ATF: Reclassification of M855/SS109 ammo as armor-piercing
- Thread starter Bartholomew Roberts
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
Mosin-Marauder said:
???
You only have ONE representative in the House. Your state has two senators, but each congressional district has only one representative, and you can only vote in one congressional district. (At least, in theory.)
You can express your opinion to ANY and ALL of our elected representatives if you want. And they all have a degree of responsibility to listen to you, as you are a US citizen. That's the theory.
If you aren't their citizen, they're not really going to care as much, and the agenda driven politicians don't even listen to their own citizens much, that's the way the world is.
If you aren't their citizen, they're not really going to care as much, and the agenda driven politicians don't even listen to their own citizens much, that's the way the world is.
We saw it on every gun related forum, including this one...
"""Obama's not going to take our guns or ammo away...only an idiot thinks that will happen...you're paranoid and delusional if you believe that"""
tsk, tsk, tsk....looks like the "tin foil hat wearing ammo hoarders" were right all along.
"""Obama's not going to take our guns or ammo away...only an idiot thinks that will happen...you're paranoid and delusional if you believe that"""
tsk, tsk, tsk....looks like the "tin foil hat wearing ammo hoarders" were right all along.
Mosin-Marauder
New member
I typed in my area code and got Virginia Foxx and Robert Pittenger for some reason. Oddly enough he is the representative to where I will be moving shortly. I figured contacting the other wouldn't hurt the cause. 2 is better than 1 and all that. 
Banning green tip is just the beginning.
5.45x39 will go through bullet-proof vests
FN Fiveseven will go through bullet-proof vests
7.62x39 will go through bullet-proof vests
5.56 will go through 3a law enforcement body armor
I think it's a good guess that other ammunition will be banned eventually.
5.45x39 will go through bullet-proof vests
FN Fiveseven will go through bullet-proof vests
7.62x39 will go through bullet-proof vests
5.56 will go through 3a law enforcement body armor
I think it's a good guess that other ammunition will be banned eventually.
The bottom line is this... The ammo retailers advertise things to have certain characteristics, whether or they've been designed as such or not...
In the case of green tip, I've seen numerous ads over the years labeling it as "penetrator" ammo
Marketing has proven the legal downfall of many firearm related items
In the case of green tip, I've seen numerous ads over the years labeling it as "penetrator" ammo
Marketing has proven the legal downfall of many firearm related items
Maybe so. From what I have read and seen in videos, steel content is not required in order to penetrate body armor/bullet proof vests. But I feel that the content of the bullet is not the concern for those looking to exploit the situation.
As has been said before, green tip is just the beginning or "test bed" for future bannings.
Crankgrinder
New member
I'm not sure if it will pass or not. From what I understand the bullets construction in its materials and design does not meet the criteria to be legally banned and a ban on it now would overturn thirty years of law and that's hard to do. The law we have bans ap pistol ammunition and the .223 was never designed as a pistol round but "pistols" if that's what you want to call them have been made for them. In my book that doesn't make it a pistol round. There are "pistols" that shoot .308 also and it is not a "pistol round" because of that. Almost any hunting round has the power to defeat body armor but bans on it have not been considered regardless of its materials made from. This has nothing to do with "armor piercing" because we all know m855 is not. It is about political disdain for ar15s only, and I see it as an underhanded thing that a desperate person would try.
I cannot state this enough.
IF YOU HAVE TIME TO READ THIS FORUM AND TYPE A COMMENT, YOU HAVE TIME TO TAKE ACTION!!!
If you have not done so already. Contact the BATFE, and you reps and senators. Sign the Whitehouse Petition.
You may not think it will do any good. But doing nothing will DEFINATELY do no good.
This is not simply an issue with SS109/M885 ammunition, this is an issue with unelected bureaucrats arbitrarily bending laws to make them fit into an agenda. It's a frighteningly reoccurring theme lately with the 7N6 ammo, Sig brace, and now the SS109.
Who knows what will be next?
IF YOU HAVE TIME TO READ THIS FORUM AND TYPE A COMMENT, YOU HAVE TIME TO TAKE ACTION!!!
If you have not done so already. Contact the BATFE, and you reps and senators. Sign the Whitehouse Petition.
