ATF Project Gunrunner
- Thread starter Al Norris
- Start date
HarrySchell
New member
It's possible she wasn't briefed. "Her troops" would be at risk and if she had a conscience, she might...er...think about that, how it might play out when someone working for her caught a round or two from Barack's Bright Idea to Promote Gun Bans.
Then again, she is hardly as educated as Holder or Obama, and might be perceived as a weak link, despite the androgynous roundness she shares with other useful appatchicks Obama has selected.
I insult Ms. Napolitano (whenever I can), but it is possible she is telling a truth even she finds incredible, and is bound to separate herself from, regardless of whatever prospects her ambition seeks. Some things are too dirty, even for the dirty and ambitious.
That said, I wouldn't vote for Nappy to make her dogcatcher in a town of 200. People, that is.
Then again, she is hardly as educated as Holder or Obama, and might be perceived as a weak link, despite the androgynous roundness she shares with other useful appatchicks Obama has selected.
I insult Ms. Napolitano (whenever I can), but it is possible she is telling a truth even she finds incredible, and is bound to separate herself from, regardless of whatever prospects her ambition seeks. Some things are too dirty, even for the dirty and ambitious.
That said, I wouldn't vote for Nappy to make her dogcatcher in a town of 200. People, that is.
JustThisGuy
New member
The Smoking Gun
Pajamas Media ran an article yesterday that lays out the who, how and why (the whole sordid story) on Fast & Furious.
http://pjmedia.com/blog/smoking-gun...ts-but-not-wanted-by-cartels/?singlepage=true
The smoking gun is that the guns that were being walked across the border to Mexican Cartels were:
1) Bought more cheaply on the black market than from U.S. Gun Dealers.
2) The specific guns that anti-gun organizations were naming to get banned (AK and AR "Assault Rifles" and 50BMG weapons).
3) Involved gun shops were told by ATF specifically which and how many guns they should order to fill upcoming straw purchases.
4) Monies for the straw purchases were furnished by an FBI informant to otherwise indigent individuals who were told where, what and how many to buy.
5) The straw purchased guns were directed to the hands of specific Mexican Criminal Gangs especially known for their violence and tendency towards mass murder such that the greatest possible number of casualties could be traced to the recipients or the straw purchased weapons.
This was not the story for Fast & Furious alone. Remember please that similar operations were underway in 9 additional cities. Approximately 2,000 known AK/AR .50BMGs were put into criminal hands under Fast & Furious alone. As one of 10 ongoing operations of an exactly similar nature, perhaps up to 20,000 guns were placed into the hands of Mexican, US and other nationality Criminal Gangs, all without the consent or information of local law enforcement in the affected areas and with no way to trace the weapons except when they turned up at crime scenes. All to serve a gun-control agenda.
This was truly an outrage of the highest order. Every willing government participant should serve long, hard time for this government sponsored criminal conspiracy.
Pajamas Media ran an article yesterday that lays out the who, how and why (the whole sordid story) on Fast & Furious.
http://pjmedia.com/blog/smoking-gun...ts-but-not-wanted-by-cartels/?singlepage=true
The smoking gun is that the guns that were being walked across the border to Mexican Cartels were:
1) Bought more cheaply on the black market than from U.S. Gun Dealers.
2) The specific guns that anti-gun organizations were naming to get banned (AK and AR "Assault Rifles" and 50BMG weapons).
3) Involved gun shops were told by ATF specifically which and how many guns they should order to fill upcoming straw purchases.
4) Monies for the straw purchases were furnished by an FBI informant to otherwise indigent individuals who were told where, what and how many to buy.
5) The straw purchased guns were directed to the hands of specific Mexican Criminal Gangs especially known for their violence and tendency towards mass murder such that the greatest possible number of casualties could be traced to the recipients or the straw purchased weapons.
