Average "liberal" not really anti-gun?

I'm not misguded I just don't believe that a land with no gun control is good.
Show me one piece of proof, showing how less control is better.

Well I bet when you were young there weren't as many gays right?

Truth is things are more public now. Violence is what they sell on tv, especially the news.

Now I do agree values have dropped a lot since say my dad or grandad were kids and I would say that is a lot of the problem.

Maybe if people were to put a little more value on human life, I could understand less gun control but for now I don't.


But if you're wanting zero gun control then how can you say kids that are old enough to do chores and make money can't buy guns. That's denying rights?
So if every rep is so pro 2a why haven't they fixed this.
 
*sigh*

I grabbed the names from the rightest website I could find.. this article at NRO

This is the view of a conservative writer in a conservative publication. You have a problem with the identification? Take it up with them.
 
You're telling me all those R's that vote pro-gun on the hill do so because of their strong personal conviction about our 2nd amendment rights?
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That would be ideal, but if some of them are doing so because of party line; that is, to differentiate themselves from the opposition, then that is still something of substance. If my objective is to promote RKBA, then I will vote for those critters who are voting RKBA, whether they do so from personal conviction or because of party line. I want to do the best I can by RKBA.

Those who vote RKBA because of "strong personal conviction" are of course the more reliable votes. Those who vote RKBA because of party line are still a better choice than those who vote against RKBA because of their party line.

It's obvious to me by the voting record which parties have a pro-RKBA plank and which have an anti-RKBA plank. Is it obvious to you ?
 
That would be ideal, but if some of them are doing so because of party line; that is, to differentiate themselves from the opposition, then that is still something of substance. If my objective is to promote RKBA, then I will vote for those critters who are voting RKBA, whether they do so from personal conviction or because of party line. I want to do the best I can by RKBA.

Those who vote RKBA because of "strong personal conviction" are of course the more reliable votes. Those who vote RKBA because of party line are still a better choice than those who vote against RKBA because of their party line.

It's obvious to me by the voting record which parties have a pro-RKBA plank and which have an anti-RKBA plank. Is it obvious to you ?
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Of course it is. I've never said that it isn't. The thread title isn't "Average Democrat Congressmen anti-gun?"

What I (and others) have been saying is that there isn't necessarily a reason that it needs to be a partisan issue. If people can reach out to liberal fencesitters, and educate those that fear guns out of ignorance, then perhaps the Democrats would stop using gun control as a means to get votes. Wouldn't it be spiffy if we could actually get both parties to be pro-gun? And would it at least be better if we could get the Democrat party to be less anti-gun?

Plus, there are plenty of pro-gun liberals like me who aren't necessarily willing to just vote Republican in order to do the best we can by RKBA, as you put it. I have plenty of other concerns that are equally important to me as my gun rights.
 
What J.C. said. There's an apparent disconnect between the Dem platform and the Dem base. The question is "How do we take advantage of this if it's true"?
 
a lot of anti-gunners/liberals/neoconservatives are not against guns, but are rather against YOU having guns. They are elitists. In their mind, they can own them, police can have them, but you average people that are beneath them shouldn't.
 
SecDef

"*sigh*

I grabbed the names from the rightest website I could find.. this article at NRO

This is the view of a conservative writer in a conservative publication. You have a problem with the identification? Take it up with them."
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Honestly, when I saw your list the first two names that jumped right out were Baucus and Reid, two politicians whose views on guns are pretty much anti-2nd Amendment. Your including them on a list of supposed "pro-gun Democrats" leads me to believe that you aren't exactly well-versed on the subject of gun control in the US Senate.
 
You're telling me all those R's that vote pro-gun on the hill do so because of their strong personal conviction about our 2nd amendment rights?
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I am a proponent of the Second Amendment because it is a FREEDOM...
Not because I like guns... and I do like my guns...

The 2A is the foundation of, and a symbol of, and a protection for...
ALL our other FREEDOMS...

I think we should stop using the term "pro-gun" to define supporters of the Second Amendment.
 
I consider myself to be a...

Neolibcon from NYC. I don't know where on earth New Yorkers dug up the likes of Bloomberg, and how on earth they accepted that reverse carpetbagger, Hillary Clinton, and embraced her as their own, but if what has happened in D.C. is a sign of the future, then I suspect New York's Draconian rules against firearm ownership and CCW will disappear.;)
 
Neolibcon from NYC. I don't know where on earth New Yorkers dug up the likes of Bloomberg, and how on earth they accepted that reverse carpetbagger, Hillary Clinton, and embraced her as their own, but if what has happened in D.C. is a sign of the future, then I suspect New York's Draconian rules against firearm ownership and CCW will disappear.
Click to expand...

Funny that the only people that really like Hillary are her constituents.
 
If I'm not mistaken....

...her "constituents" were imported lesbo, tobacco chewin', trailer trash, hickabilly's from Arkansas...no self respecting NATIVE New Yorker cares for her kind, or the trash she brought with her.:eek: ;)
 
JuanCarlos...

saying "Democrat party" is a long-standing Republican talking point. As long as you continue to say that, frame-aware Democrats (like me) are going to think you're a closet Republican. It is the Democratic Party. "Democrat Party" is as offensive to Democrats as "Rethuglican" is to Republicans. Only right-wingers use that term.

