with COPPER levels in Condors!

What shall we shoot after that? Gold? :rolleyes:

TreeHuggingFruitCakes said:
Seventeen of the 35 dead condors examined by pathologists have not been tested for lead exposure. High-resolution lead and copper analysis techniques should be conducted on feathers that were growing at the time of death of the archived condors to determine the extent of lead and copper exposure in all condors that have died and been recovered since 1982.
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They're coming for guns, you guys. Not condors, not lead and not trees.

Guns.
 
WHOIS information for savethecondor.com:

Registrant:

Pedro Nava
P.O. Box 90459
Santa Barbara, CA 93190
US
Email: pedronava2006@yahoo.com

Pedro Nava is a California Assemblyman closely affiliated with a pro-illegal alien rights group called PUEBLO (People United for Economic Justice Building Leadership through Organizing).

Pedro Nava is lauded and endorsed by the Brady Campaign on their 2006 California campaign endorsements page.

Anything Nava touches has a taint of hoplophobia.
 
sw_florida said:
nobody special, all those years of study to no use, it sounds like.
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I'm not too worried about your opinion. :rolleyes:

If you don't understand the difference between energy and momentum, well, I suggest you educate yourself. In any case, I will not get into a flame-war over this.
 
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