This was not the story for Fast & Furious alone. Remember please that similar operations were underway in 9 additional cities. Approximately 2,000 known AK/AR .50BMGs were put into criminal hands under Fast & Furious alone. As one of 10 ongoing operations of an exactly similar nature, perhaps up to 20,000 guns were placed into the hands of Mexican, US and other nationality Criminal Gangs, all without the consent or information of local law enforcement in the affected areas and with no way to trace the weapons except when they turned up at crime scenes. All to serve a gun-control agenda.
This was truly an outrage of the highest order. Every willing government participant should serve long, hard time for this government sponsored criminal conspiracy.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Holder is going to testify on Dec. 8 according to CBSNews.
Also, let's increase the level of maturity if we discuss someone. I don't need junior high humor - had to delete such.
Also, let's increase the level of maturity if we discuss someone. I don't need junior high humor - had to delete such.
JustThisGuy
New member
My brother cautions that high-level involvement in F&F doesn't pass the smell test. This is what I told him.
Because the ATF and FBI ran similar operations in ten cities, it is clear that there was high level clearance in both organizations. The program was coordinated between the ATF and FBI.
The likelihood of two agencies becoming independently involved in what was clearly an illegal operation is to me at least extremely thin unless they were directed to do so by DOJ. I understand that this has been confirmed by whistle-blowers who have stated that DOJ was read-in on the project.
If there were no complaints from DOJ, that says to me that it was the point of origin or else there would have been heads rolling at the first inkling of such an illegal operation if DOJ were operating according to their mission..
The fact that there has been no outrage, but rather complicit acquiescence by State and DHS (such as Janet Napolitano's testimony before Congress and public statements from Hillary Clinton) indicates that they too were read in on the project and were complying with a common directive to all these agencies.
There's your smell test.
Because the ATF and FBI ran similar operations in ten cities, it is clear that there was high level clearance in both organizations. The program was coordinated between the ATF and FBI.
The likelihood of two agencies becoming independently involved in what was clearly an illegal operation is to me at least extremely thin unless they were directed to do so by DOJ. I understand that this has been confirmed by whistle-blowers who have stated that DOJ was read-in on the project.
If there were no complaints from DOJ, that says to me that it was the point of origin or else there would have been heads rolling at the first inkling of such an illegal operation if DOJ were operating according to their mission..
The fact that there has been no outrage, but rather complicit acquiescence by State and DHS (such as Janet Napolitano's testimony before Congress and public statements from Hillary Clinton) indicates that they too were read in on the project and were complying with a common directive to all these agencies.
There's your smell test.
Last edited:
HarrySchell
New member
As to the smell test, raging gunfights along the US border would fit nicely to the rationale for the proposed UN Small Arms Treaty, which Obama, Hillary and cadre find tasty.
There are so many announced agendas served by enhancing the nightmare down south and blaming it on US gun laws (har!) and drugs, while the public rationale of tracking to bad guys is so pathetic, incompetence fails as an excuse. The scale of the op also kills the "rogue agent" meme.
There isn't a way Obama, Holder and Clinton didn't know, or that ATF did this on their own. Can't get there from here.
There are so many announced agendas served by enhancing the nightmare down south and blaming it on US gun laws (har!) and drugs, while the public rationale of tracking to bad guys is so pathetic, incompetence fails as an excuse. The scale of the op also kills the "rogue agent" meme.
There isn't a way Obama, Holder and Clinton didn't know, or that ATF did this on their own. Can't get there from here.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
csmsss said:
You've posted pretty much that same general theme in previous posts in this thread:
Starting on Page 5, Post #105
Post #134, Page 6
Post #504, Page 21
Post #565, Page 23
Post #569, Page 23
Post #572, Page 23
Post #577, Page 24
Post #586, Page 24
Post 591, Page 24
Post #596, Page 24
Post #604, Page 25
Post #661, Page 27
Post #665, Page 27
Post #1089, Page 44
Post #1225, Page 49
Post #1229, Page 50
Post #1232, Page 50
Post #1290, Page 52
Post #1324, Page 53
Post #1327, Page 54
Post #1336, Page 54
I think by this point, we all understand that you are skeptical Congress has the power to deliver justice on this. I would feel safe saying that even a casual reader of the thread understands your position on this clearly.
