ATF Project Gunrunner

USAFNoDak said:
I believe he just admitted that F&F was indeed a program meant to expose lax gun laws (in the minds of anti gun ideologists such as Holder and Obama) in the USA as a major source of guns for the mexican drug cartels. We'll never hear them admit that, but call it one of those "gut check" intuition feelings one occasionally gets.
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I think you have bought into their brainwash.

F&F had nothing to do with keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, and it had nothing to do with bringing down the heads of Mexican cartels. The guns were going to Mexico and they knew it, so it wasn't about keeping guns out of the hands of American criminals. And there were NO assets or mechanisms in place in Mexico to track the guns -- in fact, the U.S. didn't even let the Mexicans or our own personnel in Mexico know about the operation -- so any claim that they were intending to track the guns to cartel big-wigs is clearly spurious.

In fact, the intent of the program was specifically to put American guns -- that could be traced to the United States, and to straw purchasers in the United States -- INTO the hands of Mexican criminals, with the full intent that these guns WOULD be used to commit crimes. And after they were used, they would be recovered by the Mexicans and traced to the U.S. thereby bolstering the false claim that American gun shops are arming the Mexican cartels. The administration and the BATFE knew exactly what these guns would be used for, and they viewed the crime victims as collateral damage. The only thing they didn't anticipate was that one (or two or three, but who's counting) of the guns would be used to kill a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

Unintended consequences ...
 
Ding, ding, ding we have a winner! If this was any other entity the RICO charges would be well underway as they should still be for this criminal enterprise.
 
zxcvbob wrote:

So basically Holder is testifying to Congress that he doesn't do anything. Someone should be asking, "What exactly are we paying you for?", and making noises about defunding his office.

Seems like a reasonable question, think anyone from Obama et al, SA might come up with an answer?
 
Re jimpeel in post # 1514:

I expect that push coming to shove, if it ever did, Mr. Holder would be eligible, as long as Obama is in office, for whatever he might need in the way of presdidential pardons.

Can the president pardon himself?
 
A repeat from my earlier post, since some seem to have missed it:

Holder also admitted to Leahy that Iowa Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley handed him letters in person in late January, months before Holder previously claimed he knew of the controversial initiative of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE).
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If you go waaay back in this thread, you can read Grassley's letters. They are the kind of letters that would get your attention, especially if handed to you in person by a Senator.

Senator Grassley brought this program to Holder's attention PERSONALLY in January.

January is more than "a few weeks" from May. During that time period, discussion of this issue advanced quite a bit here on TFL, but apparently, Holder learned nothing about the program. Did not even pick up the name Fast and Furious.

Incompetent or lying. Those are the choices. I guess lying.
 
Incompetent or lying. Those are the choices. I guess lying.
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I guess both, but the degrees of each vary, depending on the specific....making it harder to assign a motive. It's a sliding scale.
 
Interesting letter indeed. Of course, the timing stinks, but let's look beyond that:

“I am sorry for the tragic loss of your son, U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry. Brian was a hero who served his nation bravely and made the ultimate sacrifice,” writes Holder in a letter dated Wednesday. “I agree with you that the tactic of allowing guns to ‘walk,’ as was permitted in Operation Fast and Furious, is completely unacceptable.”
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I'm sorry. I think it is a terrible thing that Agent Terry was murdered by criminals who should never have gotten across our border, and that the weapons used were available due to our BATFE engaging in illegal activities. But ... what, exactly, did Brian Terry do that makes him a "hero"?

Nothing.


Holder said that he was willing to meet with the Terry family to answer their questions about what happened.

“I would welcome the opportunity to meet with you in person to discuss our shared concerns. I give you my word that we will do everything in our power to bring those responsible for Brian’ s death to justice,” wrote Holder.
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Translation: We'll keep pursuing the Mexican gunmen as long as it provides a suitable smokescreen for our people, who provided the weapons.
 
^ Right,

It's no surprise, we were just sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I think when these sorts of things happen though, it adds weight to the argument that a special prosecutor is needed.

Another interesting thing in the article is that Ronald Weich is going to be coming back to explain to the commitee why he stated in February that guns had not been walked into Mexico as part of Fast and Furious.
 
C0untZer0 said:
Another interesting thing in the article is that Ronald Weich is going to be coming back to explain to the commitee why he stated in February that guns had not been walked into Mexico as part of Fast and Furious.
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Bah. We're dealing with political animals -- who are cornered. They'll play every word for whatever nuance they can squeeze out of it. Remember, "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is"?

So he testified that no guns had been walked. He'll probably come back and "clarify" that by that statement he meant that no BATFE agents had personally carried or escorted any firearms across the border.

"It depends on what the meaning of 'walked' is."
 
On one of the Fox Sunday News programs a guest made the following statements concerning Holder's testimony before congress.

When an attorney has the facts on his side he argues the facts. When he has the law on his side he argues the law. When he has neither the facts or the law he pounds the table. Holder is pounding the table.

This thing is rapidly coming to the tipping point. I just hope it does not topple at the AG's Office but at the highest level. I hope that it takes out all of the players in all departments.

The scoundrells at State. Justice. Homeland Security and the White House all need to go down.
 
ltc444 wrote:
On one of the Fox Sunday News programs a guest made the following statements concerning Holder's testimony before congress.

When an attorney has the facts on his side he argues the facts. When he has the law on his side he argues the law. When he has neither the facts or the law he pounds the table. Holder is pounding the table.

This thing is rapidly coming to the tipping point. I just hope it does not topple at the AG's Office but at the highest level. I hope that it takes out all of the players in all departments.

The scoundrells at State. Justice. Homeland Security and the White House all need to go down.
----------------------------------

Likely, the responsible parties will be promoted. The elevator operators or similar persons will be sacrificed.

C0untZer0 provided the following link:http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ing-witnesses/
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Just my take, but from the way things have been going or should I say not going, I would expect there would have been contempt citations by now. Have there been any such?
 
office-space-bobs.jpg


"Eric, Kevin...what do ya do?"
 
I do believe that the murder of American Agents and citizens with guns bought and paid for with tax payer money and purposely released to arm drug dealers with zero chance of preventing any crime equals a "High Crime" as mentioned in the that pesky Constitution.

I understand that in some nations arming people to kill your own citizens and government agents could be considered something akin to treason... Arming an attack on the citizens of this nation is a serious crime.

I am not a lawyer and never played one on tv. :) But it does seem to me that however high this intentional act goes, all the players that approved it need to be prosecuted with zero pleading down the crimes..
 
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