You may not think it will do any good. But doing nothing will DEFINATELY do no good.
This is not simply an issue with SS109/M885 ammunition, this is an issue with unelected bureaucrats arbitrarily bending laws to make them fit into an agenda. It's a frighteningly reoccurring theme lately with the 7N6 ammo, Sig brace, and now the SS109.
Who knows what will be next?
I do agree with those of you that suggest doing something to try to stop this. Yes, things are definitely out of kilter in Washington. But, not to be pessimistic, I wouldn't hold out hope.
Last November, America spoke loud and clear at the polling booth. That is our ultimate voice. Raise your hand if you see any positive changes on the horizon.
Last November, America spoke loud and clear at the polling booth. That is our ultimate voice. Raise your hand if you see any positive changes on the horizon.
JeepHammer
Moderator
I have respect for everyone and their particular view point,
Here is mine,
I have a good friend, 4 tours in the sand box, Master Trooper with the Indiana State Police, and the post armor.
He is a RABID firearms supporter!
Thinks that anyone without a Felony or Mental Illness should be able to own full automatic without special regesteration...
If that tells you anything.
What he found out is...
1. In the 80s, the tungsten core bullets would slice through 'Soft' body armor like a hot knife through butter,
Penetrate 'Trauma' plates like butter,
Continue through the body and out the back side without slowing down much...
Even when fired from handgun length barrels.
The Tungsten core maker stopped making the cores,
So manufacturers started using steel.
2. Congress/BATFE passed the 'Cop Killer' bullet ban,
No 'Armor Piercing' "Hand Gun" ammo.
No HAND GUN 'AP' AMMO, PERIOD.
This included 'Duplex' rounds, steel cores (round balls, darts, pointed cores) in hand gun ammo.
No restrictions on RIFLE ammo.
3. The BATFE has registered more than 3 MILLION AR style semi-auto 'Pistols', and that was just the last 10 years or so...
AR Pistols had been around for a while, but in the last 10 years or so, they have been mass produced and retailed in VOLUME.
4. This puts the .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm (NATO) rounds SQUARELY in the 'Hand Gun' category since the AR style pistols are being mass produced.
This is NOT just a few guys building a 'Pistol' out of an AR anymore.
No one with a brain can argue this point, over 3 MILLION in 10 years is a TREND, no question about a .223/5.56 handgun anymore.
5. While no Police/Federal employees have been killed (YET... At this time, today)
These SS109/M855 rounds are showing up in AR style handguns,
Have been used in shootouts, and are readily available.
6. One reason this is getting attention,
And not widely publicized,
The DRUG CARTELS in MEXICO are using these rounds in cross border shootings.
Since most of the weapons/ammo in Mexico is coming from the US, it was inevitable.
Border Patrol vehicles have been turned into swiss cheese by these rounds, and it's scaring the hell out of the Border Patrol and Homeland Security,
Which is pushing this particular 'Ban'.
7. The Indiana State Police have found an increasing number of AR 'Pistols', both registered as pistols, and illegal 'Shorties' top ends on rifle lowers,
More than 300 last year alone.
In the south west district alone, more than 40 magazines of 'Green Tip' ammo have shown up in search/seizures in the last year.
Much of this ammo is showing up in 'Hispanic' gang related raids. It seems to be real popular with the Hispanic bad guys for some reason...
To be fair, most of the 'Hispanic Gang' members are NOT 'Mexican',
Mostly from Central American countries, not Mexico.
------------------
PERSONAL FEELINGS ABOUT 'GREEN TIP' AMMO AND CRIMINALS...
It's just a matter of time until we lose a good trooper to the 'Green Tip' that WILL PENETRATE the ISP body armor, In one side, out the other in on site testing last year at my local range...
---------------
PERSONAL OPINION,
I'm what some would call a 'Long Range' shooter,
300 to 600 yards regularly,
I find the very idea of an AR 'Pistol' an absurd idea,
Built by people that either just want to do it without asking *IF* THEY SHOULD do it,
Or what the ramifications will be....
The .223/5.56 round is a long barrel RIFLE round,
Always has been, always will be.
And pumping it through a pistol length barrel is a waste of time and ammo,
Along with creating problems for the legitimate rifle shooters.