What I am having difficulty understanding is why you are once again reiterating that point?
On the bright side, it looks like Melson felt it was in his best interest to testify before Congress with his private attorney's present despite your belief that Issa's Committee has neither carrot nor stick, and it appears AG Holder will testify publicly on December 8th in front of the Committee, despite your earlier skepticism on that point (see Page 54) as well. So who knows? If you wait and see, maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Not everyone is willing to perjure themselves, especially if they think they'll get caught. If the Republicans win the Whitehouse next year, there could potentially be criminal indictments if they did. While I don't think that is likely for the cabinet level players, it could happen at fairly senior levels given the right set of facts and circumstances. It's this potential that might spur some to come clean if called to testify.
Lanny Breuer has some regrets
Now that there is proof he knew of the ongoing gunwalking back in April of 2010, he regrets that he learned we were sending thousands of guns to Mexican criminals and responded, apparently, by saying, "Hmmm" and moving on with his day. He did not respond, he says, by putting a stop to this madness, nor by telling his bosses about it, because our government sending thousands of guns to criminals is really a pretty unremarkable event. Or something.
Now that there is proof he knew of the ongoing gunwalking back in April of 2010, he regrets that he learned we were sending thousands of guns to Mexican criminals and responded, apparently, by saying, "Hmmm" and moving on with his day. He did not respond, he says, by putting a stop to this madness, nor by telling his bosses about it, because our government sending thousands of guns to criminals is really a pretty unremarkable event. Or something.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Wait a second, didn't we hear earlier that Lanny Breuer signs off on hundreds of wiretap warrants, sometimes without even reading them, and that he didn't know the specifics of the Fast and Furious investigation or that guns were being allowed to walk?
Now that there is actual documentation where one of his deputies is telling him that guns walked in Wide Receiver and that the case could be embarrassing, Breuer suddenly remembers that ATF in Arizona was walking guns and he has regrets about not informing his superiors?
Looks like Breuer is the latest guy going under the bus in an attempt to stop the contagion from spreading higher into the DOJ - and once again, they try to emphasize the Bush-era connections of Wide Receiver. Are they that stupid? The only way that works as a strategy is if nobody digs any further than "Bush-era" when looking at Wide Receiver. If you actually compare Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious side by side, it makes Fast and Furious look about a thousand times worse. You can at least claim that Wide Receiver tried to track and interdict the weapons and was simply unsuccessful (and was called off after it lost 200 weapons).
With Fast and Furious though, you have no attempts to track at all. Agents ORDERED not to interdict the weapons on several occasions. Agents dealing firearms DIRECT to criminals. And then there is that whole "lost around 2,000 weapons over the course of several years" thing. And since the same agents were involved in both cases, you've got that whole "If Wide Receiver was such a failure, why on earth did you start Fast and Furious?" question.
Surely someone in the Administration has got to realize that is going to be a really ugly comparison if it ever gets made in mainstream press.
Now that there is actual documentation where one of his deputies is telling him that guns walked in Wide Receiver and that the case could be embarrassing, Breuer suddenly remembers that ATF in Arizona was walking guns and he has regrets about not informing his superiors?
Looks like Breuer is the latest guy going under the bus in an attempt to stop the contagion from spreading higher into the DOJ - and once again, they try to emphasize the Bush-era connections of Wide Receiver. Are they that stupid? The only way that works as a strategy is if nobody digs any further than "Bush-era" when looking at Wide Receiver. If you actually compare Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious side by side, it makes Fast and Furious look about a thousand times worse. You can at least claim that Wide Receiver tried to track and interdict the weapons and was simply unsuccessful (and was called off after it lost 200 weapons).
With Fast and Furious though, you have no attempts to track at all. Agents ORDERED not to interdict the weapons on several occasions. Agents dealing firearms DIRECT to criminals. And then there is that whole "lost around 2,000 weapons over the course of several years" thing. And since the same agents were involved in both cases, you've got that whole "If Wide Receiver was such a failure, why on earth did you start Fast and Furious?" question.