As to the rest of this discussion, the reality is that the Right is as pro-gun as it's going to be. Whether individual legislators (regardless of party) vote on gun laws because of personal conviction or for partisan political advantage doesn't matter. Only the votes do.

Republican legislators have, by and large, been pro-gun. Which is fine, except for the fact that, "permanent majority" wishful thinking nonsense aside, there are two viable parties in our Government. We gun owners have pushed the Republicans as far into our corner as they're ever going to be, and there are about as many such legislators as there are ever going to be. Give or take the few required to move Congressional majorities in either direction. You aren't going to increase the number of pro-gun legislators by electing more Republicans, because the population of Republican voters is limited.

The only way to improve the situation for gun owners now is to work on the Democratic side of the equation. There are a lot of Democrats (I'm one of them) for whom gun rights are important, but who are also opposed to a lot of the what the modern Republican party stands for. You're not going to turn us into Republicans... don't bother trying. Instead, support us in our attempt to move the Democratic party on this issue.

If the only way you can see to improve the situation for American gun owners is to get more people to vote Republican, you're going to lose. Unless you are more concerned with electing Republicans than you are about gun rights, getting the Democratic party on our side of this issue is the best way forward.

This change is happening. Not fast enough for many of us, but it is happening. If you're really in favor of gun rights, you'll help, or at least stay out of the way. If your commitment to this cause only extends as far as it helps the Republican party, then you're not really on the sude of gun owners anyway, you're just using them... and you deserve nothing but contempt.

--Shannon
 
tube_ee said:
saying "Democrat party" is a long-standing Republican talking point. As long as you continue to say that, frame-aware Democrats (like me) are going to think you're a closet Republican. It is the Democratic Party. "Democrat Party" is as offensive to Democrats as "Rethuglican" is to Republicans. Only right-wingers use that term.
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Really? *shrug* Duly noted. I wonder why I kept typing it that way, because not that I look it it it really doesn't look right either.

Pointer said:
I think we should stop using the term "pro-gun" to define supporters of the Second Amendment.
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After seeing some of the responses in some of the other threads, I'm certainly not willing to use "pro-freedom." So what are my other options? To me, "pro-gun" is just a lot easier to type that "second amendment supporter."

EDIT: This is not to say that many second amendment supporters are not "pro-freedom." Just that since not all of them are, I prefer to be as accurate as possible when referring to them as a group.
 
saying "Democrat party" is a long-standing Republican talking point. As long as you continue to say that, frame-aware Democrats (like me) are going to think you're a closet Republican. It is the Democratic Party. "Democrat Party" is as offensive to Democrats as "Rethuglican" is to Republicans. Only right-wingers use that term.
Click to expand...
I was not aware of that either. I have never been a democrat so I have an excuse though. I guess you learn something new everyday.
 
"saying "Democrat party" is a long-standing Republican talking point. As long as you continue to say that, frame-aware Democrats (like me) are going to think you're a closet Republican......Only right-wingers use that term."
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I'm not a closet Republican, I am a Republican, and probably a "right-winger" in the eyes of some. I do have a T-shirt that says "Right-wing Gun Nut", if the truth be known. I've never called the Democratic party the "Democrat party", and I have no idea what the term "frame-aware" means. Someone care to help me out here ?
 
Help forthcoming:

'm not a closet Republican, I am a Republican, and probably a "right-winger" in the eyes of some. I do have a T-shirt that says "Right-wing Gun Nut", if the truth be known. I've never called the Democratic party the "Democrat party", and I have no idea what the term "frame-aware" means. Someone care to help me out here ?
Click to expand...

The "closet Republican" reference was to JuanCarlos, and was not intended as an accusation even to him. It's simply that referring to the Democratic Party as the "Democrat Party" is Republican/right-wing language, and any self-identified Democrat who uses that language is going to raise questions in the minds of other Democrats who are aware of it. JuanCarlos identified himself as a Democrat, then referred to his own party using right-wing language which was deliberately crafted to be insulting to Democrats. He probably shouldn't do that.

As a self-identified Republican, feel free to insult Democrats, if you wanna. But don't get bent out of shape when it goes the other way.

"Frame-aware" = "aware of 'framing'." "Framing" being the art of using coded or calculated language to construct rhetorical boxes in which you cannot lose the argument, or to create emotional responses favorable to your side. Constantly mentioning Iraq/Saddam and 9/11 in the same sentence is an example of this. You create the connection in the listeners' mind, without having to actually say that Saddam or Iraq was involved in 9/11. Frank Luntz is the master of this on the Republican side, and Republicans have recently been much better at this sort of thing than Democrats have been.

"Democrat Party" is an old Republican language trick. Dating back at least to the 1950s. Crafted to sound vaguely demeaning, and never used in a positive context. Democrats never use the term, unless they are unaware of this history, and think it's an accepted variant usage. It isn't, and should only be used by someone who is deliberately insulting Democrats.

"Never insult anyone by accident."

Hope that clears it up.

--Shannon
 
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