I don't find the 'Green Tip' accurate, so I don't use them.
This won't make a difference in my reloading, or my factory ammo purchases.
The AR 'Pistol' is a device for turning money into noise, and nothing more.
It's a LOUSY Personal Defense Weapon,
It's ILLEGAL when fired from the shoulder,
It's muzzle velocity makes it VERY inaccurate,
It's nothing more than a 'Show Off' device for kids of all ages that haven't grown up yet, or respect firearms...
Probably shouldn't own firearms of any kind until they learn respect and proper usage...
But like I clearly stated, that's personal opinion.
Here is mine,
I have a good friend, 4 tours in the sand box, Master Trooper with the Indiana State Police, and the post armor.
He is a RABID firearms supporter!
Thinks that anyone without a Felony or Mental Illness should be able to own full automatic without special regesteration...
If that tells you anything.
What he found out is...
1. In the 80s, the tungsten core bullets would slice through 'Soft' body armor like a hot knife through butter,
Penetrate 'Trauma' plates like butter,
Continue through the body and out the back side without slowing down much...
Even when fired from handgun length barrels.
The Tungsten core maker stopped making the cores,
So manufacturers started using steel.
2. Congress/BATFE passed the 'Cop Killer' bullet ban,
No 'Armor Piercing' "Hand Gun" ammo.
No HAND GUN 'AP' AMMO, PERIOD.
This included 'Duplex' rounds, steel cores (round balls, darts, pointed cores) in hand gun ammo.
No restrictions on RIFLE ammo.
3. The BATFE has registered more than 3 MILLION AR style semi-auto 'Pistols', and that was just the last 10 years or so...
AR Pistols had been around for a while, but in the last 10 years or so, they have been mass produced and retailed in VOLUME.
4. This puts the .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm (NATO) rounds SQUARELY in the 'Hand Gun' category since the AR style pistols are being mass produced.
This is NOT just a few guys building a 'Pistol' out of an AR anymore.
No one with a brain can argue this point, over 3 MILLION in 10 years is a TREND, no question about a .223/5.56 handgun anymore.
5. While no Police/Federal employees have been killed (YET... At this time, today)
These SS109/M855 rounds are showing up in AR style handguns,
Have been used in shootouts, and are readily available.
6. One reason this is getting attention,
And not widely publicized,
The DRUG CARTELS in MEXICO are using these rounds in cross border shootings.
Since most of the weapons/ammo in Mexico is coming from the US, it was inevitable.
Border Patrol vehicles have been turned into swiss cheese by these rounds, and it's scaring the hell out of the Border Patrol and Homeland Security,
Which is pushing this particular 'Ban'.
7. The Indiana State Police have found an increasing number of AR 'Pistols', both registered as pistols, and illegal 'Shorties' top ends on rifle lowers,
More than 300 last year alone.
In the south west district alone, more than 40 magazines of 'Green Tip' ammo have shown up in search/seizures in the last year.
Much of this ammo is showing up in 'Hispanic' gang related raids. It seems to be real popular with the Hispanic bad guys for some reason...
To be fair, most of the 'Hispanic Gang' members are NOT 'Mexican',
Mostly from Central American countries, not Mexico.
------------------
PERSONAL FEELINGS ABOUT 'GREEN TIP' AMMO AND CRIMINALS...
It's just a matter of time until we lose a good trooper to the 'Green Tip' that WILL PENETRATE the ISP body armor, In one side, out the other in on site testing last year at my local range...
---------------
PERSONAL OPINION,
I'm what some would call a 'Long Range' shooter,
300 to 600 yards regularly,
I find the very idea of an AR 'Pistol' an absurd idea,
Built by people that either just want to do it without asking *IF* THEY SHOULD do it,
Or what the ramifications will be....
The .223/5.56 round is a long barrel RIFLE round,
Always has been, always will be.
And pumping it through a pistol length barrel is a waste of time and ammo,
Along with creating problems for the legitimate rifle shooters.
I don't find the 'Green Tip' accurate, so I don't use them.
This won't make a difference in my reloading, or my factory ammo purchases.
The AR 'Pistol' is a device for turning money into noise, and nothing more.