Surely someone in the Administration has got to realize that is going to be a really ugly comparison if it ever gets made in mainstream press.
I think CBS news got it wrong when they labeled gunwalking an investigative tactic
I guess they are labeling it that because that's what DOJ is telling them it is, but was it ever used before F&F ? They make it sound like it was an existing albeit controversial tactic - when that's not the case. I don't think it was a tactic before F&F. Certainly not a proven tactic.
Could it be said of Operation Wide Reciever that guns "walked" ? They were traced - which is different.
It's semantics, but semantics is sometimes half of the debate, which is why anti-abortion folks want to be knowns as "pro-life" and the other side wants to be known as "pro-choice".
I wish someone would call them to task on exactly how they can call it a investigative tactic.
I guess they are labeling it that because that's what DOJ is telling them it is, but was it ever used before F&F ? They make it sound like it was an existing albeit controversial tactic - when that's not the case. I don't think it was a tactic before F&F. Certainly not a proven tactic.
Could it be said of Operation Wide Reciever that guns "walked" ? They were traced - which is different.
It's semantics, but semantics is sometimes half of the debate, which is why anti-abortion folks want to be knowns as "pro-life" and the other side wants to be known as "pro-choice".
I wish someone would call them to task on exactly how they can call it a investigative tactic.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Also, done during the Bush years.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/67303.html
See the top paragraph.
Breuer is Holder's Scooter, it seems.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/67303.html
See the top paragraph.
Breuer is Holder's Scooter, it seems.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Isnt it amazing how higher Justice was sacrosanct and in no way involved as recently as September 2011 and now we learn that Breuer knew about gunwalking as early as April 2010 (if you believe his somewhat self-serving account of events); yet it never occurred to him to tell his boss of that knowledge as his boss was eagerly declaring his innocence?
Now Breuer suddenly has an attack of conscience the day before his testimony and declares that he let his boss defend him publically, even though he knew the statements AG Holder made were false, and never thought to tell his boss that he was relaying false info.
And I love the Politico take on Wide Receiver as well... talk about a nasty game of telephone. According to the FFL who participated in Wide Receiver, he sold about 450 guns total during Operations Wide Receiver. In one single case, 279 (going on memory for this number, see earlier in thread for exact number with source) guns were sold and only 47 successfully interdicted. Without knowing the number interdicted in the other cases, it is impossible to say how many guns walked; but Politico went with 400, the maximum possible. OK, fair enough.
Next Politico characterizes Wide Receiver as "allowing" guns to be walked. In fact, Wide Receiver had tracking devices in the weapons and attempted to interdict the guns. They continually failed in this because the smugglers had obtained the numbers of ATF surveillance aircraft and would make their run when the aircraft refueled (dirty ATF employee in Arizona anyone?).
And Politico is remarkably silent on exactly why the Wide Receiver investigation ended in 2007; but the Obama Administration brought charges in 2009. According to the FFL involved in Wide Receiver, this was because the ATF lied to the AUSA and the AUSA refused to bring charges as a result. The Obama Administration's new AUSA made the decision to bring charges in 2009, when they took over. If you read the Politico report, it made it sound as if the Obama administration discovered this nefarious Wide Receiver plot and did the best it could with a bad situation. And yet Politico skips right over the obvious question, "If this was such a bad idea/disaster, why did you remove several of the safeguards in this operation and then let the same exact people run another operation with an even wider reach?"
I'd love to see Lanny Breuer sit down with Sharyl Attkisson and tell his story. That would never happen though because Attkisson has done more than 10 minutes of research on the story and would know when she is being lied to.
Breuer might have done better as Holder's Scooter if they had not tried to make Melson, Newell, Hurley and Burke into Scooter first. And of course the timeline and complexity of this operation mean the likelihood that there is a critical piece of evidence raising awkward questions for someone above Breuer is much higher than it was in Scooter's case (i.e. the Newell-O'Reilly connection). Ultimately, I am thinking this will be more like Dan Restrepo as Obama's Oliver North.
I am enjoying watching the all too predictable pattern of "deny deny deny" and then grabbing the guy who has the most incriminating connections revealed so far and throwing him into the wood chipper in hopes of ending the investigation though. You might almost get the impression that Issa and Grassley were releasing documents in a systematic manner designed to encourage that kind of response.
Now Breuer suddenly has an attack of conscience the day before his testimony and declares that he let his boss defend him publically, even though he knew the statements AG Holder made were false, and never thought to tell his boss that he was relaying false info.
And I love the Politico take on Wide Receiver as well... talk about a nasty game of telephone. According to the FFL who participated in Wide Receiver, he sold about 450 guns total during Operations Wide Receiver. In one single case, 279 (going on memory for this number, see earlier in thread for exact number with source) guns were sold and only 47 successfully interdicted. Without knowing the number interdicted in the other cases, it is impossible to say how many guns walked; but Politico went with 400, the maximum possible. OK, fair enough.
Next Politico characterizes Wide Receiver as "allowing" guns to be walked. In fact, Wide Receiver had tracking devices in the weapons and attempted to interdict the guns. They continually failed in this because the smugglers had obtained the numbers of ATF surveillance aircraft and would make their run when the aircraft refueled (dirty ATF employee in Arizona anyone?).
And Politico is remarkably silent on exactly why the Wide Receiver investigation ended in 2007; but the Obama Administration brought charges in 2009. According to the FFL involved in Wide Receiver, this was because the ATF lied to the AUSA and the AUSA refused to bring charges as a result. The Obama Administration's new AUSA made the decision to bring charges in 2009, when they took over. If you read the Politico report, it made it sound as if the Obama administration discovered this nefarious Wide Receiver plot and did the best it could with a bad situation. And yet Politico skips right over the obvious question, "If this was such a bad idea/disaster, why did you remove several of the safeguards in this operation and then let the same exact people run another operation with an even wider reach?"
I'd love to see Lanny Breuer sit down with Sharyl Attkisson and tell his story. That would never happen though because Attkisson has done more than 10 minutes of research on the story and would know when she is being lied to.
Breuer might have done better as Holder's Scooter if they had not tried to make Melson, Newell, Hurley and Burke into Scooter first. And of course the timeline and complexity of this operation mean the likelihood that there is a critical piece of evidence raising awkward questions for someone above Breuer is much higher than it was in Scooter's case (i.e. the Newell-O'Reilly connection). Ultimately, I am thinking this will be more like Dan Restrepo as Obama's Oliver North.
I am enjoying watching the all too predictable pattern of "deny deny deny" and then grabbing the guy who has the most incriminating connections revealed so far and throwing him into the wood chipper in hopes of ending the investigation though. You might almost get the impression that Issa and Grassley were releasing documents in a systematic manner designed to encourage that kind of response.
Last edited:
HarrySchell
New member
Lanny Breuer's "regrets" are like Barney Frank's admission of being "overly optimistic" about Fannie and Freddie's financial condition..."please believe I am just stupid and made a mistake anyone else would have, in the same circumstances".
The country is in the best of hands.
The Obama Administration Echo Chamber that assures every problem results from some other source may begin to crack a little on F+F.
The country is in the best of hands.
The Obama Administration Echo Chamber that assures every problem results from some other source may begin to crack a little on F+F.
http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/01/s...ontrol-is-real-problem-with-fast-and-furious/
I shouldn't be boggled by anything anymore, but this really takes the cake.
"Perhaps mistakes were made". Seriously. Apparently the problem is that our lax gun laws allowed thousands of firearms to march across the border, not that the ATF caused the laws to be bypassed. Go figure.
I shouldn't be boggled by anything anymore, but this really takes the cake.
Diane Feinstein said:
"Perhaps mistakes were made". Seriously. Apparently the problem is that our lax gun laws allowed thousands of firearms to march across the border, not that the ATF caused the laws to be bypassed. Go figure.