It's a LOUSY Personal Defense Weapon,
It's ILLEGAL when fired from the shoulder,
It's muzzle velocity makes it VERY inaccurate,
It's nothing more than a 'Show Off' device for kids of all ages that haven't grown up yet, or respect firearms...
Probably shouldn't own firearms of any kind until they learn respect and proper usage...
But like I clearly stated, that's personal opinion.
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
But the BATFE does not "register" AR pistols. As handguns, they are subject to the dealer having the buyer fill out a 4473, but that stays in the gun shop. It doesn't immediately get added to a registry somewhere.JeepHammer said:
Are you perhaps thinking of short-barrel rifle versions of the AR? You need a $200 tax stamp for those, so they must be on a list or registry of some sort.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
JeepHammer said:
AR15 "pistols" are pistols that make a Walker Colt look like a pocket pistol. They weight around 4.75lbs and even with a 10" barrel, are just barely under (about 25.5") the minimum overall length for a rifle (26") under federal law. So essentially these "pistols" are between 0.5lb-3lbs lighter and 0.5" shorter than a rifle. They aren't concealable. Nobody is going to be tucking one into their waistband and going out to sell drugs. They are barely more concealable than perfectly legal rifles - and often a lot less reliable.
Yeah, that's patent nonsense. M855 is ball ammo with a 10gr mild steel cap. It is pretty much the same as regular jacketed FMJ ammo in every way except the steel makes it longer for the same weight (better ballistic coefficient) and gives it enough hardness to penetrate 10ga mild steel at extreme distances (600yds) where normal ball bleeds off too much energy due to the worse BC. They aren't any more dangerous to Border Patrol vehicles than ball ammo. In fact, problems with vehicles and other barriers lead both the Marines and Army to drop M855 and change to more effective rounds.
The only thing "green tip" ammo does better than regular FMJ ammo is penetrate 10ga mild steel at 600yds and have a better ballistic coefficient. However, ALL 5.56x45mm ammo will penetrate soft body armor. Even the small, fragile 45gr JHP varmint rounds will penetrate soft body armor. Banning "green tip" ammo does exactly nothing to improve officer safety; but it does create an enormous burden for law-abiding citizens.
For example, you live in Illinois. While possession of "green tip" ammo will not be illegal under federal law, it will be illegal under your state law. If you are a competitive target shooter who has purchased a bunch of M855 in order to practice cheaply and live in Illinois, you are going to be in violation of state law as soon as M855 is reclassified. You are now a criminal and officers are still in the exact same amount of danger as previously.
You could even argue officers are in more danger; because while M855 will not penetrate Level III AR500 Plate Armor, regular old lead FMJ will penetrate Level III AR500 Plate Armor because of its higher velocity. So by forcing M855 off the market, you are basically pushing people into ammunition that has better penetration characteristics (though once again, any rifle caliber ammunition will penetrate soft body armor - that's why it is rifle caliber ammo).
And you should be very involved and very concerned about this memo.
1) Did you notice the part where ATF argues that there is no "particular sporting purpose" for any type of multi-shot handgun? Have you considered the implications of allowing that statement to go unchallenged?
2) Are you OK with ATF banning one of the most popular sporting types of ammunition in the United States just because there is a single multi-shot handgun in the ordinary channels of commerce? In this memo, ATF is saying that even if 40 million shooters use that ammo every day for sporting purposes, they can (and will) ban it if a single multi-shot handgun chambered for that ammo enters the ordinary channels of commerce. THIS is how ATF proposes to interpret the words "primarily intended for sporting purpose" in the legislation.
If you don't have a problem with either of those things, then I don't know what to tell you.
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Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
By the way, Rep. Bob Goodlatte's letter (Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee that oversees ATF and their budget) on this matter has gathered 172 co-signers in just two days. The Senate is also going to take up this issue; so keep up the pressure! Your communications are being heard.
172 co-signers means we are only 44 members short in the House of having a majority necessary to pass legislation clarifying this matter in the House - and since that is just after two days of effort, chances are good we can hit that number with proper encouragement from constituents.
172 co-signers means we are only 44 members short in the House of having a majority necessary to pass legislation clarifying this matter in the House - and since that is just after two days of effort, chances are good we can hit that number with proper encouragement from constituents.
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